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glock19601

DD Play

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DD play is just about worthless anymore. There is hardly any need to play this ship type anymore. Every match now has 4-5 radars. IJN dd's have been almost unplayable as it has been with the crappy torp detection. This game has pretty well kill the DD's.

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The point being , you talking about DD plays with only 13 battles under your belt and no one will value your opinion due to only 13 battles ! ! !

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26 minutes ago, glock19601 said:

DD play is just about worthless anymore. There is hardly any need to play this ship type anymore. Every match now has 4-5 radars. IJN dd's have been almost unplayable as it has been with the crappy torp detection. This game has pretty well kill the DD's.

I agree, but...

You mentioned the word Radar.

This thread will likely be removed by @Radar_X

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13 battles isn't even enough to get past tier 3... how the heck did you ever manage to get a tier 6 DD in 13 battles.

Also... the first tier in the game to carry radar is tier 7. So again, how the heck did you ever make it to a tier where radar even shows up with 13 battles?

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33 minutes ago, Cruiser_StLouis said:

1 post & 13 battles.

:cap_yes:

 

11 minutes ago, KURT_WOLFF said:

The point being , you talking about DD plays with only 13 battles under your belt and no one will value your opinion due to only 13 battles ! ! !

 

5 minutes ago, RipNuN2 said:

Didn't know you could see radar after only 13 battles. :cap_tea:

 

 

5 minutes ago, Levits said:

13 battles isn't even enough to get past tier 3... how the heck did you ever manage to get a tier 6 DD in 13 battles.

Also... the first tier in the game to carry radar is tier 7. So again, how the heck did you ever make it to a tier where radar even shows up with 13 battles?

INB4 "this is an alt, I have more games on my main account" :cap_book:

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Well he sure as heck doesn't have to worry about radar yet XD

If he does, then he purchased a premium DD and doesn't have a clue on how to use it.

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56 minutes ago, Cruiser_StLouis said:

1 post & 13 battles.

:cap_yes:

I assume that this is a reroll account for the purpose of posting without giving away his real game ID.

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1 hour ago, glock19601 said:

DD play is just about worthless anymore. There is hardly any need to play this ship type anymore. Every match now has 4-5 radars. IJN dd's have been almost unplayable as it has been with the crappy torp detection. This game has pretty well kill the DD's.

Clutch Move In Before The Lock GIF - ClutchMove InBeforeTheLock GIFs
 

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1 hour ago, glock19601 said:

DD play is just about worthless anymore. There is hardly any need to play this ship type anymore. Every match now has 4-5 radars. IJN dd's have been almost unplayable as it has been with the crappy torp detection. This game has pretty well kill the DD's.

Bovine Excrement!

It's only really bad players who are getting themselves killed due to radar.  But sadly, there are far too many bad DD players.  I was in a tier 10 battle last night with 5 DD per team, where my team got massacred.  Guess what happened.  I'll tell ya.  Not a single enemy DD died before our team's five DDs had been killed.  Absolutely pathetic!!!

I will agree that IJN DDs have kind of taken it in the shorts, due to the combination of radar and bad detection range on their torps.  IMO, IJN DDs desperately need a massive torpedo rework.

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3 minutes ago, torpsRus said:
 
 

Meep, meep!!!

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Bovine Excrement!

It's only really bad players who are getting themselves killed due to radar.  But sadly, there are far too many bad DD players.  I was in a tier 10 battle last night with 5 DD per team, where my team got massacred.  Guess what happened.  I'll tell ya.  Not a single enemy DD died before our team's five DDs had been killed.  Absolutely pathetic!!!

I will agree that IJN DDs have kind of taken it in the shorts, due to the combination of radar and bad detection range on their torps.  IMO, IJN DDs desperately need a massive torpedo rework.

Brace yourself, its prolly going to get worse.

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4 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

Brace yourself, its prolly going to get worse.

^THIS^

 

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1 hour ago, Cruiser_StLouis said:

1 post & 13 battles.

