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RagingxMarmoset

Wouldn't USS Oregon City have made more sense as the tier IX USN CA?

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I'm about halfway through Baltimore and was looking at Buffalo. She seems like such an abberation for the heavy cruiser line, not to mention she never even existed. I feel like Oregon City would have made for a more natural progression with some tweaks to make her competitive in tier IX. I don't know, I'm bored at work and thinking too hard about this stuff. What's your take on it?

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Perhaps, but Buffalo was already modeled, textured and animated for another purpose and they elected to modify it for the T9 CA slot instead of taking the researching, modeling, texturing and animating a whole new asset.

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No it wouldn't. Oregon city would literally have no gameplay difference whatsoever from baltimore. It be like the difference between playing 8 inch Mogami and Ibuki. Just a clone with nothing to differentiate them other than consumables. And typically when a ship line has stagnation like that, it causes problems. Plus the real world power difference between Des Moines and Oregon City/Baltimore, is just too great for these ships to be in the same tier, without giving the baltimore/Oregoan city design a highly unrealistic Rate of Fire.

Edited by ryuukei8569
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They had Buff sitting in the gamefiles since Beta, they were gonna use it one way or another. 

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They could've put New Orleans at 7, left Baltimore at 9 and put Wichita at 8. Wichita is already a tier 8 tech tree CA in WoWS Blitz.

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5 hours ago, ryuukei8569 said:

No it wouldn't. Oregon city would literally have no gameplay difference whatsoever from baltimore. It be like the difference between playing 8 inch Mogami and Ibuki. Just a clone with nothing to differentiate them other than consumables. And typically when a ship line has stagnation like that, it causes problems. Plus the real world power difference between Des Moines and Oregon City/Baltimore, is just too great for these ships to be in the same tier, without giving the baltimore/Oregoan city design a highly unrealistic Rate of Fire.

^This. 

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It's just a Baltimore with a different superstructure.  It shouldn't be better than a Baltimore, any more than a Fargo shouldn't be better than a Cleveland.

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4 hours ago, ramp4ge said:

They could've put New Orleans at 7, left Baltimore at 9 and put Wichita at 8. Wichita is already a tier 8 tech tree CA in WoWS Blitz.

They could have, but Baltimore was already having problems at T9, and merely inserting Wichita in at T8 doesn't fix that. Wichita is basically the same as Baltimore, but a bit smaller. Wichita will likely appear as a premium eventually (my guess is with fewer HP and a heal or something.) 

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4 hours ago, ramp4ge said:

They could've put New Orleans at 7, left Baltimore at 9 and put Wichita at 8. Wichita is already a tier 8 tech tree CA in WoWS Blitz.

Wichita is not t8 material.  Due to the way the game works, it's worse than the New Orleans.  10k ton treaty cruisers = T7.

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10 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Wichita is not t8 material.  Due to the way the game works, it's worse than the New Orleans.  10k ton treaty cruisers = T7.

 

Her belt was significantly better than New Orleans (152mm at it's thickest as opposed to New Orleans' 127m). She also had the newer generation of 8"/55s, same as Baltimore in individually-sleeved turrets which could've been represented ingame by better dispersion. Train rate of the turrets was also faster than the New Orleans, since Wichita used the same train motors as the Baltimore. 5.3*/sec instead of 3.5*/sec on the New Orleans. 

 

Wichita also had 5"/38 dual purpose secondary batteries, which New Orleans did not have.

 

Wichita could work at tier 8 pretty easily. She's a solid upgrade over the New Orleans. Especially when you take soft stats into consideration, and some of those soft stats (especially dispersion and turret rotation speeds) Wichita was historically better than New Orleans anyway.

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Wichita shares the same problems as New Orleans, and her advantages don't really play out well. Her armour means precious little in game, better it may be, but it is not too much a factor when BBs will still punch straight through it without a care in the world. She has slightly worse maneuverability than New Orleans, and her firepower is not too much better, if at all. The SHS shells are not present, so Wichita effectively has the same firepower. New Orleans already has her turret traverse buff, so that advantage of Wichita's is ruled out. AA remains significantly better, but AA is not a large factor anyway.  In the ways that you could make Wichita a tier 8, you can apply the same buffs to New Orleans (or Baltimore as the case turned out), and still get a tier 8 out of all the ships. Hence you could have just left New Orleans a T8 by the same logic that would make Wichita or Baltimore a tier 8. (How bout a 27mm plate end New Orleans with a 10s reload anyone?).

 

Baltimore was fine at tier 9, she had found her niche and settling in well as a mini Des Moines. A ship with a high capacity to influence a game, with a lower average damage. I couldn't net the same results with her at T8 than T9, so I don't particularly like the change. That HP repair made a lot of difference. The reload mod was also a nice buff to RoF too. Buffalo is an unwanted jolt in playstyle, that gives up a lot of what I value in a USN Cruiser playstyle for that extra turret. T9 Baltimore was/is very much superior to Buffalo in my eyes. While possible that you can pull a Kagero/Yugumo with Baltimore and Oregon City, it is hardly ideal, Baltimore really should have just remained at tier 9 where she was doing well. But WG had a gap at tier 6 they couldn't be bothered to fill with a new ship, and so used the lazy route of just bringing Buffalo out of storage. 

 

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Wichita's firepower would be better in the way of dispersion.

 

A stock Baltimore has better dispersion than a New Orleans with ASM1. So Wichita at tier 8 would have better dispersion than New Orleans, since she used the same individually-sleeved mounts as Baltimore, equaling more hits, equaling greater firepower. 

