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Halonut24

I think I understand why Graf Zeppelin is overpowered.

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So today I figured I'd man up and take Lexington into Randoms. Personal performance the first few games was okay. Nothing really special. Struggled a bit against more experienced Lex captains and a Shokaku, but he DC'ed midway thru. Most of the games were losses, mostly due to over-conservative team play. Then I ran into Graf Zeppelin. 

Oh God...

Probably one of my worst performances ever. Pretty much nothing done. There was literally nothing I could have done to salvage that game. I'm not exaggerating. Nothing. 2-0-3 will stomp 1-1-2 every time. NOW I understand why people said the Big E was the only Carrier in the game that could actually challenge Graf Zeppelin's air supremacy. I just felt so helpless... I felt awful afterwards. You can look for yourselves.

Spoiler

gz_vs_lex_personal.thumb.png.038f2afc8678782efb0bb1834930cdb4.pnggz_vs_lex_team.thumb.png.c08cbcbec52e5b621c86ef99d3eed20c.png

Something you should know about how I treat playing CV. I take it pretty seriously. I see it as a massive mantle of responsibility. I have the only CV on my team, and I my actions or inaction can cost my team a lot, much more so than a Battleship or Destroyer. I don't take that responsibility lightly. I want nothing more than to do everything I can to help my team, to not let them down. Which makes games like this devastating for me morally. It crushes me to know I was more of a detriment to my team than an asset, to know I didn't pull my weight. I feel like in those scenario's a lot of the blame for the loss is on me. I hate it.

Which makes me ask this one question: Why is Lexington the only Tier VIII with only one fighter squadron? Shokaku gets 2x5, at best. Enterprise can theoretically get 2x8. GZ gets 2x6. Lex gets 1x7, at best. Meaning every one of these other carriers has an edge in Air Superiority that a CV like me just doesn't have. It also really doesn't help that Graf Zeppelin's are never driven by normies. They are almost exclusively driven by top-tier CV captains. Pro's, if you will. Which makes me want to either: A) Get Lexington over with and get Essex with 2-1-2 ASAP, or B) Get Enterprise.

I also ask, if I run into another GZ, is there ANYTHING I can do? Does Lexington possess anything to actually contribute to the fight? Or am I just screwed? I am legitimately asking, because I am at a complete loss, and if I want to have any dreams of one day being a Midway captain, I need to get used to Random Battles and leave the Coop nest. Which means I'm liable to see much more of them before I get there.

Sorry for the long post. I just needed to put my grief somewhere where I might get something out of it.

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It almost seems WG is trying to get folks to do AA builds on CL's and play guards for CV's and other ships.  Which isn't a bad idea, but that Graf is a beast.

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My Shokaku is built around max fighter potential. That means max HP, DPS and ammo for my fighters. I once engaged 2 of my fighter squads into a dog fight with 1  GZ fighters squad.. I was told that GZ planes are not good as they are T7. Not only did 1 of my squads get wiped out, but the other ran out of ammo! It was then left with 3 fighters on its way back to my ship for rearming and wiped out by the GZ fighters on its way back!

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47 minutes ago, Halonut24 said:

They are almost exclusively driven by top-tier CV captains. Pro's, if you will. 

There's your answer.

When the ship gets re-released it will be driven by much more typical players. Currently, the only ones that have it are the experienced ones who've owned the ship for some time. 

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The problem with Graf (apart from its historical status, which is a whole other beast) is the fact that it takes so little skill to be able to dominate the battle.

  • Dive bombers that, unless you can completely destroy them before they drop their payload, will completely ignore any other type of defense and obliterate you
  • Torpedo bombers to complement said dive bombers (that's the least of GZ's problems, TBH)
  • 10-plane fighter squadron and a strafe that will annihilate everything in its path
  • A combination of hydroacoustic search, better secondaries than Bismarck, and turtleback armor that ensures that it can outright win some brawls with destroyers that would normally result in the carrier eating several torpedoes
47 minutes ago, Halonut24 said:

Which makes me ask this one question: Why is Lexington the only Tier VIII with only one fighter squadron? Shokaku gets 2x5, at best. Enterprise can theoretically get 2x8. GZ gets 2x6. Lex gets 1x7, at best. Meaning every one of these other carriers has an edge in Air Superiority that a CV like me just doesn't have.

