Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Soshi_Sone

Does 0.1 inch really make a differece in penetration?

79 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

3,417
[CNO]
[CNO]
Members
5,603 posts
17,325 battles

Just one tenth of an inch.  Doesn't seem like much.  But it can make a BIG difference.

Most of us are aware that the only main armament in the game that can overmatch a T8+ BB 32mm bow armor is the mighty 18 inchers carried by the Yamato and Musashi.  But did you know that an 18 inch shell CANNOT overmatch 32mm of armor.  Let's do the math.  The overmatch equation is 14.3 X Armor.  For 32mm of armor, that would be 14.3 X 32 = 457.6mm (18.01575 inches).  An 18 inch shell is 0.01575 inches TOO SMALL to overmatch pen 32mm of armor.

What gives?  We all know the Yamato and Musashi can do it?  Well, we say "18 inches" when we discuss the main armament, but the actual dimension is 18.1 inches.  And that extra one tenth of inch is enough to take the size over the top of the overmatch value.  

Trivia...true.  But damn cool trivia.  

 

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,146
[LEGIO]
Members
3,391 posts
7,326 battles

"Does 0.1 inch really make a difference in penetration?"

Not in real life. It's nonsense designed to favor the Yamato for no reason.

Meanwhile the 18" guns on the Conqueror are absolute trash.

  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,463
[VW]
Members
3,909 posts
18,832 battles
15 minutes ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Just one tenth of an inch.  Doesn't seem like much.  But it can make a BIG difference.

Most of us are aware that the only main armament in the game that can overmatch a T8+ BB 32mm bow armor is the mighty 18 inchers carried by the Yamato and Musashi.  But did you know that an 18 inch shell CANNOT overmatch 32mm of armor.  Let's do the math.  The overmatch equation is 14.3 X Armor.  For 32mm of armor, that would be 14.3 X 32 = 457.6mm (18.01575 inches).  An 18 inch shell is 0.01575 inches TOO SMALL to overmatch pen 32mm of armor.

What gives?  We all know the Yamato and Musashi can do it?  Well, we say "18 inches" when we discuss the main armament, but the actual dimension is 18.1 inches.  And that extra one tenth of inch is enough to take the size over the top of the overmatch value.  

Trivia...true.  But damn cool trivia.  

 

Yes, size does matter AND depends how you use it! :Smile_teethhappy:

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,253
[TMS]
Beta Testers
3,720 posts
13,934 battles

"off topic"

THATS WHAT SHE SAID

  • Funny 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33
[KTKM]
Beta Testers
82 posts
7,371 battles

Or just think of it this way. Yamato's guns are 460mm, which is actually about 18.1''. We just say 18'' because it's easier. So, her guns are actually 2.7mm or 0.08425'' above the magic overmatch line. Despite me being American, this is definitely a time when the metric system pulls through when imperial does not.

 

Edited by PrinzAlbatross
  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
200
[R-R-R]
Members
1,051 posts
9,928 battles

0.1 inch obviously won't make the big difference in real life. But it does in game.

Not a big fan of such mechanics but things are already this way for a long time. So no likely to see a change to this game design.

Edited by Exciton8964

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,299
[VCRUZ]
Members
4,049 posts
9,180 battles

IRL? No, there would be no difference. In game? Yes, there is difference for game balance.

 

Game balance > IRL

  • Cool 2
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,566
[REVY]
Members
6,454 posts
5,168 battles
5 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Does 0.1 inch really make a differece in penetration?

The short answer is: It depends on the gun.

For instance, see the comparison in penetration between the Sherman 76mm gun, and the Sherman Firefly 76.2mm gun.

CgOOUoH.jpg

This holds true for the Sherman 75mm compared to the Sherman 76mm.

92g6iiF.jpg

Edited by Sventex
  • Cool 1
  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,302
[WOLF8]
Members
6,849 posts
5,971 battles
6 hours ago, PrinzAlbatross said:

Or just think of it this way. Yamato's guns are 460mm, which is actually about 18.1''. We just say 18'' because it's easier. So, her guns are actually 2.7mm or 0.08425'' above the magic overmatch line. Despite me being American, this is definitely a time when the metric system pulls through when imperial does not.

 

Isn't U.S. the only country still using the imperial system? Or are there few other countries that also do? Even Great Britain ditched imperial for metric, didn't they? I wonder why U.S. still clings onto imperial...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,513
[SYN]
[SYN]
Members
8,502 posts
14,121 battles
8 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Isn't U.S. the only country still using the imperial system? Or are there few other countries that also do? Even Great Britain ditched imperial for metric, didn't they? I wonder why U.S. still clings onto imperial...

I believe it's the US and Myanmar.

Britain is an odd hodge-podge, I think of distances between cities in miles but it's 100m or so to that tree over there and my laptop is about 40cm wide, my height's in feet and inches though and my weight in stone and lbs, other weights are in kilos (obviously). I drink my beer in pints, but fuel prices are per litre, the car then achieves miles per gallon for range and speed limits are mph. 30' is a hot day because I think in centigrade.