 

Mobility-wise, Wichita was half a knot faster than New Orleans. 33 knots to 32.5. 

 

The AA is a pretty big deal. It's apparently big enough a deal to have Wargaming balance the entire US CL line around it. 

 

As for armor, her armor would be basically the same as Baltimore's and she'd have Helena's low waterline citadel, since she's based on the Brooklyn-class and so is Helena. She'd also have the US cruiser 'stepped' citadel, which would put her magazines well below the waterline. Scale back the plating from Baltimore's 27mm to 25mm and she'd still prevent overmatches from 14" guns. She would've worked out fine.

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maybe the new tier8 usn prem cruiser could be orange city.

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10 hours ago, ramp4ge said:

 

Her belt was significantly better than New Orleans (152mm at it's thickest as opposed to New Orleans' 127m). She also had the newer generation of 8"/55s, same as Baltimore in individually-sleeved turrets which could've been represented ingame by better dispersion. Train rate of the turrets was also faster than the New Orleans, since Wichita used the same train motors as the Baltimore. 5.3*/sec instead of 3.5*/sec on the New Orleans. 

 

Wichita also had 5"/38 dual purpose secondary batteries, which New Orleans did not have.

 

Wichita could work at tier 8 pretty easily. She's a solid upgrade over the New Orleans. Especially when you take soft stats into consideration, and some of those soft stats (especially dispersion and turret rotation speeds) Wichita was historically better than New Orleans anyway.

Those newer generation guns, fired the same old shells.  Her ammo hoists could not handle the long SHS.  The difference is, Wichita used a lower velocity.  So, your guns will have more shell flight time, and more floaty trajectories.  You'll actually GAIN nothing out of it.

5"/38.  yay.  Slightly more AA range.  Wooo

Due to game mechanics, she is /not/ an upgrade over Nola at all.  She's got a larger, easier to hit hull that will soak more damage, while not having any more hit points to compensate for it.  WG does what they want with dispersion and turret rotation, so again...no bonus there.  Slightly better armor and a slight increase in AA range is not enough to put the ship into T8.  WG made the decision that the "good" treaty cruisers such as the Algerie, New Orleans, and Brooklyn are T7.  Wichita, while better IRL, is not enough of an upgrade to warrant T8 based on the previous balance decisions that WG has made.

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Those "same old shells" worked fine at tier 8. I don't think anyone ever said tier 8 New Orleans had issues with it's guns. When Baltimore went down to 8, people were convinced it was going to lose it's Superheavies. Superheavies are not a requirement for tier 8. Wichita would have historical reason to be significantly more accurate, consistently, than New Orleans, just as Baltimore, ingame, is significantly more accurate than New Orleans. You say "No bonus there", but we already see a bonus there with Baltimore.Baltimore, Stock, is more accurate than New Orleans with the accuracy module. Wichita would be just as accurate as Baltimore.

 

5"/38s. That's a pretty big "yay" as far as I'm concerned. "slightly" more AA range? That's a 21% increase in range of the heavy AA aura. That's pretty freaking good. You also get a DPM increase because the 5"/38s produce higher DPM than the 5"/25s.

 

I don't see how it could be anything but an upgrade over what the tier 8 New Orleans was.

 

1) Better gun despersion

2) Better armor

3) Better citadel placement - compare New Orleans to Helena

4) Faster

5) Better AA

 

I think she'd be a significant improvement over the New Orleans ingame, just as she was a significant improvement over New Orleans historically. And hell, Wargaming already has her as a tier 8 tech tree cruiser in WoWS Blitz.

 

mkdslVl.jpg

 

But now that the cruiser split is complete, it's all hindsight anyway. I still want Wichita. I'd welcome her as a tier 8 premium cruiser. At this point it's one of the only premium ships they could get me to buy. Especially since they completely ruined Boise.

 

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10 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

Those newer generation guns, fired the same old shells.  Her ammo hoists could not handle the long SHS.  The difference is, Wichita used a lower velocity.  So, your guns will have more shell flight time, and more floaty trajectories.  You'll actually GAIN nothing out of it.

5"/38.  yay.  Slightly more AA range.  Wooo

Due to game mechanics, she is /not/ an upgrade over Nola at all.  She's got a larger, easier to hit hull that will soak more damage, while not having any more hit points to compensate for it.  WG does what they want with dispersion and turret rotation, so again...no bonus there.  Slightly better armor and a slight increase in AA range is not enough to put the ship into T8.  WG made the decision that the "good" treaty cruisers such as the Algerie, New Orleans, and Brooklyn are T7.  Wichita, while better IRL, is not enough of an upgrade to warrant T8 based on the previous balance decisions that WG has made.

Considering Wichita was also a one-off design? Sounds like a tier 7 premium to me.

Edited by KiyoSenkan

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23 minutes ago, Lampshade_M1A2 said:

Which would obsolete the already underperforming Indianapolis

 

Yeah, the only way that'd work would be to downtier the Indy to tier 6. And at tier 7 the Wichita would actually be better than the New Orleans unless they hit her with huge ahistorical soft-stat nerfs.

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I don't see a way to buff Oregon City to make her viable that wouldn't also make it an outlier. I mean you could give it something like being able to duel wield hydro and defensive AA like the light cruisers, but it would be weird to not have that feature on the Des Moines. Buffalo to me looks like a better stepping stone between Baltimore and Des Moines.

Edited by Chimera2

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