Honestly, USN CVs from tier 6-8 have been in a complete state of disrepair for a long time now, and to a lesser extent, Essex and Midway. It angers me to no end how:

  • Saipan, a tier 7 CV, gets not only the same fighters as Midway but better torpedo bombers (while Essex is just left with Lexington's planes)
  • Midway, after finally rising to become competitive with Hakuryu, gets nerfed twice again almost instantly
  • Immediately after the above occurs, Hakuryu gets a buff, for whatever reason
  • While the above occurs, every USN CV tier 6-9 languishes in inferiority to their IJN counterparts
  • Graf Zeppelin, I'd dare say the WORST CV to have ever been designed during WW2, is not only broken as [edited] but also outclasses ships that have a FAR better historical record
54 minutes ago, Halonut24 said:

It also really doesn't help that Graf Zeppelin's are never driven by normies. They are almost exclusively driven by top-tier CV captains. Pro's, if you will.

I honestly think it's more about what carrier you're using to fight GZ with. A mediocre GZ player can go head-to-head with an above-average Shokaku or Lexington player, while a mediocre Enterprise player will beat a mediocre GZ player. I admit, I haven't had much problem with them, but maybe that's because I usually sail Enterprise at tier 8 these days.

57 minutes ago, Halonut24 said:

Which makes me want to either: A) Get Lexington over with and get Essex with 2-1-2 ASAP, or B) Get Enterprise.

Well, if you get Essex, you should be able to get a much greater to ability to control the air, but you will constantly lament your strike capabilities compared to Taiho's and you will lament the fact that your planes are tier 8 for the most part (seriously, I've watched Taiho fighters outrun strafing Essex fighters).

With Enterprise, you will basically win the air war against most CVs you face (barring 3-1-2 Shokakus, but the captains that pilot those will typically be noobs and pretty much always be utterly useless against your non-CV teammates), but your strike capabilities are mixed. Your torpedo drop pattern is...interesting...and your AP bombs are still situational as always. You also have tier 7 planes and not a lot of reserve bombers.

1 hour ago, Halonut24 said:

also ask, if I run into another GZ, is there ANYTHING I can do? Does Lexington possess anything to actually contribute to the fight? Or am I just screwed?

With USN CVs and their either outnumbered or inferior (tier-wise) planes, it is ill-advised that you play offensively with your fighters: defensive play is crucial. Either surprise them with a strafe, or dodge theirs and strafe from behind. In addition, it's preferable to engage with friendly AA support.

The trick to beating Graf Zeppelins (apart from denying them strikes when possible, but that applies to all CVs) is to take down their initial fighter squadron(s). 2-0-3 GZ only has 12 fighters in reserve (or one full replacement for its two fighter squadrons) while 1-2-1 GZ can only replace 6-7 members of its initial 10-plane fighter squadron. Once you have taken down their fighter squadrons, the bombers are easy pickings.

Lexington when played to its strengths—i.e. defensively—is a nightmare to attack through. Here is an example of what a good Lexington player can do against a CV that he's supposedly outclassed by:

image.thumb.png.89e411187f51de34555a6063

image.png.599bc76a62622ac80d9e3ff24590aa

(Here are my results from the same battle):

5b24bb270d2ab_ScreenShot2018-06-15at11_3

5b24bd83a8904_ScreenShot2018-06-15at11_3

While GZ and Enterprise are two different ships with different strengths, Lexington's tactics to counter them and Shokaku are similar.

1 hour ago, Halonut24 said:

Sorry for the long post. I just needed to put my grief somewhere where I might get something out of it.

I hear you, USN CV captains usually get the short end of the stick.

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@Avenge_December_7 thank you for the insight. I have to remind myself how much I still have to learn sometimes. This is a challenge I want to conquer. Step by step, I'll figure it out.

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4 minutes ago, Halonut24 said:

@Avenge_December_7 thank you for the insight. I have to remind myself how much I still have to learn sometimes. This is a challenge I want to conquer. Step by step, I'll figure it out.

