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Lert

So here's why tier 8 gets into tier 10 battles so often

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Out of the top 10 ships played the most over the past month, 6 are tier 10, 3 are tier 8 and 1 is tier 7.

Not sure if this includes CW, but honestly, do CW matches really comprise enough battles played in tier 10 ships to affect the list very much? I doubt it.

Now why is tier 10 so popular to play? Several reasons I can think of ...

  • Stagnant playerbase. Despite all the "I'm leaving foreveeeeeeeer!" throwing-toys-out-of-their-prams whine threads, player retention is high, leading to a lot of players relatively having a lot of end-tier ships
  • Tier 10 permaflages. The playerbase whined about tier 10s being too expensive to play, so WG introduced ways to make playing them non-stop affordable. And this is the result. Plus, credits are just plain easy to come by if you try hard enough.
  • Tier 8 players being tired of playing against tier 10s so playing their tier 10s instead, thus fueling the abundance of tier 10 ships in queueueueueue and leading to more tier 10 battles in a self-perpetuating loop.
  • Testosterone-infused manliness. Surely, driving the biggest, baddest ship in the game makes you more manly than those puny lower tier baby-botes, right? Right.

As long as tier 10 remains profitable and there's this air of "playing tier 10 makes me a more legitimate player / real players only care about top tier" remains, it's not going to change, no matter how much complaining there is about tier 8s getting uptiered to tier 10 all (less than half actually) of the time.

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You left off the biggest and imo primary reason:

  • Always being top tier

It's nice to not be uptiered. I have about twice as many tier X games as any other tier, so I guess I'm partially responsible for this type of thing.

If I could play my Tier 8 boats and never get uptiered I'd play tons more tier VIII and probably rebuy some ships. But I can't. So I play them less. Except the Massachusetts. I'll play that forever hahhahaa. 

 

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4 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

If I could play my Tier 8 boats and never get uptiered I'd play tons more tier VIII and probably rebuy some ships

You mean, against tier 6 ships all the time?

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

You mean, against tier 6 ships all the time?

In games with a combination of 6/7/8s (maybe no 6s).

I've played ~25 games in the Mass. Literally one game was against tier 6s and a major percentage have been tier X.

 

There are a lot of tier 8 boats I'd love to play more (but never do) if I knew they'd never see tier X. Heck, I'd be happy to play them even if I knew it was only at most IX.

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Changing MM to +- 1 tier would make the game a lot more enjoyable - particularly to someone just getting into a T8 - no upgrades etc ...  

WG should do this asap. and some will say, well queue will be too long - So WG should adjust the queue to similar to the test server - 2-3 minutes wait for full team, then as time rolls towards 5 min maximum reduce team sizes. 9, 7, even 4v4.  I think this is completely brilliant in the test server and adds a huge variety to the game. 

Every 4v4 battle I have been in, a little communication has some of the best team work I have ever been involved with. 

As to economics, so folks don't go bankrupt as the ship count drops and so does the damage - simple to add a multiplier for the XP and credit earning 

Damage remains similar I have found. 

The number of games with much smaller teams is pretty rare, but super fun, and a lot more evenly matched. 

This needs to happen. 

 

Good Hunting! 

Karandar

 

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I play only tier 10s because I have permaflages on all of them and easy to grind lots of elite cmdr exp with the 100% bonus. Except for tier 9 no other camo offers such bonus. Would start a new line grind only when I have enough xp for a 19 point captain (have 14 till now) so I can have a complete build. 

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4 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

There are a lot of tier 8 boats I'd love to play more (but never do) if I knew they'd never see tier X. Heck, I'd be happy to play them even if I knew it was only at most IX.

Then, like you said yourself,

11 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

so I guess I'm partially responsible for this type of thing.

I understand it though, I really do. It's part of that self-perpetuating cycle I mentioned in my OP. The more people refuse to play their tier 8s, the less tier 8s there will be to populate MM and the more the remaining ones get pulled into tier 10 battles.

I fully understand your mindset. It's just one I do not agree with.

Please do not think I'm ragging on you personally, I'm mostly just quoting you to demonstrate the mindset that is at the same time the result, and partially cause of, the problem.

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6 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

In games with a combination of 6/7/8s (maybe no 6s).

I've played ~25 games in the Mass. Literally one game was against tier 6s and a major percentage have been tier X.

 

There are a lot of tier 8 boats I'd love to play more (but never do) if I knew they'd never see tier X. Heck, I'd be happy to play them even if I knew it was only at most IX.

I completely agree. My Bismark, and the new Massachusetts, are 2 of my favorite BB's - cruisers like Hipper, and many DD's at T8 are some of my favorite ships.  I do understand that damaging T10's gains extra XP, but the improvements from 8-10 are huge. If a T8 vs 10 match is not in a map with a lot of islands to help limit some incoming fire, it is quickly a bad day... and it forces the T8's to fight at the edge of their range or be murdered by the big guns. That is not enjoyable. Period. 