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
242
[70]
Members
1,212 posts
6,662 battles
1 hour ago, Xlap said:

IRL? No, there would be no difference. In game? Yes, there is difference for game balance.

Game balance > IRL

Unless it beith of Glorious Mother Rossiya, where Khabarovsk trial speed with armament removed and no supplies onboard for the crew or spare parts for the boat is of course the most correct.

1 hour ago, Sventex said:

The short answer is: It depends on the gun.

You mean the gun's muzzle velocity and shell design.

13 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Isn't U.S. the only country still using the imperial system? Or are there few other countries that also do? Even Great Britain ditched imperial for metric, didn't they? I wonder why U.S. still clings onto imperial...

Murican Cepshunalizm.

  • Meh 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,476
[HINON]
Members
7,656 posts
8,168 battles
16 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Isn't U.S. the only country still using the imperial system? Or are there few other countries that also do? Even Great Britain ditched imperial for metric, didn't they? I wonder why U.S. still clings onto imperial...

US, Liberia and Mayanmar are the 3 counties that use Imperial. And the US still uses it because we like it and it works for us.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
254
[CAPGO]
Members
743 posts
7,269 battles

This is more about the concept than numbers. Battleships were usually built to withstand its own guns and the counterparts of other nations. At the time, world did not know Japan was building Yamato with 18.1 inch guns which meant their battleships were not designed to protect itself from Yamato's gun. And I believe WG wanted to follow this concept or even emphasize on it. I know some people will say "how about German's H-series BBs?" I know GK was designed with 20 inch guns in mind, but it's just a paper ship. WG want the Yamato to be THE legend and they want it to stay that way.

Edited by 0806sung

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,737
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
4,384 posts
681 battles
2 hours ago, Sventex said:

The short answer is: It depends on the gun.

For instance, see the comparison in penetration between the Sherman 76mm gun, and the Sherman Firefly 76.2mm gun.

CgOOUoH.jpg

 

 

That looks more like the 17pdr with APDS. If that's the case than the M1A1 should be shown tested with it's HVAP round. Which could actually hit something at range, unlike the 17pdr's APDS round.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
948 posts
4,337 battles
20 minutes ago, ramp4ge said:

 

That looks more like the 17pdTmhis r with APDS. If that's the case than the M1A1 should be shown tested with it's HVAP round. Which could actually hit something at range, unlike the 17pdr's APDS round.

Yes, I dont know if   they used the APDS 17 pdr or APBC , which would be "accurate: out to such ranges The 17pdr was a "bigger" gun so even with normal AP rounds would do better than the 76 I think . This might be noted in the "Kangi " (sp?)characters IDK. And it does say using "normal" AP rounds for the 75/76 which would all be HVAP by nomenclature and by default (IIRC)

Edited by Strachwitz666

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,830
[HINON]
Privateers, In AlfaTesters
7,762 posts
2,134 battles

For all those saying otherwise - yeah, actually, overmatch is a factor in real life, and a pretty big one at that. That being said, it's a value much smaller than 14.3x. The reason the ability for an AP shell to overmatch (or just basically power through the armor on sheer super-caliber power) is actually massively nerfed in the game - we fight at such close range that we would just citadel anyone showing their bows or stern easily due to how thin transverse bulkheads tended to be (and they were pretty much always flat). No one would be aggressive in this game with real overmatch mechanics. In fact, if I'm not mistaken the 'real' overmatch factor is something like 1.66x - although it's not exactly a clear-cut thing. After all, angle of impact and velocity depending, a 100mm plate can still resist a 203mm shell pretty easily - 100mm deck armor is almost impervious to 203mm shells at reasonable combat ranges, and even a belt will resist penetration at long range.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
808
[NWNG]
Members
3,070 posts
4,925 battles
8 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Just one tenth of an inch.  Doesn't seem like much.  But it can make a BIG difference.

Most of us are aware that the only main armament in the game that can overmatch a T8+ BB 32mm bow armor is the mighty 18 inchers carried by the Yamato and Musashi.  But did you know that an 18 inch shell CANNOT overmatch 32mm of armor.  Let's do the math.  The overmatch equation is 14.3 X Armor.  For 32mm of armor, that would be 14.3 X 32 = 457.6mm (18.01575 inches).  An 18 inch shell is 0.01575 inches TOO SMALL to overmatch pen 32mm of armor.

What gives?  We all know the Yamato and Musashi can do it?  Well, we say "18 inches" when we discuss the main armament, but the actual dimension is 18.1 inches.  And that extra one tenth of inch is enough to take the size over the top of the overmatch value.

Trivia...true.  But damn cool trivia.

 

460mm making it 18.1 inches not exactly 18 inches. We call them 18 inches because we rounded down.

Similar to how we call 100mm 4 inches, despite being 3.9 inches.

