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WhiteRecon

Haida vs All T7 DDs

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So I/we read Mouse's awesome write up on Haida.  She makes a strong case that Haida is a strong ship for anti-DD.  Is it in fact the strongest T7 DD, say vs the Z-39?

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I have both Gadja and Haida and gun damage against DDs is almost double in Gadja, being so similar guns I dont understand why...

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56 minutes ago, Patosentado said:

I have both Gadja and Haida and gun damage against DDs is almost double in Gadja, being so similar guns I dont understand why...

Really? I'm surprised to hear that, particularly since the HE shells used by Haida do more damage than those on the Gadja.

Mysteries abound - Haida is significantly stealthier than Gadja, which I don't really understand the logic for since the Tribal class ships (Haida) are larger than the N-class (Gadja)

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Haida has really poor firing arcs, which limits its potential DPM it can put out against DDs.

But if it can do that, then it can obliterate other DDs

If you don't play to Haida's game, then you can outplay it.

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1 hour ago, coletrain_commander said:

Really? I'm surprised to hear that, particularly since the HE shells used by Haida do more damage than those on the Gadja.

Its a trade off. The shells on Haida might do more damage raw, but she only has a 5% fire chance vs the Gadja with 8%. That might not sound like much, but according to LMW's math, the Gadja is the best firestarter at the tier, and Haida is 4th from the bottom.

That really sums her up. She chews up DDs easily, but struggles to deal with cruiser consumables, and has a hard time damaging BBs pretty much at all.

2 hours ago, WhiteRecon said:

 Is it in fact the strongest T7 DD, say vs the Z-39?

The Haida eats the Z-39 for breakfast. Really, the only thing the Z-39 has going for it in a DD on DD knife fight is her health pool and hydro. Haida has the best HE DPM at tier 7, and the Z-39 has the worst. And while the Z-39 might have a ridiculous hp pool, Haida has the third best.

I would say that Haida can beat any othe tier 7 DD one on one, (the Mahan would make her work for it tho) but the short range she has to do it at give her no tolerance for mistakes if there is more than just the red DD around.

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2 hours ago, Patosentado said:

I have both Gadja and Haida and gun damage against DDs is almost double in Gadja, being so similar guns I dont understand why...

Simple. Gadja's guns have HE shells 8% fire chance. Haida's HE ammo (same guns and turrets in both classes) has only 5% fire chance and slightly worse dispersion so you won't get as many hits. The secondaries (the twin 4-inch in X position) work better up close, with a higher fire chance than the main armament. The only thing I don't like about her torpedoes is that absymal reload time compared to everyone else at T7. Fun to play so far, but not an easy ship to master.

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1 hour ago, MrDeaf said:

Haida has really poor firing arcs, which limits its potential DPM it can put out against DDs.

But if it can do that, then it can obliterate other DDs

If you don't play to Haida's game, then you can outplay it.

I've definitely been obliterated by Haida -- it sees me so much earlier than I can see it.

Any tips for how to play against it in a USN DD or the Gadja?

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7 minutes ago, coletrain_commander said:

Any tips for how to play against it in a USN DD or the Gadja?

Ummmm... Have backup? Don't be in the same area as the Haida?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just can't think of a good counter strategy. Her great concealment means she gets the first strike most of the time, and her hydro means smoke is a liability against her. You can try rushing her mobile smoke to spot her, but that just means she gets free hits before you can reach her.

In conclusion, heck if I know. 

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1 hour ago, Baskerville77 said:

Ummmm... Have backup? Don't be in the same area as the Haida?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I just can't think of a good counter strategy. Her great concealment means she gets the first strike most of the time, and her hydro means smoke is a liability against her. You can try rushing her mobile smoke to spot her, but that just means she gets free hits before you can reach her.

In conclusion, heck if I know. 

