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The one thing that keeps WG games from reaching the very good status.

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MM +/- 2 with large power gaps between the tiers.  They did this with WOT, and now here in WOWS.  Do they think this is funny?  Higher tier battles once in awhile can be handled and may be fun, but I don't log on to play tier 10 games in my tier 8 ship 70% - 80% of the time.  Is this so you are forced to want to just play tier 10 where it becomes more expensive?  Fanboys will rah-rah like cheerleaders and say they are a teir 8 hero in every tier 10 game, but nope, if a tier 8 were made to play tier 10 then they would just call it a tier 10.

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Always thought the pay to win part is the hindrance. As the game goes on and more people have more tiered ships, WOWS will follow WoT and do only 1 tier difference or same tier MM.

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WOT moved to +/- 1 ??  Are you sure, t8 tanks still get t10 battles??  Is this new?

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15 minutes ago, ESX said:

WOT moved to +/- 1 ??  Are you sure, t8 tanks still get t10 battles??  Is this new?

Yeah, WoT did NOT move to + - 1. 

+ - 1 would help immensely with the enjoyment of these games though.  The power creep up 2 tiers is quite alot of in these games.  T6-8 in WOWS, your T6 goes from having armor vs T7s to T8s getting big enough guns to just autopen you.  Basically the same thing in WoT.  T1-3 is fine, but T4 in a T6?  T6 has every advantage, and is when tanks get mildly serious.  Then T6s get in with T8s and T8s are when tanks actually get serious and actually become powerful.  T6s vs them is just a shooting gallery.  T6s dont come with enough power to effectively fight that up up.

+ - 2 tiers in WG Games basically makes the top tier able to brainlessly punk everything below it, and it really makes it not fun to be the lower tier.  + - 1 tier would be awesome.

But the other thing that would make WG games more enjoyable is REDUCING the insane amounts of RNG variance. 

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3 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

Yeah, WoT did NOT move to + - 1. 

+ - 1 would help immensely with the enjoyment of these games though.  The power creep up 2 tiers is quite alot of in these games.  T6-8 in WOWS, your T6 goes from having armor vs T7s to T8s getting big enough guns to just autopen you.  Basically the same thing in WoT.  T1-3 is fine, but T4 in a T6?  T6 has every advantage, and is when tanks get mildly serious.  Then T6s get in with T8s and T8s are when tanks actually get serious and actually become powerful.  T6s vs them is just a shooting gallery.  T6s dont come with enough power to effectively fight that up up.

+ - 2 tiers in WG Games basically makes the top tier able to brainlessly punk everything below it, and it really makes it not fun to be the lower tier.  + - 1 tier would be awesome.

But the other thing that would make WG games more enjoyable is REDUCING the insane amounts of RNG variance. 

This exactly, too bad the whole community does not see things this clear.

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There is absolutely zero comparison between the power gap in WOT versus the power gap in WOWS.  I have never felt useless in WOWS, even as the lone bottom tier in a game where everyone is +2.  I always feel useful.  WOT is another story altogether.  

Is constantly facing +2 frustrating?  Yes.  We all want to be top of the food chain.  But WOWS is competitive at +2 whereas WOT is often, not.  

Let's not be overly dramatic and exaggerate past the point of people taking a legitimate argument (that its not fun to be constantly uptiered) seriously by arguing that being top dog in ships is to brainlessly punk everything below it.  Don't go and throw your credibility away by saying stupid stuff.

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I have T10 ships and T8 ships. Neither guarantees a win. I have no problem taking some T8s into a T10 match. If nothing else one can learn from the experience. 

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13 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

+ - 1 tier would be awesome.

But the other thing that would make WG games more enjoyable is REDUCING the insane amounts of RNG variance. 

on the days when a full broadside from my kurrfur misses entirely (except for the one hit that bounces), with about 3 shells over, 3 under, one forward, one aft, while shooting at a grounded, broadside DM at 13.4 km, it's hard to push the LMB again. 

2 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

There is absolutely zero comparison between the power gap in WOT versus the power gap in WOWS.  I have never felt useless in WOWS, even as the lone bottom tier in a game where everyone is +2.  I always feel useful.  WOT is another story altogether.  

Is constantly facing +2 frustrating?  Yes.  We all want to be top of the food chain.  But WOWS is competitive at +2 whereas WOT is often, not.  

