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Are Legendary Upgrades Worth the Detriments?

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7 minutes ago, ViirtualSenpai said:

Yamato has probably already been mentioned but in case it hasn't, how does blapping things with increased dispersion sound? Excellent to me! :)

 

The Yamato and Zao upgrades are the only ones I've seen as universally liked.  I had problems about the Yamato upgrade pre-release, then WG snuck in a Yamato turret traverse buff that people don't talk about.  This helps offset the penalty of the upgrade some, so it now looks like a "mandatory" thing to have.  One of these days I'll get it.

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The problem with some of these seems to be their "tradeoffs" are stacked with the loss of the typical equipment bonuses in ways that don't make much sense in terms of changing the way the ship plays.  Yamato and Zao are accepted because they reinforce the core gameplay of the ship and the negatives do not handicap it significantly in performing that role.  Compared to say the Montana one which loses quite a bit to gain effectively nothing in return that supports its core gameplay.

I think WG was overly cautious with the transformational ones and as a result they seem to disappoint more often.  For example, negative anything less than say 80-90% reduction in flooding duration is almost useless because it doesn't change the fact that you are going to flood out without DC either way.  Reduce flooding to five seconds, ok maybe this ship can be played differently and you can ignore torpedoes a bit more.  Reduce it to 30 seconds, you're still going you suffer/die.

They also seem to be handicapped by giving only bonuses that are already on equipment rather than novel bonuses that are truly transformational.  Like torp speed increase, shell velocity, ap pen angles, etc. that could all be played around with.

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2 minutes ago, FlakKnight said:

The problem with some of these seems to be their "tradeoffs" are stacked with the loss of the typical equipment bonuses in ways that don't make much sense in terms of changing the way the ship plays.  Yamato and Zao are accepted because they reinforce the core gameplay of the ship and the negatives do not handicap it significantly in performing that role.  Compared to say the Montana one which loses quite a bit to gain effectively nothing in return that supports its core gameplay.

I think WG was overly cautious with the transformational ones and as a result they seem to disappoint more often.  For example, negative anything less than say 80-90% reduction in flooding duration is almost useless because it doesn't change the fact that you are going to flood out without DC either way.  Reduce flooding to five seconds, ok maybe this ship can be played differently and you can ignore torpedoes a bit more.  Reduce it to 30 seconds, you're still going you suffer/die.

They also seem to be handicapped by giving only bonuses that are already on equipment rather than novel bonuses that are truly transformational.  Like torp speed increase, shell velocity, ap pen angles, etc. that could all be played around with.

I think the problem is that WG sees the Unique Upgrade as providing a different type of play. A ship with a Unique Upgrade would be balanced vs the same ship without the Unique Upgrade. Maybe, WG needs to change out the word upgrade. :Smile_teethhappy:

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2 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

I think the problem is that WG sees the Unique Upgrade as providing a different type of play. A ship with a Unique Upgrade would be balanced vs the same ship without the Unique Upgrade. Maybe, WG needs to change out the word upgrade. :Smile_teethhappy:

Well, that's also a problem.  The fact that normal upgrades have downsides sets up issues with these as well.  So not only do you get a buff that doesn't quite change the way you can play your ship in most cases, you lose out on a similar module, suffer the normal penalty for equipping regular equipment and then on top of that you can get a "legendary" penalty.

 

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13 minutes ago, FlakKnight said:

Well, that's also a problem.  The fact that normal upgrades have downsides sets up issues with these as well.  So not only do you get a buff that doesn't quite change the way you can play your ship in most cases, you lose out on a similar module, suffer the normal penalty for equipping regular equipment and then on top of that you can get a "legendary" penalty.

 

I believe part of the balancing was on what slot the Unique Upgrade went into and what other upgrades it blocked in those slots. That is why some are slot 5 and some are slot 6 IMO.


Take the Worcester UU. It buffs RADAR by 10%, Hydro by 20% and DFAA by 20%, so it is a total upgrade right? But it is in slot 5, which means you will end up with 10.6km stealth instead of 9.5km stealth. You will have normal dispersion for shells fired against you instead of +5% dispersion to shells fired against you. By putting it in slot 5, WG balanced it by you taking the UU for the buffs and skipping the extra stealth or taking the extra stealth and skipping on the consumable buffs. Trade offs.

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On 8/30/2018 at 3:22 PM, Kizarvexis said:

I believe part of the balancing was on what slot the Unique Upgrade went into and what other upgrades it blocked in those slots. That is why some are slot 5 and some are slot 6 IMO.