Nice to know I'm not the only one who hasn't arrived at a good counter :)

The consensus seems to be that Haida is a challenging general use DD - but the darn thing is a nightmare for other DDs. Now back to getting obliterated in my search for effective counters

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Z-39's strengths lie with her torpedoes and huge hitpool, not her guns. Not that I mind the 150s, but there's only four of them and they have the Gaede reload, not the Z-23 one. Z-39 also has great concealment, although not as good as Haida's. Where Z-39 shines is her ability to be in the thick of things and soak up the kind of damage other DDs would run away from.

As for how to deal with Haida? Bait out it's smoke. It's no longer that absurb Perth cooldown, but at 80 seconds, it's still longer than other DDs. Afterwards, if you can find a way to keep it spotted (radar, planes, especially gutsy DDs), it should be noted that Haida's guns are incredibly inefficient at longer ranges. Haida HAS to get super close to be this huge threat.

Edited by KaptainKaybe
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Hmm, so the root of all this is me trying to justify buying yet another T7 DD, with an orphan Commander to boot - not there yet.

Having said that, my Z-39 has everything except ROF.  Insane hydro (Special Vigilance Capt, Hydro duration mod) and a Captain to share with P.E. and someday Roon. 

Granted, somehow the Haidas that I come across have had bad drivers (I really need to commit her hydro range/duration to memory).  But - I already have Sims [USS Powercrept], Leningrad, Blyskawica, Z39 mentioned and the IJN & USN DDs.

I can't buy this thing ... can I?

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15 minutes ago, WhiteRecon said:

I can't buy this thing ... can I?

Yes. Yes you can, lol. I also have all those DDs. I suspect I'm a virtual hoarder ;)

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On 7/2/2018 at 5:21 PM, MrDeaf said:

Haida has really poor firing arcs, which limits its potential DPM it can put out against DDs.

But if it can do that, then it can obliterate other DDs

If you don't play to Haida's game, then you can outplay it.

You can't outplay a Haida 1:1 in another T7 DD.  You can disengage and try again later, but a properly played Haida at similar HP when the knife fight starts, that has all consumables ready to use, will own other T7s DDs.  The Haida will see you first using lower detection, set up to kite away, let you approach Haida detection range, get 1-2 salvos landed before you return fire using better HE against DDs than you have, then the Haida can smoke to conceal, launch single salvo torps spread to distract you, pop hydro, get ahead of smoke to spot you again, get 1-2 salvos landed before you return fire, and repeat until you are dead.  

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32 minutes ago, nhf said:

You can't outplay a Haida 1:1 in another T7 DD.  You can disengage and try again later, but a properly played Haida at similar HP when the knife fight starts, that has all consumables ready to use, will own other T7s DDs.  The Haida will see you first using lower detection, set up to kite away, let you approach Haida detection range, get 1-2 salvos landed before you return fire using better HE against DDs than you have, then the Haida can smoke to conceal, launch single salvo torps spread to distract you, pop hydro, get ahead of smoke to spot you again, get 1-2 salvos landed before you return fire, and repeat until you are dead.  

Compelling points that I have a hard time forming an argument against.  Seems every T7 DD has a weak spot or two.  Blys may be a stong fighter, but I don't see a clear cut way to get past Haida hydro and continuous smoke - which again only leaves Z-39 which you guys say gets eaten alive by ROF.  

The only universal way is the same treatment we give DMs and all the radar scum - bait out/wait out the consumables and then outplay on even playing field.  But that by itself is an admission that you are fighting a superior ship.  Maybe Haida does beat all peers 1v1, but then we fall back on the realization that this is rarely a 1v1 game.  I'd rather have something fast with torps in an end-game scenario against heavier ships.  For instance Shima can dissect any T10 BB 1v1, and can really harass even a radar cruiser if points favor Shima.

Hmmm, I really want a crack at Haida's uniquely Canuck helm.

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I personally feel shes the best tier 7 DD. The biggest weakness is taking on larger ships, but with IFHE the cruiser become much less of an issue.

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I'm no Haida expert by any means, but I find CA/CL and BBs are best dealt with by torps and gunfire from smoke or behind cover. No smoke or cover?  Close to <5.7km and use guns/torps in a suicide dash. Works very well if done right. 