Let's not be overly dramatic and exaggerate past the point of people taking a legitimate argument (that its not fun to be constantly uptiered) seriously by arguing that being top dog in ships is to brainlessly punk everything below it.  Don't go and throw your credibility away by saying stupid stuff.

not arguing the comparison between WoT and WoWs, as I have never played WoT. there have been a lot of battles in which I felt the only thing I could offer my team was drawing potential damage. while being focus fired down by CAs behind rocks, that I couldn't see, or couldn't hit.

I am nowhere close to your skill level, you might consider the game plays a bit differently for those of us that are functioning at lower levels.

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7 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

There is absolutely zero comparison between the power gap in WOT versus the power gap in WOWS.  I have never felt useless in WOWS, even as the lone bottom tier in a game where everyone is +2.  I always feel useful.  WOT is another story altogether.  

Is constantly facing +2 frustrating?  Yes.  We all want to be top of the food chain.  But WOWS is competitive at +2 whereas WOT is often, not.  

Let's not be overly dramatic and exaggerate past the point of people taking a legitimate argument (that its not fun to be constantly uptiered) seriously by arguing that being top dog in ships is to brainlessly punk everything below it.  Don't go and throw your credibility away by saying stupid stuff.

Yes, WOT is way worse to play at +2, however, it does not give bad game design an excuse.

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1 hour ago, ESX said:

MM +/- 2 with large power gaps between the tiers.  They did this with WOT, and now here in WOWS.  Do they think this is funny?  Higher tier battles once in awhile can be handled and may be fun, but I don't log on to play tier 10 games in my tier 8 ship 70% - 80% of the time.  Is this so you are forced to want to just play tier 10 where it becomes more expensive?  Fanboys will rah-rah like cheerleaders and say they are a teir 8 hero in every tier 10 game, but nope, if a tier 8 were made to play tier 10 then they would just call it a tier 10.

Why post this in a questioning tone and then partake in condescension against anyone who was going to answer your questions and argue against you? 

Pointless op is pointless. 

Edited by Ducky_shot

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44 minutes ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

There is absolutely zero comparison between the power gap in WOT versus the power gap in WOWS.  I have never felt useless in WOWS, even as the lone bottom tier in a game where everyone is +2.  I always feel useful.  WOT is another story altogether.  

Is constantly facing +2 frustrating?  Yes.  We all want to be top of the food chain.  But WOWS is competitive at +2 whereas WOT is often, not.  

Let's not be overly dramatic and exaggerate past the point of people taking a legitimate argument (that its not fun to be constantly uptiered) seriously by arguing that being top dog in ships is to brainlessly punk everything below it.  Don't go and throw your credibility away by saying stupid stuff.

Ok, its not quite brainlessly punk, but when the T8 has the advantage of being able to just short of completely ignore the T6 ship's armor, it gives you an insanely heavy advantage that honestly the MM shouldnt give you.  You as the T8 certainly dont have to be that afraid of the T6.  Obviously, yeah, you cant just go full broadside, but still, ignoring the armor, yeah, its basically like having WoT T8 gold rounds, where the other guy is stuck using his T6 standard rounds against your T8 armor.

Either change MM to + - 1 so T8s arent facing ships they can ignore the armor on, or buff ships so their armor cant be ignored.

Even in coops, all the times my Arizona was having to face down all the AI Tirpitz and North Carolina's cuz my 'player' T8s utterly failed, the AI basically brainlessly charged me and the best I could hope for was good RNG and some fancy rudder work.  In any other ship, it woulda been an utter stomp every time, but AZ is both semi tough, agile and has good guns.  Even then, I couldnt beat the NC, that baby would just pen, pen, pen, citadel, dead and there wasnt much I could do about it.  She moves faster, shoots further, loads faster, turns her guns faster....yeah, the T8s basically hold every single advantage.  T8s certainly dont have to work as hard...its almost like a cheap [edited]gank fest. 

My own times when I played Alabama, one of my last games I basically reversed roles and charged and followed an AI QE, she didnt even really dent me, but yeah, the QE got [edited]...it certainly felt pretty braindead.