:cap_yes:

Not to mention no DD play with tier 4 being his highest tier, the radar must be brutal down there. Any bets on this being a reroll to troll?

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15 minutes ago, Wulfgarn said:

Brace yourself, its prolly going to get worse.

^ Probably true.  I'm mostly a DD player.  But on those occasions when I play something else, it's frustrating to me to watch so much bad DD play.  And it ends up driving me back into DDs just so that I can feel like my teams will have at least one decent DD player.

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18 hours ago, Crucis said:

^ Probably true.  I'm mostly a DD player.  But on those occasions when I play something else, it's frustrating to me to watch so much bad DD play.  And it ends up driving me back into DDs just so that I can feel like my teams will have at least one decent DD player.

Man that's so true. I found that it is sometimes more of a feeling and I get games with several good DDs so I feel comfortable using other ships for a while but the first time I get a game where my teams DDs are poor and I go straight back to the old "Can't trust someone else to do the job right, so I guess I got to do it myself" for at least a few games before I can convince myself that there are other competent DD captains out there.

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19 hours ago, Crucis said:

^ Probably true.  I'm mostly a DD player.  But on those occasions when I play something else, it's frustrating to me to watch so much bad DD play.  And it ends up driving me back into DDs just so that I can feel like my teams will have at least one decent DD player.

I get the exact same feeling whenever I play a cruiser.  My problem is that when I switch back to DDs, the cruisers on my team are terrible. (why isn't there a "banging head on wall" emote?)

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29 minutes ago, Harv72b said:

I get the exact same feeling whenever I play a cruiser.  My problem is that when I switch back to DDs, the cruisers on my team are terrible. (why isn't there a "banging head on wall" emote?)

I can see that, Harv.  The problem as I see it is that good DD play is critical to overall success in most battles.  Teams can get by with weak cruiser play if the BBs can take up some of the slack.  But without the DDs doing the important DD things like scouting, counter-DD work, spotting torps and enemy ships, contending for caps, etc., most teams usually end up sitting on their collective behinds and eventually losing.

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The major problem is that DD play is HARD, compared to any other play, and that includes CVs.  There's so much more to worry about, instant death lurks around every corner, detection methods are increasingly ubiquitous and cover vast quantities of the map, and the primary offensive tool you have is increasingly less useful. You have very little defense other than nimbleness, as your stealth becomes harder and hard to maintain.

The average player copes with this up through about T6, and then it starts to get worse REALLY fast. Radar is a big part of that, but it's not the only part.

So, it happens that once people start hitting T7 in a DD, they do one of three things:

  1. Find it frustrating, and quit playing DDs altogether.
  2. Just don't care, and stay a crappy player.
  3. Decide that they like being the butt-boy of WoWS, and just get better.

Most of the population picks #1.  I'd say #2 and #3 are about equal.

If we want to get back the "average" DD player, then WG's gonna have to address two big issues:  (1) cut WAAAAAY back on the ability of everything to detect DDs, and (2) noticeably INCREASE the torp hit rate. It needs to be closer to 15% than 5% for DDs. 

Doing #1 means dumping hydro off a lot of stuff that has it, fixing radar's magic see-through-islands ability, and stop handing out radar to everything under the sun.  Doing #2 is easier, just drop the torp detection range a bit (.2 or .3km across the board) and treat torpedoes as ships for detection purposes (remove the "permaspotting" of torps).  As compensation, DD torp damage should drop 25% or so.

 

 

(and yes, this is a respin account.)

 

Oh, and it absolutely can be "better then".  As in, "I remember the post-beta IJN torp capability. It was better then..."   :cap_look:

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29 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

The major problem is that DD play is HARD, compared to any other play, and that includes CVs.  There's so much more to worry about, instant death lurks around every corner, detection methods are increasingly ubiquitous and cover vast quantities of the map, and the primary offensive tool you have is increasingly less useful. You have very little defense other than nimbleness, as your stealth becomes harder and hard to maintain.

