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Lert

A (serious) case for HNLMS Witte de With as T6 Duch premium

HNLMS Witte de With as T6 Dutch premium DD?  

110 members have voted

  1. 1. HNLMS Witte de With as T6 Dutch premium DD?

    • Yes, I support this idea and would actually seriously buy her, for sure
    • Yes, I support this idea but would not spend my money on her
    • No, we don't need a Dutch ship in this game, period
    • Meh, I don't really care either way

46 comments in this topic

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While I've talked about the Admiralen class before, that was always in general terms. I believe that to enhance the chance of someone at WG taking notice of a premium ship request, I should make it as specific as possible and narrow it down to a specific ship, give a synopsis about its service history, include as much information as possible and even give my view on how to implement her, with what features, at what tier and describe what play style she would offer.

No small task.

So without further ado, let's get down to the nitty gritty of it, and present HNLMS Witte de With:

5eU2iZL.png

HNLMS Witte de With as commissioned.

Witte de With was an Admiralen class destroyer which was laid down on 28 May 1927 at the shipyard of Fijenoord in Rotterdam and launched on 11 September 1928. The ship was commissioned on 20 February 1930. She is named after Witte Corneliszoon de With, a famous Dutch naval officer of the 17th century.

GtODXsx.jpg

Witte Corneliszoon de With, by Abraham van Westerveld

She was typical Admiralen class of the second group, measuring just under 100m long and displacing 1666 metric tons at full load. She had three Yarrow type boilers and two Parson geared turbines driving two shafts. Her drive train produced 31000 HP which pushed her along at a modest 36 knots. There is little written down about Witte de With's service career, but what's there paints a picture as tragic as that of her seven sister ships of the Admiralen class.

There is especially little written down in public, easy-to-find internet archives about her first ten years of service, before WWII broke out. It's written that she visited Saigon along with her sistership van Galen and the Java class cruiser Sumatra, in 1935. It's said that Witte de With was present at the fleet days in Sumatra in 1936, along with sisterships van Galen and Piet Hein, and the Java class cruisers Java and Sumatra. Later that year both Java class cruisers and the Admiralen class destoyers Witte de With, Evertsen and Piet Hein made a fleet visit to Singapore, stopping along the way in the South China Sea for an exercise.

So for the first ten years of her service Witte de With performed PR duties and exercises, projecting force and showing the Dutch navy's investment in various Pacific sea locations. But then war broke out.

Some time during 1940 or 1941, Witte de With along with her sister van Ghent were equipped with ASDIC systems. But it was during the ill-fated battle of Java Sea that Witte de With took her modest place in history. It was during this engagement that HMS Exeter was crippled by Japanese fire, when a shell from Haguro exploded in her boiler room, knocking six of her boilers off-line. Witte de With was ordered to escort the stricken Exeter back to safety in Surabaya port.  Several days later, while at sea, Witte de With's aging and outdated AA suite became her doom when she was attacked and bombed by Japanese aircraft, on may 1st, 1942. The most significant hit was a bomb to the forecastle, which crippled the ship. Afloat but crippled, and unable to affect open water repairs, the captain ordered her scuttled the next day.

TCFyOKr.jpg

Close-up of the bridge and mid-section, drawing quite a crowd.

So what would she look like in game?

For the purposes of this thread, I'm going hog-wild with stats and consumables, though all within historical reason and precedence. I will explain why further down in this post.

Tonnage:

At 1666 metric tons full load, we get 10900 hitpoints.

This puts her at around tier 4 or 5. However, I want to place her at tier 6, which means she'll have the lowest hitpoints in tier, even behind lightweights like Hatsuharu which boasts 11700 hitpoints fully upgraded.

Armor:

The 'armor' on this destroyer served purely to keep the crew inside while under maneuvers. Moving on ...

Main armament:

4x single Siderius No. 4 120mm guns.

These were license built copies of a Bofors design and fired a 24 kg HE shell at 900 mps. This is an excellent muzzle velocity and would give it very good ballistics over range and short time-to-target, for a 120mm gun. I believe these guns to be near as indistinguishable from the guns on the in-game Błyskawica, as they are both similar vintage Bofors designed 120mm guns with a 50 caliber barrel length, 900 mps muzzle velocity and a ~10 RPM ROF. Taking Błyskawica's numbers, we get to a HE shell with 1700 dmg and an 8.5% fire chance, and an AP shell with 2200 damage. If they really are as similar to Błyskawica's guns as I imagine them to be, they would likely inherit the Polish ship's sluggish 18s turn rate.