Take the Worcester UU. It buffs RADAR by 10%, Hydro by 20% and DFAA by 20%, so it is a total upgrade right? But it is in slot 5, which means you will end up with 10.6km stealth instead of 9.5km stealth. You will have normal dispersion for shells fired against you instead of +5% dispersion to shells fired against you. By putting it in slot 5, WG balanced it by you taking the UU for the buffs and skipping the extra stealth or taking the extra stealth and skipping on the consumable buffs. Trade offs.

A game where visibility is key to living or dying, 10.6 km visibility for  10% radar operation is not an acceptable trade off. Especially when you can achieve the same result by slotting in a radar mod 1. The issue with these "legendary" (unique) upgrades us where they are slotted in 5 or 6. That determines if your giving up something or not. Take the Zao upgrade. If you take steering gears mod 3 instead of concealment module, you go from 9.7 km to 10.8 km visibility, in return for 2.9 sec rudder shift. Range is 17.8 km. I operate the Zao as a long range HE spammer, I'm not losing anything in the visibility department. I make up for the loss in range by using a spotter plane. What I gain is the ability to dodge shells, especially if it's 15 km or over. Don't forget the recent 12km torp buff the Zao received. You are now able to stay out of detection range and still fire torps. Those are the reaons why the Zao is pretty popular in ranked this season.

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6 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

A game where visibility is key to living or dying, 10.6 km visibility for  10% radar operation is not an acceptable trade off. Especially when you can achieve the same result by slotting in a radar mod 1. The issue with these "legendary" (unique) upgrades us where they are slotted in 5 or 6. That determines if your giving up something or not. Take the Zao upgrade. If you take steering gears mod 3 instead of concealment module, you go from 9.7 km to 10.8 km visibility, in return for 2.9 sec rudder shift. Range is 17.8 km. I operate the Zao as a long range HE spammer, I'm not losing anything in the visibility department. I make up for the loss in range by using a spotter plane. What I gain is the ability to dodge shells, especially if it's 15 km or over. Don't forget the recent 12km torp buff the Zao received. You are now able to stay out of detection range and still fire torps. Those are the reaons why the Zao is pretty popular in ranked this season.

True, which is why I doubt you will take the Worcester Unique Upgrade. Other people value things differently and will see +4 sec of radar (+12.8s with RADAR in slot 2 as well), +20 sec of Hydro (+44s with Hydro in slot 2) and +8 sec of DFAA (+17.6s with DFAA in slot 2) worth it, especially if they put one of the three special mods in slot 2. That is why WG made the Unique Upgrades, to offer alternatives for people to fit the ship closer to the play style they want.

 

Yep, the Zao offers the long range dodger and more closer fit. Some will want that extra 8% range and won't care about the rudder shift. Some will only want faster guns. Some will use the UU and some won't. 

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7 minutes ago, Kizarvexis said:

True, which is why I doubt you will take the Worcester Unique Upgrade. Other people value things differently and will see +4 sec of radar (+12.8s with RADAR in slot 2 as well), +20 sec of Hydro (+44s with Hydro in slot 2) and +8 sec of DFAA (+17.6s with DFAA in slot 2) worth it, especially if they put one of the three special mods in slot 2. That is why WG made the Unique Upgrades, to offer alternatives for people to fit the ship closer to the play style they want.

I already have it and the extended visibility is not going to matter in random if you're hiding behind an island. The issue is whether having 9.5 km visibility and 9.9 km radar is worth giving up in ranked. Considering the first 20 seconds of radar is the most important. I say no.

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3 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

I already have it and the extended visibility is not going to matter in random if you're hiding behind an island. The issue is whether having 9.5 km visibility and 9.9 km radar is worth giving up in ranked. Considering the first 20 seconds of radar is the most important. I say no.

Well, you could always demount for ranked and put back for random once ranked is over.

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On 7/7/2018 at 8:53 AM, yashma said:

Given how many Tier 10s I have....I do think the grind is a little excessive for something that's supposed to be a "side grade" and which in many cases arguably doesn't even live up to that.  But it is what it is....

 

 

Who doesn't love a good necro. The grind is more than a little excessive for a side grade, it is obnoxious. If it was an upgrade it would be understandable but they are side grades at best. All phases of the campaign should be decreased by at least 50%.

 

 

 

 

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Got 20 Tier X ships,so really lot of grinding for legendary upgrades.

Already did 10 ,and only one I using really is one for Yamato, I think is almost OP :)

 

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The UU on Yamato "costs" reload 26.4 vs 28.2. So if sniping with Yamato is the goal the UU helps, but it does cost reload.

The Republique loses range for faster reload. 

As I push with both ships, I don't use it on Yamato and I do use it on Republique.

They all cost something, And how and when they have value depends on the play style. I would suppose that is exactly what WOWs had in mind. As for the Grind, I do them for the rewards you get during, not the final UU. 