The average player copes with this up through about T6, and then it starts to get worse REALLY fast. Radar is a big part of that, but it's not the only part.

So, it happens that once people start hitting T7 in a DD, they do one of three things:

  1. Find it frustrating, and quit playing DDs altogether.
  2. Just don't care, and stay a crappy player.
  3. Decide that they like being the butt-boy of WoWS, and just get better.

Most of the population picks #1.  I'd say #2 and #3 are about equal.

If we want to get back the "average" DD player, then WG's gonna have to address two big issues:  (1) cut WAAAAAY back on the ability of everything to detect DDs, and (2) noticeably INCREASE the torp hit rate. It needs to be closer to 15% than 5% for DDs. 

Doing #1 means dumping hydro off a lot of stuff that has it, fixing radar's magic see-through-islands ability, and stop handing out radar to everything under the sun.  Doing #2 is easier, just drop the torp detection range a bit (.2 or .3km across the board) and treat torpedoes as ships for detection purposes (remove the "permaspotting" of torps).  As compensation, DD torp damage should drop 25% or so.

 

 

(and yes, this is a respin account.)

 

Oh, and it absolutely can be "better then".  As in, "I remember the post-beta IJN torp capability. It was better then..."   :cap_look:

Excepting F3 and Kamikaze/Fujin/Kamikaze R torps, a lot of torps could use a few knots of speed.

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9 hours ago, LAnybody said:

The major problem is that DD play is HARD, compared to any other play, and that includes CVs.  There's so much more to worry about, instant death lurks around every corner, detection methods are increasingly ubiquitous and cover vast quantities of the map, and the primary offensive tool you have is increasingly less useful. You have very little defense other than nimbleness, as your stealth becomes harder and hard to maintain.

The average player copes with this up through about T6, and then it starts to get worse REALLY fast. Radar is a big part of that, but it's not the only part.

So, it happens that once people start hitting T7 in a DD, they do one of three things:

  1. Find it frustrating, and quit playing DDs altogether.
  2. Just don't care, and stay a crappy player.
  3. Decide that they like being the butt-boy of WoWS, and just get better.

Most of the population picks #1.  I'd say #2 and #3 are about equal.

If we want to get back the "average" DD player, then WG's gonna have to address two big issues:  (1) cut WAAAAAY back on the ability of everything to detect DDs, and (2) noticeably INCREASE the torp hit rate. It needs to be closer to 15% than 5% for DDs. 

Doing #1 means dumping hydro off a lot of stuff that has it, fixing radar's magic see-through-islands ability, and stop handing out radar to everything under the sun.  Doing #2 is easier, just drop the torp detection range a bit (.2 or .3km across the board) and treat torpedoes as ships for detection purposes (remove the "permaspotting" of torps).  As compensation, DD torp damage should drop 25% or so.

 

 

(and yes, this is a respin account.)

 

Oh, and it absolutely can be "better then".  As in, "I remember the post-beta IJN torp capability. It was better then..."   :cap_look:

So while I agree with alot of this, I do see some flaws. I have made my peace with most of the radar with the exception of the island radar variety. Torps by nature are slower than guns to a lower hit rate than guns is reasonable. While 15% would be great I would probably be more than willing to accept 10%. I like you points for torp detection but I would almost never accept any drop in damage of my torps. The attacks with the highest hit percentage are close range ambushes (about 5-6 km at most) or other cases where the DD is so close to the enemy ship that all or most of the torps are going to hit 90% of the time. If these torps don't sink the enemy ship then the DD is dead. This can be accepted fairly easily if the enemy only took a couple torps due to good positioning/maneuvering or bad torp placement but I should expect any ship to sink after about 6 or more torp hits unless it is a full health tier X BB. With a 25% damage reduction I would have to connect on every last torp (about 10 or so) in order for that BB to sink and even the probably by flooding. Maybe I could stomach the initial damage reduction if there were a much higher flooding chance and if flooding dealt more damage at a faster rate or if I could cause multiple simultaneous floods. I understand the willingness of this compromise for IJN DDs as they would benefit the most from it but most other DDs still need that ability for a last chance devastating strike at close range