Although she would outgun Japanese destroyers at tier, do not mistake Witte de With for a gunboat destroyer. With only four barrels and a 6 second reload, her gun battery is a back-up weapon system at best, suitable for harassing battleships at long range or finishing off wounded destroyers, at most. Their muzzle velocity would give them the ballistics to accurately place warheads on foreheads at range, but she'll never have sufficient shells in the air to seriously worry anyone who isn't a Japanese destroyer of equal tier or lower.

Secondary / Auxilliary armament:

1x Siderius No. 7 75mm
4x 40mm Pom Pom
4x .50 Browning M2

When commissioned this was sufficient. However, at the mid stages of WWII, it no longer was. It's even questionable whether WG would make the 75mm a secondary or not, but even if they did, it wouldn't really be any DPS worth mentioning from a single gun with 8 RPM and a 6.5kg shell.

The pom-poms would give about 22 dps at 2 km and the .50s about 15 dps at 1.2km. Celebratory fireworks to hail the arrival of angry airplanes.

Torpedo armament:

2x triple 533mm tube setup.

With six centerline tubes divided in two launchers of three barrels apiece, Witte de With is not a very powerful torpedo boat. To give her some teeth I say she would carry Błyskawica's British Mk 10*, which gives us a torpedo with 8km range, 57 knots speed and 14400 damage. This is a very modest torpedo for a very modest broadside alpha strike. Having the same number of tubes it's very likely these will reload in about the same 70s as on Błyskawica's torpedo setup. Although her torpedo battery is relatively more potent than her gun battery suite, I'd hesitate to call Witte de With a torpedo boat.

Speed:

As mentioned, 36 knots. This is on the low end for tier 6, beating only some of the Japanese destroyers like Fubuki and Shinonome.

Concealment:

This is, for tier 6, a tiny ship. She is roughly the same dimensions and displacement as a Minekaze class destroyer, and would likely carry very similar dispersion. Minekaze boasts a 6.2km surface detection range and 3.1km by-air detection range. With Witte de With being suggested a premium and thus coming with a premium camouflage standard, her concealment would likely be in the 6.0km range by surface, before captain skills are applied.

"So, wait, no hitpoints, weak gun battery, very mediocre torpedo battery, why is this thing tier 6? Sounds like the perfect tier 5, to me!"

Patience, patience. Yes, the ship based purely on its own merits is a shoe-in for tier 5. That's why in my tech tree proposal, that's where I would put her. However, remember where I mentioned that Witte de With and van Ghent received ASDIC some time during the early years of the war? This gives us historical precedence for a Hydroacoustic Search consumable. Plus, there's another neat trick the Admiralen could do ....

hOp7sk5.jpg

That's right. A destroyer with a spotter plane, carried aft on a structure above the rearward torpedo mount.

Consumables:

We'll start by giving her the standard destroyer suite of consumables, being DCP, Smoke and Speed Boost, all standard versions. Since we're talking about Witte de With, we'll also give her a Spotter Plane with a single charge base, and Hydroacoustic Search with one or two charges base. This would give Witte de With the flexibility and vision control to challenge cap circles and provide forward scouting in a way no other destroyer in this game can.

yB20csF.jpg

"Wait, back up a bit. Admiralen had a catapult?"

Well, no. No catapult. The sea plane was carried on a structure above the rearward torpedo mount, and lowered in the water by a crane so it could take off. However, WG already has planes that historically landed in the water and were recovered by crane just flying into the ship and appearing back on the catapult, so it'd be a very small step in terms of mechanics and programming to have the plane take off from the mount as well.

"So, why Witte de With in particular? There are other Admiralen that have as historical and tragic a story."

Yes, there are. However, those are better suited for the tech tree. Since consumables like a spotter plane and hydro change the play style, I wanted to take her out of the tech tree and make her a premium. Witte de With and van Ghent were the only ones who received ASDIC, so they're the only two candidates for this up-tiered Admiralen premium, and I like the story of Witte de With more than that of van Ghent. Plus, she has ties with HMS Exeter, and I think it very likely that we'll see the latter in game at some point as well.

"Alright. So what play style would Witte de With offer?"

She'd be very stealthy with ok-ish mobility, so she'd be a decent cap contester. This is only strengthened by the presence of a spotter plane and hydro, allowing her to see for her team and light up targets from smoke, as well as dodge torpedoes heading towards her smoke screen. She'd be a high skill floor and high skill ceiling ship with decent torpedoes and usable gun battery backup to help fight her out of tight spots, but her primary role would be scouting and cap contesting. Her small size likely makes her very agile, too.

