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MrDeaf

So after much self deliberation, I am of the opinion that there's zero point to Saint Louis and Henry IV

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Because the Alsace does everything better, except for torping

Quick comparison (IMO)

Survivability
Winner: Alsace. I mean, it's a battleship for crying out loud. What's really nice about the Alsace, is that it's also difficult to get citadelled, be it from AP shells or GZAP bombs. In comparison, Saint Louis and Henry IV have really awful protection throughout and basically require DFAA to not get deleted by AP bombs. Oh, and Alsace boasts up to 45% TDS, which is exceptionally good.

Artillery
Winner: Alsace. With Saint Louis you get 9x 203mm guns with decent range and atrocious fire starting chances. The DPM is pretty average for its tier too. Henry IV, on the other hand, is dead last for DPM in tier with decent fire starting chances. You have to keep in mind that fire starting chance per shell isn't everything, as it is also tied to how many shells can be lobbed. The AP on both of them are rather average too, with the Henry IV being able to overmatch all RNCL hull plating.
Then we get Alsace with 12x 380mm guns. These guns, although they have derp dispersion, will still absolutely wreck ships it hits. While the HE isn't anything special, and neither is the fire chance, it can still fling many shells at once to cause pain and suffering to those that get hit.

Torpedoes
Winner: Henry IV and Saint Louis. Really, there is no contest here, since Alsace lacks torpedoes. However, Henry IV dissappoints with a total lack of an upgrade over Emile Bertin. Yes, Henry IV has the same torps as a T5 and they don't even increase in number available. All French Cruisers from T5 through T10 have the same torpedoes and same number of torpedoes.

AA Defense
Winner: Henry IV*. Oh look, a T10 cruiser that has better AA than the ships below its tier. How nouveau!
* But after you factor in deck armor, TDS and maneuverability, then the True Winner is Alsace.

Maneuverability
Winner: Henry IV. Henry has 2 knots more speed compared to the T9s and ever so slightly better turning circle radius over Alsace.
It may only be a marginal 2 knots, but it's 2 knots nonetheless.
Poor Saint Louis, she is matched in speed by the Alsace and only has turning circle radius going for her, and it's still relatively poor for a cruiser.

Concealment
Winner: Saint Louis*. But only barely. While Saint Louis boasts 11.48km concealment, compared to the 12.72km on Henry and 12.58km on Alsace, it pales in comparison to the 10.65km on Charles Martel. This puts Saint Louis and Henry IV in a weird position. They have only slightly better concealment than Alsace, yet they do not necessarily get to dictate the terms of engagement.
*True Winner: Alsace

Other
Winner: Alsace. This is a bit tricky to explain, but the reason Alsace wins this, is because she gets access to a seaplane fighter, where as the Henry IV doesn't get one at all, and the Saint Louis must trade out one of its consumables to access it. What makes things worse with Saint Louis and Henry IV, is that they must share their DFAA and Hydro in the same slot. If you haven't heard already, those two get absolutely shat on by AP bombs that may or may not randomly appear out of the wild, which mostly precludes the use of hydro.

TLDR
So there you have it. Alsace is only beaten in the torpedo department by the French T9/10 cruisers, and the torps that put them in the lead here are a 1 for 1 copy from T5. Everything else, the Saint Louis and Henry can do, Alsace can do even better.

Edited by MrDeaf
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8 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

All French Cruisers from T5 through T10 have the same torpedoes and same number of torpedoes.

La Galissoniere (or however you spell it) only has 2X2 which is the main reason I sold it since its a decent ship but it has ZERO alpha strike potential even with its torps.  Also no plane sucks but I think its one of those turret launchers so it may eventually get one.

Edited by mrh308

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6 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Because the Alsace does everything better, except for torping

Quick comparison (IMO)

Survivability
Winner: Alsace. I mean, it's a battleship for crying out loud. What's really nice about the Alsace, is that it's also difficult to get citadelled, be it from AP shells or GZAP bombs. In comparison, Saint Louis and Henry IV have really awful protection throughout and basically require DFAA to not get deleted by AP bombs. Oh, and Alsace boasts up to 45% TDS, which is exceptionally good.