Hey, take your time. You have the right attitude, unlike some carrier players that I've faced (like a Taiho that called Essex OP after I strafed all 12 of his torpedo bombers).

It took me more than a thousand games in carriers to become fairly confidant in my carrier gameplay, and even then (as you can see from the pictures I posted) there are still plenty of better players out there.

Relish every good game you have, every trick you learn, every well-mannered and competent opponent you face, and every salty potato you leave floundering in the ocean.

picgifs-upvotes-1306688.gif

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It really activates my almonds on how WG was so quick to nerf the Midway but then leave the Ranger, Lexington, and Essex to rot (again) until the CV rework. They had the resources to make the Hakuryu even stronger than before after losing the number one spot for like a month or two, but somehow they can't spare anything for carriers that have languished for years.

For the record, I think the Independence is okay vs the Ryuujou except there needs to be two changes: remove the AS loadout, and upgrade Independence max plane count to 43 planes (which her younger sisters could handle). If WG insists on keeping the "USN CV A-hulls have to have less than their full complement while the IJN CV A-hulls don't" nonsense around, then Indy A could get her current max of 37.

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3 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

It really activates my almonds on how WG was so quick to nerf the Midway but then leave the Ranger, Lexington, and Essex to rot (again) until the CV rework. They had the resources to make the Hakuryu even stronger than before after losing the number one spot for like a month or two, but somehow they can't spare anything for carriers that have languished for years

Preach.

4 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

For the record, I think the Independence is okay vs the Ryuujou except there needs to be two changes: remove the AS loadout, and upgrade Independence max plane count to 43 planes (which her younger sisters could handle). If WG insists on keeping the "USN CV A-hulls have to have less than their full complement while the IJN CV A-hulls don't" nonsense around, then Indy A could get her current max of 37.

I'd go a bit more and remove ALL AS loadouts. There is no need for allow such a potential disparity between IJN and USN fighter numbers, and it oftentimes comes down to the AS CV player sacrificing the match just to ruin the enemy CV's game (not to mention that most AS CV players are usually compensating for inferior CV skills)

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Or just don’t play carriers any more.

Suggestions on fixes have been ignored for nearly two years; until the decision was apparently reached to make things ‘simpler,’ with control changes that sacrifice everything everyone has learned up to this point on the vague altar of hoped for ‘greater accessibility.’

Which, at the moment, looks likely to turn all carriers into milquetoast garbage that couldn’t carry itself out of a wet paper sack.

Edited by Estimated_Prophet
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38 minutes ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

Honestly, USN CVs from tier 6-8 have been in a complete state of disrepair for a long time now, and to a lesser extent, Essex and Midway. It angers me to no end how:

  • Saipan, a tier 7 CV, gets not only the same fighters as Midway but better torpedo bombers (while Essex is just left with Lexington's planes)
  • Midway, after finally rising to become competitive with Hakuryu, gets nerfed twice again almost instantly
  • Immediately after the above occurs, Hakuryu gets a buff, for whatever reason
  • While the above occurs, every USN CV tier 6-9 languishes in inferiority to their IJN counterparts
  • Graf Zeppelin, I'd dare say the WORST CV to have ever been designed during WW2, is not only broken as [edited] but also outclasses ships that have a FAR better historical record

Just a couple things here. Independence, the tier 6 USN CV, is doing fine last I checked. 1,1,1 was the typical loadout being used before hand and they fave it slightly better DB's. It's fighters still stomp on IJN's, just comes down to aiming and a decent team. Unless suddenly Ryujo's are running AS. Only issue is they can see tier 7, which has been problematic since inception with how botched fighters have always been. Unless theres newer 2 week numbers that show it getting wrecked in more than just win rate.