I imagine a player just 'loads HE for skill" and spams away.....which is a necessary evil due to the crap [edited] + - 2 tier spread.  Cuz those lowly T6s need a way to hurt the T8s...well, why not just make it + - 1 MM and then you dont need cheap gimmicks like HE and fire....

Edited by KnightFandragon

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MM has always been an issue, and now with the legendary upgrades, being in a tier 10 battle with a tier 8 ship is even a bigger struggle now. If they think there are enough players to do ranked battles with tier 10, I think tier has enough tier 10 players for an exclusive MM. Tier 10 was always my favorite tier to play and I wouldn't mind waiting like 30 seconds to one minute to have a full tier 10 match, it will be more challenging to play(in a good way) and it will be a lot easier for other tiers to play.

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46 minutes ago, NashW8 said:

I have T10 ships and T8 ships. Neither guarantees a win. I have no problem taking some T8s into a T10 match. If nothing else one can learn from the experience. 

Yeah, well, T8 in a T10 isnt quite as bad as T6 in T8, T4 in T6,  T7 in T9 or T5 in T7.  T8 ships are actually quite good, they have armor that is heavy enough to resist incoming fire, alot of health and handle almost as well.  Outside the Yamato and its lolpen guns and having like 15-30k less health, the T8s are almost on par with T10s.  T8 ships have basically the same guns as T10s, barring better gun handling.   Im not gunna knock that having a hefty health advantage is quite the bonus, but the rest of the ship is basically on par.

Its not quite that well balanced down the tiers.  T4s are pretty bad ships, and T6 is when ships start to get serious.  They start to get decent armor, good power, decent range and adequate AA.  T4s are still pretty pitiful, so a T6 vs a T4?  Its almost the same story as a T8 vs a T6, the T6 is going to roflstomp the T4.  T4s and T5s make for a nice little battle, both tiers are just about equally garbage.  T5 vs T6, the T6s have quite the edge, but the T5s can still win.  T6 vs T7, the 7s again hold a minor edge, but T6s can easily face down T7s.  T7s can do ok vs T8s but there is a fair power jump at T7 to 8.

Edited by KnightFandragon

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2 hours ago, NeutralState said:

Always thought the pay to win part is the hindrance. As the game goes on and more people have more tiered ships, WOWS will follow WoT and do only 1 tier difference or same tier MM.

No they won't.

1 hour ago, Pope_Shizzle said:

There is absolutely zero comparison between the power gap in WOT versus the power gap in WOWS.  I have never felt useless in WOWS, even as the lone bottom tier in a game where everyone is +2.  I always feel useful.  WOT is another story altogether.  

This exactly ... regardless of the tier of my opponent in WoW I know I can damage any ship I run into, two tier MM or no; you sure as hell can't say that about WoT.

1 hour ago, Spud_butt said:

I am nowhere close to your skill level, you might consider the game plays a bit differently for those of us that are functioning at lower levels.

If you play even marginally well you play as well as I do, and I guarantee you that it's not the ship, or the tier ... it's the Captain driving her.

1 hour ago, ESX said:

Yes, WOT is way worse to play at +2, however, it does not give bad game design an excuse.

Thing is, it's NOT a bad design; it's working as intended, making players want to get that next ship one tier higher so next match they will be better able to affect the game.

48 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

You as the T8 certainly dont have to be that afraid of the T6. 

You've obviously never played against a good DD player, or a good cruiser main who knows where to hide.

50 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

Even in coops, all the times my Arizona was having to face down all the AI Tirpitz and North Carolina's cuz my 'player' T8s utterly failed, the AI basically brainlessly charged me and the best I could hope for was good RNG and some fancy rudder work.  In any other ship, it woulda been an utter stomp every time, but AZ is both semi tough, agile and has good guns.  Even then, I couldnt beat the NC, that baby would just pen, pen, pen, citadel, dead and there wasnt much I could do about it.  She moves faster, shoots further, loads faster, turns her guns faster....yeah, the T8s basically hold every single advantage.  T8s certainly dont have to work as hard...its almost like a cheap [edited]gank fest. 

Why were you alone, because if you were staying with the fleet they would be helping you. And do remember, MM doesn't guarantee anyone a win.

46 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

T4s are pretty bad ships

Tier 4 ships never see anything higher than tier 5, which is nothing.

47 minutes ago, KnightFandragon said:

so a T6 vs a T4? 