Artillery
Winner: Alsace. With Saint Louis you get 9x 203mm guns with decent range and atrocious fire starting chances. The DPM is pretty average for its tier too. Henry IV, on the other hand, is dead last for DPM in tier with decent fire starting chances. You have to keep in mind that fire starting chance per shell isn't everything, as it is also tied to how many shells can be lobbed. The AP on both of them are rather average too, with the Henry IV being able to overmatch all RNCL hull plating.
Then we get Alsace with 12x 380mm guns. These guns, although they have derp dispersion, will still absolutely wreck ships it hits. While the HE isn't anything special, and neither is the fire chance, it can still fling many shells at once to cause pain and suffering to those that get hit.

Torpedoes
Winner: Henry IV and Saint Louis. Really, there is no contest here, since Alsace lacks torpedoes. However, Henry IV dissappoints with a total lack of an upgrade over Emile Bertin. Yes, Henry IV has the same torps as a T5 and they don't even increase in number available. All French Cruisers from T5 through T10 have the same torpedoes and same number of torpedoes.

AA Defense
Winner: Henry IV*. Oh look, a T10 cruiser that has better AA than the ships below its tier. How nouveau!
* But after you factor in deck armor, TDS and maneuverability, then the True Winner is Alsace.

Maneuverability
Winner: Henry IV. Henry has 2 knots more speed compared to the T9s and ever so slightly better turning circle radius over Alsace.
It may only be a marginal 2 knots, but it's 2 knots nonetheless.
Poor Saint Louis, she is matched in speed by the Alsace and only has turning circle radius going for her, and it's still relatively poor for a cruiser.

Concealment
Winner: Saint Louis*. But only barely. While Saint Louis boasts 11.48km concealment, compared to the 12.72km on Henry and 12.58km on Alsace, it pales in comparison to the 10.65km on Charles Martel. This puts Saint Louis and Henry IV in a weird position. They have only slightly better concealment than Alsace, yet they do not necessarily get to dictate the terms of engagement.
*True Winner: Alsace

Other
Winner: Alsace. This is a bit tricky to explain, but the reason Alsace wins this, is because she gets access to a seaplane fighter, where as the Henry IV doesn't get one at all, and the Saint Louis must trade out one of its consumables to access it. What makes things worse with Saint Louis and Henry IV, is that they must share their DFAA and Hydro in the same slot. If you haven't heard already, those two get absolutely shat on by AP bombs that may or may not randomly appear out of the wild, which mostly precludes the use of hydro.

TLDR
So there you have it. Alsace is only beaten in the torpedo department by the French T9/10 cruisers, and the torps that put them in the lead here are a 1 for 1 copy from T5. Everything else, the Saint Louis and Henry can do, Alsace can do even better.

This sounds just like a North Korean election.

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4 minutes ago, mrh308 said:

La Galissoniere (or however you spell it) only has 2X2 which is the main reason I sold it since its a decent ship but it has ZERO alpha strike potential even with its torps.  Also no plane sucks but I think its one of those turret launchers so it may eventually get one.

It's not known as the "La Garbage" or "La Gasoline" or anything like that...

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@MrDeaf, excellent post. I am of the same mind. At T10, I can get in Henri and maybe lay down 100K if I have a good game, but in reality probably do less damage, and I certainly won't carry. Or I could get in Alsace/Republique and average 100/K120K and carry if I have a 150-200K game. For most players it probably doesn't make any sense to play those two ships. So I stopped playing Henri in Randoms...

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I don't like Alsace, but I don't like that a battleship that fast and stealthy obviates many traditional cruiser advantages either.

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And while your post is actually quite funny (and made me realize how truly sad French torps are not that anyone should be close enough to use them), the real issue is that when you queue in Alsace you are giving the enemy team a tier 9 BB while queueing in the other two they get another t9 or 10 fire spammer.  So unless that BB happens to be a Lion or a potato you are basically cheating your team of a BB for an extra cruiser.