Midway Nerfs - For starters, Midway never should have had the 2,2,2 setup returned, ever. It was as broken 2 years ago when they removed it as it is now. Wargaming only needed to do one thing, that USN players have asked for for years, especially after buffing AA so match to counter manual drop TB's and that plane type was supposed to be it's "thing" - buff the USN DB's. Dial the accuracy back in a bit, make it they aren't easily butchered by AA, and were good. That out of the way, the "fighter nerf" in all reality became more of a buff. Yes, IJN gained a slight increase in it's chance to down a USN plane. However, DFE, a skill routinely taken after it added an ammo buff regardless of tier and because of low tier USN fighters, Essex changes, and E, actually pretty much cancels out the DPS loss of the USN fighters, meaning they maintain basically the same shoot down chance they had before, but now have not only more ammo from DFE, but from the lower tier plane that had a higher ammo count anyway. And still maintains a significant advantage in chance to down an enemy fighter. HOWEVER, the second nerf, the hanger one, was truly idiotic especially that they initially wanted to do 40. Especially because the issue was mostly that Hak was running out of planes and a good deal of that is actually AA, not even fighters. The logical thing would have been to add about 21 aircraft to Hak's hanger - giving it the same reload ratio as Midway, as opposed to nerfing Midway to have the same ratio as Hak. The Hak change to flight groups, that really is more an issue with the broken nature of strafing that has needed addressing for years, with the new lock strategy screwing over everything that has few fighters, which usually means USN.

But yes, 7-9 USN tech tree has been made well inferior at this point.

But I have to disagree with GZ being the worst designed CV mostly because it was not designed like a traditional CV. GZ was designed to be part of commerce raiding, and between that and the waters she was intended to operate in, much like Lexington, Kaga, and other CV's, was designed with anti-ship guns to repel ships. They did, later in the process, realize and see how CV's were changing, and redesigned her without the 15 cm guns and instead, even more DP guns - however the ship was too far along and it would have been too costly to basically tear apart and rebuild half the ship. While most sources list her plane count as 40, this as it turns out was simply how many planes they were going to get (yay infighting) when she could in fact carry a number somewhere between that of an Essex or Midway class carrier, depending on what she carried in what states. However, what Wargaming has done shoehorning at best a tier 7 CV, with her 1938 vintage fighters and bombers that are at best tier 6 material (the armaments and all of the Bf-109E, the T is just a designation for a naval variant of the type, and the Ju-87c, are in line with the tier 6 A6M2 and D3A "Val" dive bombers), and her overall design and all. A tech tree ship with better planes and some upgrades -yes, that could have been T8, not the historical ship though. 

 

 

And I can break down the issues with GZ in numbers. Though, I'm not going to get crazy with all the modifiers here. 

Bf-109"T" - 61 DPS, 1580 HP, 5 per group (2,0,3) 8 per group (1,2,1)

F4U-1 - 63 DPS, 1700 HP,  6 per group

N1K5-A 70 DPS, 1660 HP, 4 per group

This gives the 109T a total DPS of 305 for the 2,0,3 and 488 for the 1,2,1, corsair 378, and N1K 280. But wait, GZ benefits from DFE, 10% more DPS against both of these. So that's 335 DPS for the 2,0,3 and 537 for the 1,2,1.

  • 2,0,3 vs F4U - 19.7% to down a plane per second
  • 2,0,3 vs N1K - 20.1% CPS
  • 1,2,1 vs F4U - 31.5% CPS
  • 1,2,1 vs N1K - 32.3% CPS
  • F4U vs 109 - 23.9% CPS
  • N1K vs 109 - 17.7% CPS
  • F4U vs N1K - 22.7% CPS
  • N1K vs F4U - 16.4% CPS.

As you can see, when it goes with the 203, it has a 4.2% lower chance to down a plane, which, these numbers get lower as planes are lost, and while RNG is always a factor, USN has the edge. However, it's not the same 6.2% disadvantage of the N1K. giving it better odds at survival as well as exploiting what Shokaku now uses against USN now that it's 2-1 with strafe mechanics as they are. And against Shokaku, it just straight up has all the same advantages USN has on it, on a slightly lower scale, save maybe ammo. Now, 1,2,1, against USN it has a 7.6% edge against the F4U, with aside from ammo, the same advantages of higher chance to down a plane and lower DPS loss that USN shares, except an even lower loss rate and even higher advantage. And Lex can't exploit multiple groups. Meanwhile, Shokaku can exploit the numbers advantage with strafe, but this is an even larger group than USN, and a much higher chance that even engaging for a second or two to set it up will cost planes. Let alone catching your fighter groups isolated. Their DPS with the number of planes they have is simply too high, same as USN has been forever and has caused this radical shift to the setups we all now know and hate, seeing as they did not simply wish to lower USN DPS slightly to maintain better fighter balance and allow something like 2,0,2 on Lex to stay.