Never happen; you're spouting nonsense. And as far as tier 5 vs tier 7, ask any tier 7 BB player how bad he wants to see a Fujin on the enemy team.

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While I don’t mind the + - 2 MM, I merely change between threatening and supportive roles based on my place in the spread, when WOT had the Frontline mode and everyone was in T8s due to its restriction, it was a slice of heaven.

Again, I dont’t mind the current spread, but if it changes, I’ll embrace it.  But for you hopeful dreamers out there, while you wait for a change, I do suggest at least making sure you are consciously changing your playstyle depending upon where you sit in the spread (this includes top-tiers throwing their weight around rather than playing like they are bottom-tier).

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You know this is a terrible idea that does nothing about the problem but If WG wanted to make a bucket-load of money they could sell tokens which you could use to ensure your ship is top-tier in a battle.

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That one thing is complainers complaining rather than just enjoying the mayhem

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2 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

You know this is a terrible idea that does nothing about the problem but If WG wanted to make a bucket-load of money they could sell tokens which you could use to ensure your ship is top-tier in a battle.

I actually wouldn’t mind being bottom tiered in that game, as anyone that can’t cope if they aren’t top tier, is going to be an easier target for me. Like others have said, bottom tier is about adjusting play style to be a little more careful, just survive early on, then making an impact from mid-game onwards once high tiers are distracted. It is more than possible to get great XP for those games and make a real difference. 

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9 hours ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

You know this is a terrible idea that does nothing about the problem but If WG wanted to make a bucket-load of money they could sell tokens which you could use to ensure your ship is top-tier in a battle.

you're right, it is a terrible ideal, and WG already has that system in play, it's called T10. you will be top tier. but it's not that simple.

 playing T10 and at best a mediocre player (most of my battle lately are T10), i have to use a premium account, credit flags and occasionally bring the Missouri (which is nearly always MMed into T10) to break even.

with adjusted awards, it's not an automatic bankruptcy level, but tokens are involved, at least for me.

10 hours ago, Umikami said:

If you play even marginally well you play as well as I do, and I guarantee you that it's not the ship, or the tier ... it's the Captain driving her.

Thing is, it's NOT a bad design; it's working as intended, making players want to get that next ship one tier higher so next match they will be better able to affect the game.

Umikami, my overall 'win' rate is ~47% , and the last couple weeks it's been hovering around 30% win rate most days. I was responding to Pope_Shizzle, who is a great player. the unicum, and super unicum players are often times 20 full points over my pitiful win rate. in 5k battles, this means they experience 1000 more victories than I do. this results in significant differences in xp and credit awards. also, they have heard 'the enemy is about to win' and 'the enemy has taken the lead' THOUSANDS of times less than me.

there is NO WAY this game plays the same for me and the super unicum players. I do not expect empathy from those players, and I do not expect even an average or slightly above average player to get it either. even though it is a butt simple concept.

I agree it has worked to make me want to get that next ship and head toward top tier. that's a marketing strategy, and has been well done. from my perspective it has not been a gameplay strategy that has been well done. I am typically in the top 1/3 of my team after battle, very rarely at the bottom. also very rarely do I carry a team, and that's what the current MM and RNG requires in order for me to bring up my winrates noticeably.

do not feel the MM +/-2 is generating many issues in gameplay. fail divisions with -3, -4 tier ships do NOT typically result in the ultra low tier players scoring dead last on the team, in fact, have seen exactly opposite that most times. the OP was not on target in identifying MM +2/-2 as the culprit.

wide ranging skill levels at all tiers, including seal clubbers at lower tiers, combined with wide ranges of RNG, piss poor team play, and fatal nerfing of my favorite ships (WG has a 100% track record of this at this point) has kept this game from making the good to great leap. 

Edited by Spud_butt

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Wow.  :Smile_facepalm:

If people actually think that +/-2 MM is that "bad"?  Yes, Tier VIII gets shafted a lot.  Especially Bismarck's (...however, brand new players in Tirpitzs' deserve it).  But the rest, no.

There are far worse things that happen in this game than a Tier VI meeting a Tier VIII.  Besides, fighting high tier ships yields advantages of earning more XP and credits than with fighting a same-tier ship.  Not to mention the satisfaction of performing well against or actually beating them, extra payoff or not.  But we never hear the whiners say anything about that.  Nope.  Wonder why...?