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Not to encourage what seems like an apples-orange contest, but Alsace is one of the only BBs that I fear in a DD. How do you dodge twelve shells with that dispersion? One of them’s going to chunk you for sure. 

But I sure love to watch her burn. Big target, easy fires, as long as she’s aiming somewhere else. 

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Well....where to start? I'm not trying to be a smart @$$, but are you saying that the St Louis and HIV need a buff? Because of French BBs? Now, I'm more comfortable in the Alsance or the Republic for that matter, but that is true of all CAs vs BBs IMO. The only reason I got the HIV was for Clan wars, but now would ask to run the Republic in that mode... But I'm not sure there is anything really wrong with either CA...

Should we compare the Des Mosies to the Montana? 

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1 minute ago, mrh308 said:

And while your post is actually quite funny (and made me realize how truly sad French torps are not that anyone should be close enough to use them), the real issue is that when you queue in Alsace you are giving the enemy team a tier 9 BB while queueing in the other two they get another t9 or 10 fire spammer.  So unless that BB happens to be a Lion or a potato you are basically cheating your team of a BB for an extra cruiser.

Did you not read the part where I said Saint Louis and HIV aren't particularly good at starting fires?

I mean, if I absolutely had to have a T9 cruiser that started fires, I would rather have a Donskoi, Seattle, Roon or Ibuki...

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3 minutes ago, Eugenie_101 said:

Not to encourage what seems like an apples-orange contest, but Alsace is one of the only BBs that I fear in a DD. How do you dodge twelve shells with that dispersion? One of them’s going to chunk you for sure. 

But I sure love to watch her burn. Big target, easy fires, as long as she’s aiming somewhere else. 

I like chasing down DDs with that 39 knots it can hit.

1 minute ago, Sir_Davos_Seaworth said:

Well....where to start? I'm not trying to be a smart @$$, but are you saying that the St Louis and HIV need a buff? Because of French BBs? Now, I'm more comfortable in the Alsance or the Republic for that matter, but that is true of all CAs vs BBs IMO. The only reason I got the HIV was for Clan wars, but now would ask to run the Republic in that mode... But I'm not sure there is anything really wrong with either CA...

Should we compare the Des Mosies to the Montana? 

It's probably a medium buff to Henry, small nerf to Alsace and small buff to Saint Louis, all things considered.

DM and Monty have enough of a differentiation.
DM has insane DPM and radar, while Montana is not immune to GZAP either.

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13 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

I mean, if I absolutely had to have a T9 cruiser that started fires, I would rather have a Donskoi, Seattle, Roon or Ibuki...

The Saint Louis has the 2nd best fire starting rate of any Tier 9 cruiser....2nd only to the Seattle, and considerably better than the Roon, Donskoi and Ibuki. But even compared to the Seattle you can argue it still has a higher effective fire starting rate.  With speed boost the Saint Louis can be quite effective at dodging shells, and thanks to its superior shell arcs/none reliance on island humping, it's much more consistent.  

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3 minutes ago, yashma said:

The Saint Louis has the 2nd best fire starting rate of any Tier 9 cruiser....2nd only to the Seattle, and considerably better than the Roon, Donskoi and Ibuki. But even compared to the Seattle you can argue it still has a higher effective fire starting rate.  With speed boost the Saint Louis can be quite effective at dodging shells, and thanks to its superior shell arcs/none reliance on island humping, it's much more consistent.  

really?

It feels like crapcompared to Chappayev and Kutuzov

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32 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

 I am of the same mind. At T10, I can get in Henri and maybe lay down 100K if I have a good game, but in reality probably do less damage, and I certainly won't carry. Or I could get in Alsace/Republique and average 100/K120K and carry if I have a 150-200K game. For most players it probably doesn't make any sense to play those two ships. So I stopped playing Henri in Randoms...

Henri is almost the best damage farming cruiser at tier 10. I avg 108k damage in mine however she is hard to carry with, big, cumbersome cruiser that's very poor at contesting caps, especially early game.