She'd require a decent captain skill point investment to get the most out of her, with Super Intendent a must, as well as Expert Marksman, Concealment Expert and Advanced and Basic Firing Training to taste. She'd also benefit from Torpedo Armament Expertise to drop her already swift torpedo reload even further. Finally, Vigilance might be a worthwhile investment as with her concealment, Witte de With should always be up front.

So, in short:

Pros:

- Historical ship, fought in in WWII
- Ties with the RN, escorted HMS Exeter
- Unique playstyle with spotter plane and / or hydro

Cons:

- Limited appeal (NL nation not in game)
- Mid tier
- Requires entirely new model researched and build

"Hmmm. Limited appeal, NL nation not in game. That sounds like a problem."

Although she has limited appeal on the NA server as a Dutch ship, a first Dutch premium would herald and generate interest for a full tech tree. There aren't many nations left not yet in the game that WG would implement as full nations with their own tree, and the Dutch have the potential for the potential for a DD tree line supplemented with only a few design proposals and a cruiser tech tree with a reasonable mix of historical vessels and design proposals. Having that first premium offer some new and unique gameplay will further help sell the ship and generate interest.

"Wait, potential for a full Dutch DD and cruiser tech tree? What?"

Yes.

Spoiler

DD tree:

T1: van Kinsbergen or K-class (Built in steel)
T2: Wolf (Built in steel)
T3: Jakhals (Wolf with slight theoretical upgrade)
T4: First group Admiralen (Built in steel, give Whitehead torpedoes)
T5: Second group Admiralen (Built in steel, give Mk 10* torpedoes)
T6: Gerard Callenburgh as designed (Built in steel) (Witte de With as premium with full consumable suite)
T7: Isaac Sweers (Built in steel)
T8: Holland (Built in steel, did not have torpedoes historically, might need theoretical torpedo inclusion)
T9: Friesland (Built in steel, did not have torpedoes historically, though two Friesland class were temporarily given 8x tubes in the early 1960s)
T10: Amsterdam (Built in steel, friesland class, give it the in-trials speed of 43 knots and the 1960s torpedo loadout)

CL tree:

T1: van Kinsbergen or K-class (Built in steel)
T2: Gelderland protected cruiser (Built in steel)
T3: Java (Built in steel)
T4: Tromp (Built in steel)
T5: de Ruyter (Built in steel)
T6: Eendracht as designed (Laid down, not finished)
T7: de Zeven Provincien (1953) (Built in steel)
T8: 16.000 ton armored cruiser (Theoretical design. Unfortunately there's not much information on this design)
T9: 1047 (Theoretical design, based on existing drawings)
T10: Project 323 (Theoretical design, based on existing drawings)

Even if WG would not consider adding a full Dutch tree (though I don't see why not, they're running out of other nations not-yet-in-the-game that could conceivably offer a full tree) there is still space for Witte de With in this game as precursor to a pan-european tree, which I hope would have a significant Dutch presence. She could occupy the Tier 6 destroyer premium spot, while Błyskawica sits at tier 7.

"Wait, I thought you didn't like balancing ships by gimmick?"

You're right, I don't. Normally. However, if a Dutch DD tree is going to be implemented, Admiralen is a shoe-in for tier 4 / 5 already and likely not get the spotter plane. I think it would be a complete waste of potential if no version of her was implemented with spotter plane, and the only way to realistically solve that is to implement a variant with. However, since this puts her above T5 category in terms of potential / performance, T6 premium is the only realistic place she could go.

"Ok, but what would she cost, if implemented at T6?"

Likely a very similar price to any of the existing premium T6 destroyers. Right now Monaghan is in the store for $25-ish. I'd wager Witte de With would cost somewhere around that too. Maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more, but no more than $30 for the base ship and a slot, without bundle.

"What style of camouflage might she wear?"

There are two options, really.

First is flat gray with large, white 'WW' on the sides:

URxlWGQ.jpg

Second is a blocky, light-and-dark-gray pattern:

2kzOxWw.jpg

This picture though is likely not Witte de With. It's probably Evertsen, a sistership. however, it shows precedence for an Admiralen in camouflage, and thus I would consider it an option for Witte de With in this game.

Personally I'm partial to the clean, light gray scheme with the large 'WW' on the sides, but that's just me.

"How do you pronounce the name, Witte de With?"