 

Then, you get into the attack groups to which, the 1,2,1 is arguably the most Lethal the "cross" pattern can mean if the center torps are lined up right they are eating 6, or as many as 10, which in itself is already devastating (see Taiho, Kaga, Hak, and Midway), but one group of DB's with NINE planes. With a drop circle that tight, AP will nuke anything that it won't overpen, and some things it will, and if what I hear and see is true, that it was given HE bombs with basically the equivalent of IFHE - even the HE bombs decimate things (my Scharn at 20K+ HP after a torp attack from one was killed in a single shot by HE DB's from a GZ). It's more accurate than Saipan, with similar damage bombs, and DD's complained about what Saipan did to them with it's accuracy. ONE GZ bomb scoring a regular pen of the HE variety (as I believe the higher damage one is the HE) is 3700 damage. Now take 3 groups of 5 against a DD with that accuracy. Even if they only hit 2 per group, that's 22000 HP - they are likely toast. Well, how about a cruiser. Lets say 3 score hits per group after getting through AA - 33000 damage, if it's not dead - it'll certainly feel that. Hell, assuming AA knocks some down, even a BB will feel that. Oh, and let's not forget fires. Things like this is why USN DB's at one point had their accuracy (Over)nerfed. Because they were hitting a lot, hitting hard, and starting a ton of fires. Found an old Beta screenshot yesterday with my ranger having landed, with auto drop, 20 hits, starting 15 fires, destroying 3 ships. GZ has this kind of power, more actually, because it's still even more accurate than those USN DB's were when they were being called OP, namely by DD captains.

Run the 2,0,3, especially with AS - it's an old Lex AS setup with an extra DB group and way more accuracy. 

Run the 1,2,1 - you have a fighter group more powerful than a USN one, the cross drop of an IJN CV, really kinda close to Kaga, and a Saipan DB group with way more accuracy. 

It effectively has none of the flaws the other two possessed, namely poor fighters at best of IJN, and near useless DB's, or USN lacking TB's and having DB's that were decent but very inconsistent. Really all their strengths, none of the weaknesses.

It never should have been at this tier

It never should have been given 2 TB groups

It should have been given weaker bombs to account for being that much more accurate

It is everything wrong with CV's, in a single package that only those that had money in a 2 day span managed to get.

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1 hour ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

'd go a bit more and remove ALL AS loadouts. There is no need for allow such a potential disparity between IJN and USN fighter numbers, and it oftentimes comes down to the AS CV player sacrificing the match just to ruin the enemy CV's game (not to mention that most AS CV players are usually compensating for inferior CV skills)