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48 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Because the Alsace does everything better, except for torping

Quick comparison (IMO)

Survivability
Winner: Alsace. I mean, it's a battleship for crying out loud. What's really nice about the Alsace, is that it's also difficult to get citadelled, be it from AP shells or GZAP bombs. In comparison, Saint Louis and Henry IV have really awful protection throughout and basically require DFAA to not get deleted by AP bombs. Oh, and Alsace boasts up to 45% TDS, which is exceptionally good.

Artillery
Winner: Alsace. With Saint Louis you get 9x 203mm guns with decent range and atrocious fire starting chances. The DPM is pretty average for its tier too. Henry IV, on the other hand, is dead last for DPM in tier with decent fire starting chances. You have to keep in mind that fire starting chance per shell isn't everything, as it is also tied to how many shells can be lobbed. The AP on both of them are rather average too, with the Henry IV being able to overmatch all RNCL hull plating.
Then we get Alsace with 12x 380mm guns. These guns, although they have derp dispersion, will still absolutely wreck ships it hits. While the HE isn't anything special, and neither is the fire chance, it can still fling many shells at once to cause pain and suffering to those that get hit.

Torpedoes
Winner: Henry IV and Saint Louis. Really, there is no contest here, since Alsace lacks torpedoes. However, Henry IV dissappoints with a total lack of an upgrade over Emile Bertin. Yes, Henry IV has the same torps as a T5 and they don't even increase in number available. All French Cruisers from T5 through T10 have the same torpedoes and same number of torpedoes.

AA Defense
Winner: Henry IV*. Oh look, a T10 cruiser that has better AA than the ships below its tier. How nouveau!
* But after you factor in deck armor, TDS and maneuverability, then the True Winner is Alsace.

Maneuverability
Winner: Henry IV. Henry has 2 knots more speed compared to the T9s and ever so slightly better turning circle radius over Alsace.
It may only be a marginal 2 knots, but it's 2 knots nonetheless.
Poor Saint Louis, she is matched in speed by the Alsace and only has turning circle radius going for her, and it's still relatively poor for a cruiser.

Concealment
Winner: Saint Louis*. But only barely. While Saint Louis boasts 11.48km concealment, compared to the 12.72km on Henry and 12.58km on Alsace, it pales in comparison to the 10.65km on Charles Martel. This puts Saint Louis and Henry IV in a weird position. They have only slightly better concealment than Alsace, yet they do not necessarily get to dictate the terms of engagement.
*True Winner: Alsace

Other
Winner: Alsace. This is a bit tricky to explain, but the reason Alsace wins this, is because she gets access to a seaplane fighter, where as the Henry IV doesn't get one at all, and the Saint Louis must trade out one of its consumables to access it. What makes things worse with Saint Louis and Henry IV, is that they must share their DFAA and Hydro in the same slot. If you haven't heard already, those two get absolutely shat on by AP bombs that may or may not randomly appear out of the wild, which mostly precludes the use of hydro.

TLDR
So there you have it. Alsace is only beaten in the torpedo department by the French T9/10 cruisers, and the torps that put them in the lead here are a 1 for 1 copy from T5. Everything else, the Saint Louis and Henry can do, Alsace can do even better.

Your comparing apples to oranges. The Henri 4 is getting changed per sub Octavian on his past q n a about two weeks ago. No point to this thread since your not comparing Henri 4 to any other cruiser as Henri 4 is not a Battleship. 

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Running a 26% firechance on HIV I don't find it too difficult to light up a fire -- But in comparison to other ships you do only get 9 shells vs the typical 12 at TX.

The one tiny adjustment I would give to HIV is giver her a second triple mount torps where the boat launder is near the smoke stack. (Cuz whynot? It's nearly the same size) It would give her just a tiny buff that her torps could pose some threat?

In general though I do enjoy the 240s and think HIV is pretty decent where she stands

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6 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

really?

It feels like crapcompared to Chappayev and Kutuzov

Well....I don't think it's as good as those two....but it's still considerably better than most of the other Tier 9 cruisers....especially if you sit down and actually do the math.  It has a respectable 19% fire chance and can spit out rounds with a decent 8.8 second reload. 