'Wittuh duh Wit'. The 'h' is not considered, so the 'With' part is pronounced like 'wit' with a hard T. There is a slight emphasis on the first syllable of the name, and all syllables are spoken at reasonably quick pace, none linger.

Thank you for taking the time to read this proposal, and please support a dutch inclusion into WoWS. We have Haida, there is a pan-American nation upcoming with Nueve de Julio, so it's about time the Dutch were considered as well.

Thanks to @LittleWhiteMouse for helping me put this proposal together, and for coming up with a possible national flavor for Dutch destroyers:

Quote

Have them lose less speed in a turn. This makes them more agile, without giving them stupidly fast or giving them unrealistic turning circles. Think of a whole line of destroyers with Sims maneuverability.

Personally, I really like this idea. It's new, it's fun to play, it's a national flavor and it actually has a small basis in history. Admiral Michiel de Ruyter had a whole fleet of shallow-draft ships built which gave them exceptional maneuverability and the ability to go where his adversaries couldn't, allowing him to outmaneuver his opponents and win decisive battles that way.

 

Sources used:

@Pigeon_of_War

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Excellent design proposal, Lert!   I would look forward to seeing this in game.

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51 minutes ago, Lert said:

This would give Witte de With the flexibility and vision control to challenge cap circles and provide forward scouting in a way no other destroyer in this game can.

Yet.

 

Please add me to the pre-order list.

-R

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Very nice proposal and interesting read. I can't wait to get the drop on enemy dds trying to cap with my spotter plane. Thats quite unique, I'd definately buy. Also It's time we had our first Dutch ship. Canada got theirs, I saw Argentina is getthing theirs..

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As you know from your previous posts, and my previous responses, I totally support the Admiralen class ships being added into the game; and you've done a great job of selling this one as a premium addition. Some of the stats I really like are 1). Her detection rating. At 6.2 stock with Captains skills and camo she would drop to 5.5 or 5.4 K, which would make her best in tier I believe and totally competitive.  Also, 2). while you state her guns aren't strong enough to make her a gunboat (reload is her handicap I believe you said), they are most definitely strong enough to give anyone second thoughts about just bowling her over. And finally, 3). Yes, while her small size and tonnage make her HP pool low, the addition of hydro and the spotting plane make her unique and something to fear. The only other ability I might propose would be to make her torps able to be fired singly; as the Dutch and the British were very cooperative with each other on naval matters in the 1930's.

Congrats on a great presentation of a very competitive ship, which I am also looking forward to seeing in either a separate Dutch line or, barring that, a pan European line. (although to be totally honest I think including her in a Pan European line, and dismissing a complete Dutch line, would be a mistake and would cheat the player base out of some outstanding ships.)

Thanks for sharing this with us; looking forward to seeing her soon, and hoping it will be quicker than we saw Haida.

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Excellent proposal as always. I am not much of a DD player although I do surprise clan mates by taking one out every once in awhile. The only premium DD I own that I payed for is the Sims that I got with the pre-order pack.

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I think it's important to keep in mind that Gallant is also a T6, and has a 2k hp pool advantage, superior rof, and 8 single-fire torps with a concealment of 6km. I'd definitely place Witte's minimum concealment to 5.8km or under.

     Blyskawica's guns are actually slightly below 10rpm and could only be buffed to a 5.8s reload, this would put her at a serious disadvantage to ships such as Gallant, Anshan/Fushun/Gnevny, Aigle, and Farragut. (Basically everything except Gaede and the IJN.) Blyskawica works so well at T7 due to her enormous hit pool and almost double the fire power of Witte only a tier higher than your proposition for Witte.

     As for her torps, you stated "This is a very modest torpedo for a very modest broadside alpha strike. However, with only triple tube launchers, it's very likely these will reload quicker than the 70s on Błyskawica's torpedo setup." Is there anything other than exactly the same reload required? 70s is already plenty fast, and on a gunboat no less.

     While I like the concept of a catapult fighter on a destroyer, to place her a tier higher simply because of that is not enough, imo. She has the firepower of a T5, the hitpoints of a T5, the maneuverability is meh on level with Gallant (a superior ship based on these stats), and overall just not fit for T6. However, much like Huanghe and Perth, there is a strong argument for creeping smoke plus catapult fighter to boost her up a tier. This would be a powerful combination to use those Blyskawica guns and keep the ship from being forced about. She would have the hydroacoustic search already just to keep torpedoes lit defensively. A very similar approach that has been taken to Perth to buff her a tier according to some. Also a very similar approach to buff Haida due to her lack of torpedoes as well.