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1 hour ago, BearlyHereBear said:

Republique loses 6km for about a 1 sec reload...nah, it don't fly.

It certainly does if you aren't out sniping but well inside the range with the UU. And as I push with Republique w/ secondary build it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't use range and snipe with that ship. So reload is far more important (to me) than range.

YMMV

 

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14 minutes ago, fbrrhd said:

It certainly does if you aren't out sniping but well inside the range with the UU. And as I push with Republique w/ secondary build it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't use range and snipe with that ship. So reload is far more important (to me) than range.

YMMV

 

Same with me. Combined with the special French captian, with improved adrenaline rush, you can really reduce the reload when your health is low. 

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3 hours ago, fbrrhd said:

It certainly does if you aren't out sniping but well inside the range with the UU. And as I push with Republique w/ secondary build it makes a lot of sense to me. I don't use range and snipe with that ship. So reload is far more important (to me) than range.

YMMV

 

Not talking about sniping at range.  I'm talking about finishing one target and getting to engage targets far away faster.  I am the first to be over aggressive and close on a lone BB for a knife fight.  But to lose 6km for a one second difference from my standard build, nope, not worth it ( and yes I got the 19 pt  special French capt. in her).

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imo the Gearing's module was WORTH the grind. The only downside was a penalty to your guns, which I was willing to take to increase my concealment.

However, With the introduction of FRIKKIN OP Harugumo, Kitakaze, Daring and Jutland with reloads of 2 seconds and 10 massive guns just not make it worth anymore to be honest. even gunboat DDs have a detection of 6.3km... even 1 small mistake, and youre dead. not worth it now tbh, but I have it so I just stick with it. Too lazy to buy the normal module again and change my play style

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23 minutes ago, lungiwear said:

imo the Gearing's module was WORTH the grind. The only downside was a penalty to your guns, which I was willing to take to increase my concealment.

However, With the introduction of FRIKKIN OP Harugumo, Kitakaze, Daring and Jutland with reloads of 2 seconds and 10 massive guns just not make it worth anymore to be honest. even gunboat DDs have a detection of 6.3km... even 1 small mistake, and youre dead. not worth it now tbh, but I have it so I just stick with it. Too lazy to buy the normal module again and change my play style

For random, configuring the Gearing as a torpboat against the gunsboats is interesting. Use Fletcher torps along with RPF. gunboast smoke up, throw torps into the smoke cloud.

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34 minutes ago, Bill_Halsey said:

For random, configuring the Gearing as a torpboat against the gunsboats is interesting. Use Fletcher torps along with RPF. gunboast smoke up, throw torps into the smoke cloud.

Gunboat builds for USN DD pretty much died with 6.3. Torp builds have been the standard since then with everyone I know. 

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On 7/7/2018 at 4:37 AM, AlcatrazNC said:

In theory the Gearing mod is pretty strong IMO. You trade a little DPM for Shima concealment (which is the best among all T10).  But so far I never met a single Gearing running this module.

Some modules are really good, like Yamato or Zao module.

Some modules are really meh. The benefit they offer isn't enough to makes you change your current module like Henri module.

And some modules are straight up garbage like Shimakaze module

 

 

Gearing legendary is AWESOME, man! Got me to rank 1 in no time, loved catching Shimas with their pants down:)

In my opinion grinding the Republique was the most unrewarding. Sacrifying turret traverse and range  for mere 2 seconds reload advantage?NOT worth it.

Yama and Zao, Hindi?O yes!

 

 

Edited by Black_Rain0

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On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 8:36 AM, FlakKnight said:

It seems like those which further the primary play style of the ship are at least getting people interested while those that actually meet the stated goal of these modules (alternative play style) are seen as worthless.

The weird thing is the way in which some are balanced.  Some are just opportunity cost, others are opportunity cost plus a pile of negative penalties.  I personally think they should have all been a new slot and all just had pros and cons, e.g. equip to get -50% torpedo stuff and +20% gun stuff or whatever.

Agree.  Outside of those that, as you said, just buff the way the ship already plays, it seems that what the dev community didn't really factor in was the impact of losing whatever else went in that slot.  That is what makes most of these upgrades Meh to wth.

Which is too bad.  I Like the goal...anything that breaks the current meta is a good thing, IMO.  But if done in a way that makes people not use them...then it isn't accomplishing the goal.  These mods don't need to make ships better (like the Yammy and Hindy upgrades)...what they needed to do and intended to do was just make them different.  Different but equal.  But too many of them are different, and worse.  Which is unfortunate, because actually getting any of these upgrades is, while achievable just through playing, not a simple task.  Seems like around 200 games?... which you might need to do for 10 or more ships? That's a big time commitment:  the reward at the end needs to be worth it.

Edited by DrunkenSailor63

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