The thing people often forget is that in terms of HE spamming, the Soviet 180mm guns are considerably worse than the 152mm guns, and despite the high alpha and fire chance, most 203mm IJN armed cruisers don't actually have all that impressive DPM or fire starting rates.  The Saint Louis is superior in every way to the Roon in terms of HE spam....(better RoF with higher alpha and fire chance) and the Saint Louis actually shoots about the same amount of RPM as the Buffalo, but has a higher fire chance.  *This is assuming both ships are running the MBM3, which isn't always the case as the many Buffalo players go for extra range, while the Saint Louis can get away with reload.  

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5 minutes ago, SilhoutteFG said:

Henri is almost the best damage farming cruiser at tier 10. I avg 108k damage in mine however she is hard to carry with, big, cumbersome cruiser that's very poor at contesting caps, especially early game.

My stats in Alsace says 123k avg dmg and 71% WR...

What's the point of higher DPM if you cannot apply it effectively?

4 minutes ago, landedkiller said:

Your comparing apples to oranges. The Henri 4 is getting changed per sub Octavian on his past q n a about two weeks ago. No point to this thread since your not comparing Henri 4 to any other cruiser as Henri 4 is not a Battleship. 

I think your argument is flawed.

If the ship does the same job, then clearly it's a fair comparison.

Such is the case of Alsace, a Battleship pretending to be a Cruiser, and Henry IV, a cruiser pretending to be a Battleship.

 

Like what do Saint Louis and Henry IV do? Evade tank and apply DPM and DoT by getting into good positions with their speed?

Well Alsace can do the exact same thing, and it can also armor tank and alpha strike better.

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17 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Like what do Saint Louis and Henry IV do? Evade tank and apply DPM and DoT by getting into good positions with their speed?

Well Alsace can do the exact same thing, and it can also armor tank and alpha strike better.

Have cruiser dispersion.

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10 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

Like what do Saint Louis and Henry IV do? Evade tank and apply DPM and DoT by getting into good positions with their speed?

Well Alsace can do the exact same thing, and it can also armor tank and alpha strike better.

Alsace cant apply hydro, or defensive fire or evade that well, Alsace tanks actual damage, Henri and St Louis rack up potential damage. That's the difference.

Having 1 000 000 plus potential damage and no actual damage received (in the HIV for example) is far better than losing half your HP and 2 repairs (Alsace).

Alsace cant do 45 knots either like the Henri. And certainly doesn't have her accuracy.

All of this is assuming the ships are played correctly and according to their roles. both are vastly different ships with different play styles. Apples and oranges.

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I'm playing through Ibuki and Saint-Louis now - both kiting cruisers - and for my money S-L is the superior practical fire starter over time and is much more survivable to boot.  And when you can or need to go bow in and AP something, S-L is better at that, too.  Basically what Ibuki has going for it are some devastating but hard to use torpedoes and concealment (which is vastly better, especially if the Frenchie is set up with double rudder), which one trades for a tendency to explode when looked at funny.  If there is "no point" to S-L, basically someone from WG should be required to come to my house and give me a backrub for playing Ibuki

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One reason for playing Henri IV is that a person might not like playing BBs and, they might like a fast cruiser.  They might also like the playstyle.  That would apply to PvP/PvE.  Of course in competitive, you would bring what your team needs...

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The thing that French cruisers were designed to do (in a game dev sense) is to sit back at long range and spam HE at cruisers and battleships. The problem is that French battleships do this as well. And British battleships. And Russian cruisers. And German cruisers (not really their role but they can do it).

It's a "niche" that many of the line's competitors can fill while also bringing more to the table.

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1 hour ago, Taichunger said:

@MrDeaf, excellent post. I am of the same mind. At T10, I can get in Henri and maybe lay down 100K if I have a good game, but in reality probably do less damage, and I certainly won't carry. Or I could get in Alsace/Republique and average 100/K120K and carry if I have a 150-200K game. For most players it probably doesn't make any sense to play those two ships. So I stopped playing Henri in Randoms...

Shame, I was thinking of maybe trying to make the Henri work.

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2 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

Survivability
Winner: Alsace. I mean, it's a battleship

ASASHIO and GZ is looking for you.....:cap_look:

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