As I have posted several times, MM needs to be changed to +- 1 tier. Adopting the test server MM would be brilliant. That is, after a set time, the team sizes shrink. 9,7, even 4v4 - WG can adjust credit and XP ratio to team size somewhat so the smallest matches are not uneconomical - Seriously promotes better team play as well. 

Good Hunting

Karandar

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7 minutes ago, Lert said:

Out of the top 10 ships played the most over the past month, 6 are tier 10, 3 are tier 8 and 1 is tier 7.

Not sure if this includes CW, but honestly, do CW matches really comprise enough battles played in tier 10 ships to affect the list very much? I doubt it.

Now why is tier 10 so popular to play? Several reasons I can think of ...

  • Stagnant playerbase. Despite all the "I'm leaving foreveeeeeeeer!" throwing-toys-out-of-their-prams whine threads, player retention is high, leading to a lot of players relatively having a lot of end-tier ships
  • Tier 10 permaflages. The playerbase whined about tier 10s being too expensive to play, so WG introduced ways to make playing them non-stop affordable. And this is the result. Plus, credits are just plain easy to come by if you try hard enough.
  • tier 8 players being tired of playing against tier 10s so playing their tier 10s instead, thus fueling the abundance of tier 10 ships in queueueueueue and leading to more tier 10 battles in a self-perpetuating loop.
  • Testosterone-infused manliness. Surely, driving the biggest, baddest ship in the game makes you more manly than those puny lower tier baby-botes, right? Right.

As long as tier 10 remains profitable and there's this air of "playing tier 10 makes me a more credible player" remains, it's not going to change, no matter how much complaining there is about tier 8s getting uptiered to tier 10 all (less than half actually) of the time.

I am grinding 10-point captains for the future RN DD release (SoonTM ). Since 4 of my six 19-pointers are in T10 ships, with 1 in a T7 and 1 in a T8. I have been playing more than my share of T10 matches in the last week or so. What happened? My win rate went up significantly, even on weekends, DDs included (and I stink in DDs). Looking at my long term stats there is no reasonable explanation for this, even if this is summertime! Plus I don't dominate games as a player at high tiers, finishing mid-level in most games.

This allows me to conclude that you are correct about premium cammos. They allow T10 to be affordable to the average player. I tend more to T5 to T8 games most of the time as i have a fair number of premium ships in that range that are more profitable. One other thing I should mention, when uptiered in my T8s I somehow manage to hold my own against the higher tier ships. Either I am getting better at this (unlikely at my age!) or I have drawn an overdose of potatoes on the opposing teams!

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Just now, Lert said:

Then, like you said yourself,

I understand it though, I really do. It's part of that self-perpetuating cycle I mentioned in my OP. The more people refuse to play their tier 8s, the less tier 8s there will be to populate MM and the more the remaining ones get pulled into tier 10 battles.

I fully understand your mindset. It's just one I do not agree with.

I think though that what it comes down to is other reasons too.

For me personally, I like:

  • Being top tier
    • I'm good enough that being uptiered doesn't kill my game. But I don't enjoy it more than being top tier, generally
  • Having premium camos (so X games net me a lot of commander xp and credits)
    • I don't have enough elite xp yet to make 19 pointers on all my boats I want, and most of the ones I have are home on Xs already
  • Clanwars is tier X so practice in Xs is good
  • I actually like the more strategic gameplay at X normally, excepting roflstomps

If I had say 100M elite commander xp I'd probably put 19 pointers in other tiers more and play them. But... I don't. So I mostly play ships which I am grinding, are tier Xs, or are premiums (where I can use a 19 point captain).

Once you get used to 19pointers too you get spoiled. 

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Unfortunately the reasons for MM the way it is now if posted here will get this post locked and the words deleted for figuring it out... guess they don’t want that

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Interesting thread. 

To be honest a long time ago I was happy to stop at Tier 8 in most lines. But I had this voice in my head keep saying things like:

"Up tiered again! This sucks!"

"Dude, its a video game. Why not be the bully for once in your life."

"You got a ton more games under you now...you can run with the cool kids." 

"Richie is okay, but the Alsace is a monster, and the Republic has REALLY BIG FREAKING GUNS!!! Keep going you wuss!" 

Anyway, I listened to my 12 year old self and have a Tier X I play a ton. I only play the Richie once in awhile anymore. 

Does this make us a greedy bunch that need a reason to play Tier 8 anymore? Not sure... Maybe if we had a Tier 8 that prints money like a Missouri? Naaa the salt would fly with something like that....But Tier 8 does need some help IMO.. 

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Just now, enderland07 said:

Once you get used to 19pointers too you get spoiled. 

You don't need tier 10 to farm elite captain XP. Just a first 19 point captain.

1 minute ago, enderland07 said:
  • Being top tier
    • I'm good enough that being uptiered doesn't kill my game. But I don't enjoy it more than being top tier, generally

That's fair. Personally I like top tier because of the feeling of power, and bottom tier because the pressure to perform is off. I'm a small fish in a big pond and more likely to not be noticed and / or focused, plus if I end middle-of-the-pack I still feel like I've contributed, and ending up top-of-the-pack in a bottom tier ship is a lot more fulfilling than doing so in a top tier ship - there it's 'expected', instead of 'a performance to be proud of'.