"If I'm not performing, I don't need to improve.  The game just needs to be lowered to my standard."

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13 hours ago, NeutralState said:

Always thought the pay to win part is the hindrance. As the game goes on and more people have more tiered ships, WOWS will follow WoT and do only 1 tier difference or same tier MM.

P2W would mean, that buying something makes you unbeatable by those who purchased nothing. Since every premium ship that exists can be defeated by non-premium ships of same tier and lower ship, there is no p2w system in WoWS.

So until there is a premium ship that can only be sunk by another premium ship, this game is not P2W. stop throwing around words and phrases that don't apply.

 

 

+2/-2 MM is not a problem. I am also pretty sure WoT is also still +2/-2 MM

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12 hours ago, ESX said:

Yes, WOT is way worse to play at +2, however, it does not give bad game design an excuse.

There's this thing called "The Queue", perhaps you've heard of it?

 

WG designed the MM to give the most people the best shot at a battle in the shortest period of time. No, I don't always enjoy being slammed into a team with 8 T10's in my T8, however, I enjoy waiting a hell of a lot less.

 

People that constantly complain about being uptiered are people who don't understand how to use their ships in the different environment.

 

Case in point: One time, we had an accidental fail div with a T8 and 2 T7's, we just weren't paying attention. For our lack of attention, we got a battle with 7 T10's per side. We put on our best "COME AT ME BRO!" faces, and took it to them. We won, with us holding spots 1, 2, and 3. State of mind has a lot to do with how well we play.

 

You know what uptiering means to me? A chance for glorious amounts of extra XP the other guys don't have a shot at.

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1 hour ago, Spud_butt said:

there is NO WAY this game plays the same for me and the super unicum players.

The game plays the EXACTLY the same for me as it does you, @Pope_Shizzle, @Radar_X, or Binky the Wonder Noob. We all play the same ships, with the same options, on the same maps. The ONLY difference is the players who Captain said ships. If you are really have that much difficulty with +2/-2 MM, change your play style, because in the final analysis that is all you really control in the game.

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16 minutes ago, Umikami said:

The game plays the EXACTLY the same for me as it does you, @Pope_Shizzle, @Radar_X, or Binky the Wonder Noob. We all play the same ships, with the same options, on the same maps. The ONLY difference is the players who Captain said ships. If you are really have that much difficulty with +2/-2 MM, change your play style, because in the final analysis that is all you really control in the game.

you put 2 riders on the similar motorcycles, one is highly skilled, the other has just got their license. additionally, the one recently licensed has had a bit of bad luck (RNG) and been down a few times. they are driving on highway 17, between santa cruz and san jose, ca, during the pineapple express rainy season. there has been a lot of construction, some of the roads are oily with new pavement, there is mud from slides, and bumper to bumper traffic moving well over the posted speed limit, along with semis blocking the slow lane. there are frequent accidents, and cyclists that are splitting lanes (legal in CA) at high speed (not so legal, but hard to catch them). CA highway patrol stopped patrolling it years ago, they just investigate accidents and send for ambulances and tow trucks now.

that ride is NOT going to be the same for both riders. BECAUSE of the riders skill, one is going to be happy to survive, the other will be having fun, and seeing how fast they can get it done. one rider may use different tires, and on the bad sections of road, that may make a lot of difference on that particular ride. chances are, it's going to be the skilled rider. the skilled rider is more likely to have more riding styles available to him, and be able to shift riding style as needed. which rider will be on the right bike? experienced rider may be able to choose from his gixxer with the sticky rain tires, R series with the metzelers, or low rider that oozes cool all over the place, the novice rider has his sportster. to the skilled rider, the weather, construction, other vehicles on the road are not impediments, obstacles nor challenges, they are something that can be used to advantage.

we use the same options, but they are not always the best for the battle.  we show up in the same ships, but our skill level in those ships effects our ability to respond to the weaknesses, and take advantage of the strengths of those ships. our ability to adapt to the battle, or even recognize what is happening in battle overall, is determined by our skill and experience levels. are you actually saying a super unicum player 'sees' and responds to the same things a below average player recognizes (or more likely does not recognize) and responds to?

you are talking out of your [edited].

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