No, they should just balance them. fix the damned fighters after, really 3-4 years so they are even but different. Make it AS is the 2,x,x on ships of both nation tier 7 and up, maybe 3,x,x on tier 10, and strike is 1,x,x (2,x,x on tier 10 if they go 3,x,x AS). Someone that opts strike should know to compensate and change tactics having a slight air superiority disadvantage. And you bring USN DB's to actually just being good, not even great, and keep IJN's new AS setups decent enough, you don't have the damage trade issue. There's a ton of other crap that needs to be done, fix strafe, AA, likely a damage nerf to sort out manual drop so we can fix AA, etc, but, lets assume all that gets fixed too. Give Lex DB's accuracy closer to Saipan's, and a solid improvement to survivability either in nerfing AA, upping their HP, or both, likely thrives on lighter cruisers/bigger DD's, but can stack fires on BB's and burn them down with attrition sorted so we can send groups at different times and more consistent hits. IJN with damage nerfed maybe keeps 2,2,2 as it's AS and isn't as good at DD or cruiser killing because of the now lower alpha per hit and well, having the planes that don't do as well against cruiser AA, but still excels most at less agile ships like BB's with just how many hits it can score plus the flooding's, and if they fix them well, DB's maybe start some fires. Otherwise, make it 2,1,3, maybe give IJN DB's a small buff to accuracy. And then have Lex be the current 1,1,2 for strike and Shokaku either 1,3,2 (remember, nerfed alpha) or 1,2,3 depending on what you use as he AS setup. Give USN DB's even HALF as good as GZ's and an AS Lex could match a 2,2,2 Shokaku. Even with as bad as they are now, especially when I get ships without super AA, and the rarer yet fool that is on the red team, not mine, that isolates himself, more of my damage is usually from the DB's, more specifically, the fires. Instead of continuing the nonsense Wargaming has done of not addressing the problems themselves, let's try, I don't know, addressing the problems themselves. Drop USN's fighter DPS by around 10 points, maybe up IJN's slightly, and give USN accurate, durable DB's, more durable than IJN's that currently are both faster AND tougher. Balance and used right, DB's are just as devastating as torps. And that solves your "USN fighters too strong, but lack punch" issue right there.

 

And as someone who primarily ran AS - I ran it because 9/10 times, my team scatters all over the place, not even trying to stick together to use AA support, and have to basically babysit 11 ships who all demand fighter cover spread all over the map. And only at tiers 7/8 and occasionally 9. 4-6 was 1,1,1 or strike, I didn't have Midway back before the change,other than way back in beta where yeah, no duh I used 2,2,2 because of the devastation it wrought. 9 was I think usually 2,1,1 or something like that. Didn't usually go for 3,0,2 cause I really only need 2 to cover spread out teams usually. That said, when I get the occasional green team, that doesn't make me play babysitter, sticking closer together so that even if my one fighter group is protecting 3 ships on the other end of the map they go nearly untouched cause of that crazy thing called"teamwork", not only do I not notice the difference, but the red team is the usual team I get not working together, I stomp on red ships like Mario on a John Wick esq revenge spree.

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3 hours ago, Flashtirade said:

It really activates my almonds on how WG was so quick to nerf the Midway but then leave the Ranger, Lexington, and Essex to rot (again) until the CV rework. They had the resources to make the Hakuryu even stronger than before after losing the number one spot for like a month or two, but somehow they can't spare anything for carriers that have languished for years.

For the record, I think the Independence is okay vs the Ryuujou except there needs to be two changes: remove the AS loadout, and upgrade Independence max plane count to 43 planes (which her younger sisters could handle). If WG insists on keeping the "USN CV A-hulls have to have less than their full complement while the IJN CV A-hulls don't" nonsense around, then Indy A could get her current max of 37.

The Independence at 30 plane stock/37 plane upgraded seem directly lifted from tier 5 incarnation. Apparently the Zuiho cannot go beyond 30 aircrafts so Independence had to go up and the Bogue introduced...then whoever is in charge hit their head on the server machine and forget that Ryujo has 48 planes...while the former tier 6 Saipan also had 48.

To answer the OP, Lex is just screwed all around and a clear victim of power creep and mistreatment in general. Takes real tenacity to keep treading the path.

 

Is it true that GZ can launch its planes in 5 sec?

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7 hours ago, Halonut24 said:

I also ask, if I run into another GZ, is there ANYTHING I can do? Does Lexington possess anything to actually contribute to the fight?

yes there is, plenty you can do. Example : Empty one of your DB sqaudrons and use it as scout/bait, save your fighter group for when and where you can make it count. Split your other 2 strike squadrons (tb&db) to be in a better position to exploit opportunities / gaps in enemy defences, to strike.

Remember your single fighter squadron is more than enough to deal with a single lone 5 plane GZ squadron, and you will force the GZ to split its fighters if it wants to prevent you scouting and hurting red ships. This way you should not need to confront both enemy fighters at the same time, or risk a strafe lock. 

(I almost never run 203, and even more rarely still, with AP bombs - preferring the options of 121, which of course is an easier match for a novice Lex driver.)

Btw, how do you feel about Lex 112 vs an air superiority Shok with its 3 (THREE!) fighter squadrons?