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I do not mind taking tier 8 ships into tier X battles, often it just means I can pull much higher damage scores thanks to the enemy HP pool being higher thanks to the X ships in battle.

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3 minutes ago, HMCS_Devilfish said:

Unfortunately the reasons for MM the way it is now if posted here will get this post locked and the words deleted for figuring it out... guess they don’t want that

I've said nothing against the rules. If this thread gets locked, it will be because of the replies, not my OP.

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Just now, Lert said:

You don't need tier 10 to farm elite captain XP. Just a first 19 point captain.

That's fair. Personally I like top tier because of the feeling of power, and bottom tier because the pressure to perform is off. I'm a small fish in a big pond and more likely to not be noticed and / or focused, plus if I end middle-of-the-pack I still feel like I've contributed, and ending up top-of-the-pack in a bottom tier ship is a lot more fulfilling than doing so in a top tier ship - there it's 'expected', instead of 'a performance to be proud of'.

You are correct, you don't need a tier 10 to farm elite XP. Not all of mine are based on Xs right now (I have one on the Chapayev and Cleveland now, too).

But... the way the game works, you either keep your captain per ship and never get a high point captain, which sucks in higher tiers -- OR you move it up the ship with the line. Ultimately putting them on your X as their home base. Combined with premium camos that I have, which provide 2x xp and therefore elite commander xp, playing Xs to grind more elite xp makes the most sense.

I also like carrying games. My X wr is only about 57.5% (worse than both my 8/9 WRs) but in games that are close, TX boats have way more carry potential because of their relative power. Course... you also can get blown out more easily for the same reasons. So that's a mixed blessing.

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And this is why I hope they introduce tier X scenarios sooner rather than later. It won't fix the problem, but hopefully if we get a good rotation of them going (with Narai-level rewards) then it'll decrease the number of tier Xs in randoms.

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3 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

But... the way the game works, you either keep your captain per ship and never get a high point captain, which sucks in higher tiers -- OR you move it up the ship with the line. Ultimately putting them on your X as their home base. Combined with premium camos that I have, which provide 2x xp and therefore elite commander xp, playing Xs to grind more elite xp makes the most sense.

Very good point. I'm a whale with many premium ships - at all tiers - so I play those a lot and the vast majority of my elite captain XP comes from them. Still, whales are a minority, and you make a very valid point.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

Very good point. I'm a whale with many premium ships - at all tiers - so I play those a lot and the vast majority of my elite captain XP comes from them. Still, whales are a minority, and you make a very valid point.

I'm a pretty decent whale, too, but not enough games yet to have that sort of setup (only 4.3k vs your ~11k).  I have a lot of premium ships... I should note too that some of my favorite premium ships are tier 7, which is perhaps interesting to this conversation. Though I really don't play them enough to justify the amount I've spent on them.... lol.

It will be interesting to see what changes in terms of ships I play as I end up with all the Xs and eventually enough elite/19pointers to basically be able to play whatever I want whenever with whatever captain I want.

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Awesome post. Makes perfect sense. Really appreciate the work you put into this.

I play tier 5-10. I don’t really have a problem with 2tier spreads but I only play the few line ships I really enjoy or click with and my premiums. It’s been a while since I had to grind a bone stock ship (learned to save free xp for modules early on) but I remember it sucking when bottom tier, especially B.B. against tier 7-10.

Maybe if the game grows a bit more they can limit the spread without glacial que times. Maybe they can look at server population and limit tier spread during peak times, holidays and weekends. Maybe they already do. I know that when I’m in my 8’s I see just as many games with only 1-2 tier 10 as I do with 3-4.

I know my Cleveland (currently 57% wr with 105 games) gets nuked all the same whether it’s an Amagi or a Montana or for for that matter a Colorado! Lol!

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I wonder if OP was throwing toys out of his crib when he was posting this whine thread.

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1 minute ago, Nagro15 said:

I wonder if OP was throwing toys out of his crib when he was posting this whine thread.

I wonder if Nagro15 even read the thread when he was posting his response.

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24 minutes ago, Lert said:

You don't need tier 10 to farm elite captain XP. Just a first 19 point captain.

That's fair. Personally I like top tier because of the feeling of power, and bottom tier because the pressure to perform is off. I'm a small fish in a big pond and more likely to not be noticed and / or focused, plus if I end middle-of-the-pack I still feel like I've contributed, and ending up top-of-the-pack in a bottom tier ship is a lot more fulfilling than doing so in a top tier ship - there it's 'expected', instead of 'a performance to be proud of'.

just posting to say i have a similar mind set.  If i dont do well, especially if i am one of the few top tier ships in a battle, i feel like i let my team down.   If i top the team in a low tier ship, i feel great.  If i just do so so, i can say i carried my weight.  had a game today where i finished 2nd just behind a shima on ocean in the cleveland.  It felt great knowing i was able to on the worst map in the game, with a ship not suited for open water, to do very well to help carry the team to victory.   had i been  nuked early on, i wouldn't have felt like my loss would of been that much of a detriment due to the reasons above. 

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