Edited by VeatherVitch

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15 hours ago, nhf said:

You can't outplay a Haida 1:1 in another T7 DD.  You can disengage and try again later, but a properly played Haida at similar HP when the knife fight starts, that has all consumables ready to use, will own other T7s DDs.  The Haida will see you first using lower detection, set up to kite away, let you approach Haida detection range, get 1-2 salvos landed before you return fire using better HE against DDs than you have, then the Haida can smoke to conceal, launch single salvo torps spread to distract you, pop hydro, get ahead of smoke to spot you again, get 1-2 salvos landed before you return fire, and repeat until you are dead.  

The detection range and main gun load out are really the only things that make it a pain to deal with, more so the better-than-most detection range than anything else. The fact that it can out-spot and get that first salvo matters more than the hydro or even the fact that is has a heavier salvo. A single Haida is extremely annoying but not an outright terror. A pair of haida or a haida and another gunboat starts to break into being scary territory.

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Haida and Blys are terrifying together... good 8km torps and lots of firepower. 

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3 hours ago, VeatherVitch said:

Haida and Blys are terrifying together... good 8km torps and lots of firepower. 

Maybe I should buy a second PC.  Go full fleet Commander.  Put my kids on the PCs and I sit in a big chair and yell. 

Edited by WhiteRecon
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So I/we read Mouse's awesome write up on Haida.  She makes a strong case that Haida is a strong ship for anti-DD.  Is it in fact the strongest T7 DD, say vs the Z-39?

Strongest anti-DD? Maybe. Stealth is great, but a Leningrad or Bkyskawica can probably win at actual DD fight ranges of 5-10km  (rather than the hypothetical "knife fights" that stay under 5km with ships apparently circling each other - that seem to exist only on the forums) as their accuracy means the practical (real world) damage is better at usual DD-v-DD combat ranges against agile targets. There other factors (such as Gadja's excellent turret arcs) and the Leningrad's low profile and speed tanking that are not obvious to those who only experience is in the wiki. The large HP pool and ability to get off the first volley is not to be sniffed at, however.


Strongest all-around T7 DD?

Gadja Mada and Leningrad are too busy laughing to respond to that comment.

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7 hours ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

(rather than the hypothetical "knife fights" that stay under 5km with ships apparently circling each other - that seem to exist only on the forums)

Lol, so true yet I have been captured by this point many times. 

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14 hours ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

Strongest anti-DD? Maybe. Stealth is great, but a Leningrad or Bkyskawica can probably win at actual DD fight ranges of 5-10km  (rather than the hypothetical "knife fights" that stay under 5km with ships apparently circling each other - that seem to exist only on the forums) as their accuracy means the practical (real world) damage is better at usual DD-v-DD combat ranges against agile targets. There other factors (such as Gadja's excellent turret arcs) and the Leningrad's low profile and speed tanking that are not obvious to those who only experience is in the wiki. The large HP pool and ability to get off the first volley is not to be sniffed at, however.


Strongest all-around T7 DD?

Gadja Mada and Leningrad are too busy laughing to respond to that comment.

I certainly agree that Gadjah Mada and Leningrad are much more versatile and so overall better DDs at T7. While it is debatable that Haida is the strongest anti-DD DD, I find that if you can kill or seriously damage one or two of the enemy's DDs in the opening 5 mins of the game (whether through your own firepower or through spotting them) you can create the conditions for your team to win in those opening minutes. It's not easy to play but it has so much potential in competitive. If ranked ever went back to T7 I can see it being very popular. 

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So, my Akatsuki is completely screwed if it goes up against a Haida one-on-one?   At least barring a lucky torp hit, which is tricky, but usually doable, given it has three triple launchers.

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3 hours ago, zubalkabir said:

So, my Akatsuki is completely screwed if it goes up against a Haida one-on-one?   At least barring a lucky torp hit, which is tricky, but usually doable, given it has three triple launchers.

Give it a try, Haida will pop sonar when he sees you of course.  I don't keep Akatsuki around.

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