     Essentially, a catapult fighter and hydro isn't enough to buff a relatively average T5 up to T6. It'd really need something to give it that extra oomph I'm not seeing here. So would I buy? Yes, of course I would, I'm a wallet warrior with 40+ premiums. Would I recommend buying it, though? Based on these stats, definitely a hard sell. I like tier five through seven, but I couldn't really recommend this ship.

 

I like that second camo though.

Edited by The_GoDDfather

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4 minutes ago, The_GoDDfather said:

However, much like Huanghe and Perth, there is a strong argument for creeping smoke plus catapult fighter to boost her up a tier.

This is certainly a possibility. Testing would show any deficiencies. My proposal is just that. A proposal, to start from.

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42 minutes ago, Lert said:

So without further ado, let's get down to the nitty gritty of it, and present HNLMS Witte de With:

I like.

Of the 8 Admiralen Class it would be tight between Kortenaer and Witte de With for me, with WdW being a definite contender. I can see why as part of the second group she might have some advantages if you're trying to get into T6 with her.

43 minutes ago, Lert said:

4x single Siderius No. 4 120mm guns.

Hmm, haven't heard them called that before, Wilton-Fijenoord No. 5's, but the same gun. I agree on the stats, though I think increasing the ROF a bit above 10 RPM would be reasonable given 4 guns and a mixed torpedo/gun design. 

43 minutes ago, Lert said:

This is a very modest torpedo for a very modest broadside alpha strike. However, with only triple tube launchers, it's very likely these will reload quicker than the 70s on Błyskawica's torpedo setup.

Same torpedoes, same triple launchers as Blyskawica - same 23s/tube seems about right so the same 70s. It's certainly fast, but overall if you're in the cap-fight role I like torpedo number over reload, you may only get one volley either way and clipping a DD with 6 instead of 8 torpedoes is harder. I might be tempted to de-emphasize the torpedoes, while ability to stealth torp is nice it's a bit marginal. 

Balanced ships have advantages, but not-great at multiple things can be a pain, and then makes some captain skills less impactful. A gunboat might fit a little better into the future DD line?

 

On concealment I think the Dutch destroyer and the British T5 Acasta (6.8km base conceal) share some common heritage with design elements of  the earlier Ambuscade. They both have the superfiring turrets forward of the bridge, which means the bridge has to be higher. Acasta is 0.3m longer, and 0.3m wider than WdW, height is harder to compare but likely similar. I'd agree on good concealment, but probably more like 6.7 base for about 5.9, rather than the extremely good 6.2 for 5.4 of the Minekaze - the IJN torpedo boats have all their armament on the same deck level, with bridge only a bit taller than that so they should be lower profile than the superfiring ships. Then again Haida gets down to 5.7km...

 

I'd prefer the spotter plane option myself as smoke+spotter is a bit less commonplace than the increasingly saturated smoke+hydro market with German destroyers and Loyang now being supplemented by British destroyers. Spotter has some pros and cons which make it a bit more nuanced than hydro - the plane might be shot down, it changes aiming perspective, may not help with torpedoes if it's on the wrong side, but - allows longer range shooting/shooting over, may spot further out, more unusual etc.

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40 minutes ago, mofton said:

Hmm, haven't heard them called that before, Wilton-Fijenoord No. 5's, but the same gun.

Wikipedia calls them Siderius no. 5, Netherlandsnavy calls them Siderius No. 4. They're all the same guns though, even the different marks Siderius only differed in mount and were the same Bofors design in terms of breech and barrel.

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43 minutes ago, mofton said:

Same torpedoes, same triple launchers as Blyskawica - same 23s/tube seems about right so the same 70s.

Yeah you're right. I'd mistakenly gotten in my head that Blys had 2x 4. Mea culpa.

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Don't know if I'd buy it or not, Lert. But, I threw you a +1. The Dutch should definitely be in the game as their own nation and not as part of Pan-Europe.

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There are not any Dutch ships in the game and there needs to be some. The Dutch navy fought just as hard and bravely as any of the other allies during WWII. I would buy Witte de With.

 

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1 hour ago, ET1_Allen said:

There are not any Dutch ships in the game and there needs to be some. The Dutch navy fought just as hard and bravely as any of the other allies during WWII. I would buy Witte de With.

Yes, but I'd prefer De Ruyter or Java to this DD. I'd consider buying one of those two ships.