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I'm OK with the general implementation of Radar (as a short-duration active/modest cooldown consumable).  I'm fine with the range on it.  But the see-through-islands stuff is just AWFUL for the game, as has been discussed to death elsewhere.  And the increased proliferation of radar ships has made it even worse - we're currently at the place where there are hardly ever less than 2 radar ships per side in a T8-10 match. And that's before the current US CL line stuff upped it drastically.  After that settles down, I'd bet on well over half of all cruisers you see in a game have radar, and that still means there'll be the odd BB or DD with it too, so 25% of the ships having radar will be the standard from now on.  Even before the US CL stuff, I've regularly been in matches where HALF the opposing team has radar. That's FAR, FAR, FAR too much for a DD to deal with.

And WG's stubborn refusal to fix MM to use consumables (or even just account for ships which always have radar) makes it horrible for mid-tier ships. Sorry, but there's ZERO way a T5 should ever be seeing a radar ship - the skill level of players and the map size make radar massively OP on those games.  Heck, I'd even argue that a T6 should never be seeing radar except on a T7 ship - that is, very rarely, and never when up against T8s (because the power balance is already horrid in T6 vs T8).  T6s are just really learning to deal with good CV players, and forcing in frequent massively powerful radar cruisers as opponent is really, really mean to them.  It's really not at all fun to play when you have a T6 DD up against a T8 radar cruiser.  And that's from me, an above-average DD player with 17+ point captains.  I can only imagine how demoralizing it is for a player with a T5 or T6 DD, 8 point captain, trying to play in a game with a two T8 radar cruisers.

It's really no wonder people quit playing DDs after T6, when they have to put up with that kind of crap.

 


 

As to torps - for the short-range stuff which really is the knife-fight-only torps, I'd leave their damage alone, because yes, their torp hit rate is already sufficient, and you do want the severe threat of a single-salvo kill.  For the longer-range stuff (i.e. anything you can stealth torp with), the damage reduction of 25% should very much be enforced, as it's compensated for by increased hit rate.  Those DDs with long-range torps shouldn't be expecting to blast stuff at point-blank range. A Minekaze charging a BB is NOT the playstyle we want to encourage, while a Kiev ambushing one around an island IS.

That is, I'm advocating NOT for DDs to be able to do MORE damage with torps, but to be able to do more CONSISTENT damage with torps. Right now, damage consistency is all over the map - you're seeing close to 3 standard deviations between matches. My old Yugumo (where I had a WTR of 1300) averaged in the 4-hits/game department (which, in and of itself, it pathetic), but I'd regularly get 8 and 1 hit games.

If you want to have DDs be fun to play, the average player has to be able to score hits consistently to see that they're having some contribution. Yes, spotting and capping is great and all, but let's be honest: it's the torps that are the whole reason the vast majority of players do DDs. We have to make it fun to keep them engaged.  And it DOES very much matter to player satisfaction if they get more hits per game, even if overall damage scored across multiple games is about the same.

In short, here's what really needs to happen to DD torpedoes, by nation:

  1. USSR short-range torps:  NOTHING
  2. USSR long-range torps:  bump their speed by 5 knots + reduce damage by 15%
  3. US short-range torps: bump their speed by 5 knots
  4. US long-range torps: bump their speed by 5 knots + reduce their damage by 15%
  5. KM long-range torps: reduce their detection by 0.2km + reduce their damage by 10%
  6. IJN long-range torps: reduce detection by 0.4km + reduce damage by 25% + tighten the dispersion up by at least 25%
  7. PA long-range torps: reduce damage by 15%, lower reload time by 15%

Oh, and make the max range of ANY torpedo 14km. 

Torpedo hit rates should be about double what they are now: 12%, rather than 6%, if we want to have any hope of improving DD play.

 

 

 

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