Edited by Counter_Gambit

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,069
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
4,701 posts
46 minutes ago, 0806sung said:

This is more about the concept than numbers. Battleships were usually built to withstand its own guns and the counterparts of other nations. At the time, world did not know Japan was building Yamato with 18.1 inch guns which meant their battleships were not designed to protect itself from Yamato's gun. And I believe WG wanted to follow this concept or even emphasize on it. I know some people will say "how about German's H-series BBs?" I know GK was designed with 20 inch guns in mind, but it's just a paper ship. WG want the Yamato to be THE legend and they want it to stay that way.

In theory battleships were armored to withstand their own guns.

In practice, so many battleships had late-design gun upgrades, or other compromises that had to be made resulting in armor reductions that very few battleships were actually armored against their own guns.

I think Montana would have been the first post WWI U.S. battleship actually armored against her own guns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
948 posts
4,337 battles
9 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:



Similar to how we call 100mm 4 inches, despite being 3.9 inches.

Who is the "we" in this case?. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
6,278 battles
8 hours ago, Soshi_Sone said:

Just one tenth of an inch.  Doesn't seem like much.  But it can make a BIG difference.

Most of us are aware that the only main armament in the game that can overmatch a T8+ BB 32mm bow armor is the mighty 18 inchers carried by the Yamato and Musashi.  But did you know that an 18 inch shell CANNOT overmatch 32mm of armor.  Let's do the math.  The overmatch equation is 14.3 X Armor.  For 32mm of armor, that would be 14.3 X 32 = 457.6mm (18.01575 inches).  An 18 inch shell is 0.01575 inches TOO SMALL to overmatch pen 32mm of armor.

What gives?  We all know the Yamato and Musashi can do it?  Well, we say "18 inches" when we discuss the main armament, but the actual dimension is 18.1 inches.  And that extra one tenth of inch is enough to take the size over the top of the overmatch value.  

Trivia...true.  But damn cool trivia.  

 

lol the same sort of thing used to confuse me as a kid with the Sherman. With the standard 75mm gun it was garbage against enemy tanks. WIth the 76mm gun it was far more competitive. I couldn't understand how 1mm could make a difference. It wasn't until I learned some physics that I understood why the 76mm gun was such a good anti tank weapon and the 75mm sucked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
242
[70]
Members
1,212 posts
6,662 battles
19 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

lol the same sort of thing used to confuse me as a kid with the Sherman. With the standard 75mm gun it was garbage against enemy tanks. WIth the 76mm gun it was far more competitive. I couldn't understand how 1mm could make a difference. It wasn't until I learned some physics that I understood why the 76mm gun was such a good anti tank weapon and the 75mm sucked.

Really????

I intellectually understood the difference between getting hit in the head by a volleyball and a baseball pretty early on. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm pretty sure most kids know, evne if subconsciously, that a faster object will hurt more than a slower one of similar size...

  • Boring 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,850
[WOLFG]
Members
27,107 posts
7,218 battles
2 hours ago, Blorgh2017 said:

Isn't U.S. the only country still using the imperial system? Or are there few other countries that also do? Even Great Britain ditched imperial for metric, didn't they? I wonder why U.S. still clings onto imperial...

Canada still does, at least in residential building trades.

If you show up at a jobsite with a metric tape, it'll get thrown in the hole with the footings lol.

And our speedometers all have mph on them, in smaller type. (that could be just to facilitate ease of use in the US though)

Edited by Skpstr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
6,278 battles
12 minutes ago, Guardian54 said:

Really????

I intellectually understood the difference between getting hit in the head by a volleyball and a baseball pretty early on. I don't mean to be rude, but I'm pretty sure most kids know, evne if subconsciously, that a faster object will hurt more than a slower one of similar size...

LOL In the books I was reading they didn't mention shell weight or the velocities of the shell. The ONLY information I had to go on was one shell was 76mm and the other was 75mm. It wasn't until I first read about how much heavier the 76mm shell was and how much more velocity it had that I understood. I was seven or eight at the time so hopefully that makes it a bit more understandable. 

This was also back in the days where the only way you got information was by checking out books from the public library. The internet was only a dream at that point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
242
[70]
Members
1,212 posts
6,662 battles
18 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

LOL In the books I was reading they didn't mention shell weight or the velocities of the shell. The ONLY information I had to go on was one shell was 76mm and the other was 75mm. It wasn't until I first read about how much heavier the 76mm shell was and how much more velocity it had that I understood. I was seven or eight at the time so hopefully that makes it a bit more understandable. 

This was also back in the days where the only way you got information was by checking out books from the public library. The internet was only a dream at that point.

Yeah, but I'd have thought someone reading such would automatically assume that the slightly larger shell was moving much faster. Like getting hit by a snowball moving slowly versus a marginally larger one moving faster... that's a better example for kids growing up where snowball fights were a real thing.

Edited by Guardian54

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×