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6 hours ago, StoneRhino said:

I don't know, nearly 1/2 of your aircraft lost was to a DD.

Basically went after their anti-AA destroyer and the CV and was ineffective. I'm not surprised at all.

Seems... obvious to me here. You don't attack the positions of strength with a CV, lose your planes, and then wonder. 

OP, try watching some of Farazelleth's videos on youtube. His strategy and commentary will help your CV gameplay a lot.

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It always amuses me that Wargaming will take the most dominant carrier power in history and give them the worst carriers in the game. 

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2 hours ago, DarthZeppelin said:

yes there is, plenty you can do. Example : Empty one of your DB sqaudrons and use it as scout/bait, save your fighter group for when and where you can make it count. Split your other 2 strike squadrons (tb&db) to be in a better position to exploit opportunities / gaps in enemy defences, to strike.

Remember your single fighter squadron is more than enough to deal with a single lone 5 plane GZ squadron, and you will force the GZ to split its fighters if it wants to prevent you scouting and hurting red ships. This way you should not need to confront both enemy fighters at the same time, or risk a strafe lock. 

(I almost never run 203, and even more rarely still, with AP bombs - preferring the options of 121, which of course is an easier match for a novice Lex driver.)

Btw, how do you feel about Lex 112 vs an air superiority Shok with its 3 (THREE!) fighter squadrons?

Haven't run into Shokaku AS yet, but it sounds horrible. BUT, I have heard that no IJN CV captain worth their salt runs it, seeing as it really knocks it's strength's down a lot. From what I hear, IJN captains will almost always favor strike over AS. Not that AS against Ranger/Lexington is super difficult anyway.

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I was div up with the Kidd that match. The Kidd is AA spec . Twice that match I remember the Kidd saying "He's  dropping on a AA destroyer" laffing. He Holds fire and then lights  them up with DFAA. We run AA div all the time with CV but not that match he just brought the Kidd out and op targeted  a AA Kidd. There not many AA destroyers and when you run them it's so much fun against a CV. They don't know what to do when you have 2 AA destroyers and they can't spot caps LOL

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The only thing I would change with USN CVs is splitting up the 6-plane fighter squads into two 3-plane fighter squads. This would allow them to cover more area. USN Fighters are typically stronger than IJN Fighters so the 3-plane fighter squads would be a good fit. Otherwise, Graf Zepplin is a very hard hitting girl.

My first and second battles with Graf Zepplin. I only got lucky because her CO was a CV Sniper and I fought him both times.

 

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You made a stronger case to support Lexington being dogshit than GZ being overpowered. And Lexington is dogshit, just like Ranger.

The real OP CV at T8 is Enterprise. 96 plane hangar my [edited]. WG nerfs Midway for having 136, realizing that Hak's 100 can't keep up, but Lexington, Shoukaku and even GZ are expected to compete with 72. You literally lose by winning. You have to outstrafe at an impossible kill ratio to gain control.

Edited by awildseaking

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3 minutes ago, awildseaking said:

You made a stronger case to support Lexington being dogshit than GZ being overpowered. And Lexington is dogshit, just like Ranger.

Doesn’t help he was playing against an AA division.

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40 minutes ago, Usedcarjock said:

Doesn’t help he was playing against an AA division.

It does because he feed the kidd his planes. You don't beat an AA div by feeding them your planes.

Does it suck to run into an AA div sure but it is dishonest to feed them your planes then jump on the forum to complain that the red CV is op.

 

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Lexington doesn't hold up except against another Lexington.  Not with 1 fighter unit.

 

It's time to give her back her 2/1/1 spec (2 fighters).  You can't boss anyone around with 1 fighter unit at Tier VIII.  Shokaku, Enterprise, Graf Zeppelin would devour you.  This isn't Tier V anymore with Bogue having that 1 Mega Fighter Unit bossing Zuiho's planes around.

 

I'm trying to figure the thought process at WG when they decided to revamp Lexington into a 1 fighter CV at Tier VIII when you got Shokaku, Enterprise, and Graf Zeppelin the way they are.  It just boggles the mind.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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