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27 minutes ago, DonKarnage2 said:

Yes, but I'd prefer De Ruyter or Java to this DD. I'd consider buying one of those two ships.

Those are more famous, but their problem is that they fall outside the 'golden zone' of premiums T6 - 8, and are fairly standard, boring designs offering little value other than their historical significance.

Chances are we'll see de Ruyter before Witte de With though.

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I'd also buy De Zeven Provinciën if it was offered as a T2 or T3.

Mostly because she has the rather unique historical significance of having been sunk not once but twice during World War II. The Japanese sank her in 1942 just before the Battle of Java Sea. Then, after the Japanese captured Surabaya, they raised the ship and the Allies sank her a second time in 1943.

Also, the ship had a mutiny aboard in 1933 which was ended when the Dutch bombed it from the air, one of the earliest demonstrations of air power being used against a surface ship successfully.

What makes you think de Ruyter couldn't make it as a T6? Historically, she was sank by Myoko's so T6 should be about right. She'd be a bit light in the weaponry department, but I have to think her smallish size and good speed would make her viable there still, especially if a new consumable for "Scout Float Plane" were added with 2 charges since she carried 2 Fokker C-11's. I figure the scout float plane could work as a fire and forget scout item. Activate plane, pick a map grid square, plane goes off to that square and scouts, staying on station for, say 5 minutes or until shot down.

Edited by DonKarnage2

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19 minutes ago, DonKarnage2 said:

What makes you think de Ruyter couldn't make it as a T6? Historically, she was sank by Myoko's so T6 should be about right.

Historically Iowa sank Katori, that doesn't make Katori T8 material. History didn't have an MM keeping relative tiers in check.

de Ruyter simply doesn't have the offensive power, armor, hitpoints or speed to survive at T6, no matter what consumables or tweaking are applied to her, without lifting her into the area of the absurd.

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26 minutes ago, Lert said:

Historically Iowa sank Katori, that doesn't make Katori T8 material. History didn't have an MM keeping relative tiers in check.

de Ruyter simply doesn't have the offensive power, armor, hitpoints or speed to survive at T6, no matter what consumables or tweaking are applied to her, without lifting her into the area of the absurd.

The real world MM is brutal, just ask the tier 5 IJN Kirshima about the tier 8 USS Washington. The fact that the Washington had a legendary captain, Willis A "Ching" Lee, only made it worse for the hapless Kirshima.

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For those unfamiliar with what @BrushWolf is referencing, per Wikipedia:

"Washington, undetected, managed to evade the Japanese fleet, and at midnight fired on Kirishima from 5,800 yards (5,300 m), point blank range for Washington's 16-inch/45-caliber guns, which were easily capable of penetrating Kirishima's armor at their maximum range. Kirishima was hit by at least nine primary and seventeen secondary battery projectiles, destroying her bow 14-inch turrets, jamming her rear 14-inch turrets and steering, setting her superstructure afire, and causing the battleship to list 18 degrees to starboard. Initially, the light cruiser Nagara attempted to tow her out of Ironbottom Sound. When it became clear she could not be salvaged, the surviving Japanese destroyers evacuated Admiral Kondō and the remaining survivors. Kirishima capsized at 03:25 on the morning of 15 November 1942, with 212 crewmen lost."

So far as I know, it is also possible to dive the wreck of the Kirishima today.

Edited by DonKarnage2
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4 minutes ago, DonKarnage2 said:

For those unfamiliar with what @BrushWolf is referencing, per Wikipedia:

"Washington, undetected, managed to evade the Japanese fleet, and at midnight fired on Kirishima from 5,800 yards (5,300 m), point blank range for Washington's 16-inch/45-caliber guns, which were easily capable of penetrating Kirishima's armor at their maximum range. Kirishima was hit by at least nine primary and seventeen secondary battery projectiles, destroying her bow 14-inch turrets, jamming her rear 14-inch turrets and steering, setting her superstructure afire, and causing the battleship to list 18 degrees to starboard. Initially, the light cruiser Nagara attempted to tow her out of Ironbottom Sound. When it became clear she could not be salvaged, the surviving Japanese destroyers evacuated Admiral Kondō and the remaining survivors. Kirishima capsized at 03:25 on the morning of 15 November 1942, with 212 crewmen lost."

The nine and seventeen numbers were based on expected hit rates. The reality as logged by the Japanese was that the Kirshima was hit by twenty(!!!) 16" shells and the 17 expected 5".

http://www.navweaps.com/index_lundgren/Kirishima_Damage_Analysis.pdf

 

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