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JessieTheKitty

The what if scenario? Of WWll

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I KNOW THIS IS COULD NEVER HAPPEN. THIS IS MERELY JUST A MADE UP UNIVERSE WHERE SOMEHOW IT DID OK?

 

what if both of the London naval treaty's and the Washington Naval treaty never existed?

now. yes i now this can never happen. but lets say for some odd reason these are never signed and their restrictions never occurred. some of the effects we could see from this are:

- Submarines no longer restricted to 2,000 tons

- Each nation allowed more than three 2,800 ton subs (France is allowed more than one)

- Submarine guns no longer restricted to 6.1" however very few submarines will be successful with larger guns due to leakage and weak platforms.

- Number of heavy and light cruisers are not limited for each nation

- Tonnage of light and heavy cruisers is not limited

- Destroyer tonnage is not limited

- Nations tonnage is not limited

- Capital ships tonnage not limited

- aircraft carriers tonnage not limited

FOR SIMPLICITY WE WILL GO BY THE CALL-SIGNS.

- DD'S cannot have bigger than 5.1" guns

- CL'S Cannot have bigger than 6.1" guns

- CA's are 7"+

-BB'S are 12"+

for CVE/CV/CVB/CVL i will be limiting it due to same displacement value just so midway doesn't go down as say a CVL....

 

 

 

 

now we can look at this two ways. 

A: HOW WOULD NATIONS USE THIS ADVANTAGE?

B: WHAT DESIGNS MAY WE SEE AS A RESULT?

 

we will be looking at question A first.

now still nations like Imperial Japanese Navy and Kreigsmarine are still going to have oil shortage and steel shortage for mass production however for say IJN we could see destroyers and cruisers immediately getting quite impressive with designs.

meanwhile nations that can afford these ships are now able to mass produce ships at a insane rate.

Now we will be looking at question B.

such as FUBUKI class which got a little screwed over with the destroyer tonnage limit. could we see better improvements on a ship that was known as best of its type in that era? could a 4x3 torpedo tube Fubuki arise?

or maybe even more impressive power plants in ships since tonnage is no longer limited. who knows. maybe these new Fubuki's could reach upwards of 40knts.

another prime example is the German U-BOATS. if they could have built slightly bigger say 3,ooo-4,ooo ton subs instead of 2,ooo ton subs how much difference would there be? faster? longer range? able to go deeper to avoid detection? would these larger subs be able to withstand the french and the British designs for more heavy guns on subs?

now for the USN could we see maybe the NC'S, South Dakota's, IOWA's never existing and rather they go down the OLD South Dakota route (the one that is like Montana) what would happen then? 

 

i would like you guys to respond with some interesting ideas of ship designs. however please keep them so they have the same style. like don't go saying Switzerland is going to make a Yamato. all i ask is to keep it reasonable! thank you.

 

also please don't spell check. i know there is many errors ok? 

Edited by JessieTheKitty
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well for America we'd have a lot more "Pacific only" ships.:fish_book:

 

think ships along the size of Montana and the rebuilt California and Tennessee.  They'd be restricted due to their beam width. 

 

however for the most part ships would be a lot bigger.  todays DDs are the size of traditional light cruisers.

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1 minute ago, BladedPheonix said:

well for America we'd have a lot more "Pacific only" ships.:fish_book:

 

think ships along the size of Montana and the rebuilt California and Tennessee.  They'd be restricted due to their beam width. 

 

however for the most part ships would be a lot bigger.  todays DDs are the size of traditional light cruisers.

yeh i fogot about panama cannal. however BB'S and CV'S will be the only ones affected. meanwhile we could see like a godly version of minotaur for RN 

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7 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

yeh i fogot about panama cannal. however BB'S and CV'S will be the only ones affected. meanwhile we could see like a godly version of minotaur for RN 

Well Germany would still probably have a weak navy. Though it would be interesting if one of the unbuilt UK BB Designs faced off against Bismark instead of Hood.:fish_book:

 

as for other nations

 

France would still probably be the same because they didn't have any  bigger designs when looking at historical records, nor did they really need them.

Japan would've built bigger ships anyways

Italy would be the same due to economy issues at the time

and lastly

UK would probably have kept a large number of their BB/BCs . most historians predict that the UK would've gone to war with the USA in the mid-20s in an Anglo-American war due to an arms-race as well as wanting to test their steel.

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5 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

Well Germany would still probably have a weak navy. Though it would be interesting if one of the unbuilt UK BB Designs faced off against Bismark instead of Hood.:fish_book:

 

as for other nations

 

France would still probably be the same because they didn't have any  bigger designs when looking at historical records, nor did they really need them.

Japan would've built bigger ships anyways

Italy would be the same due to economy issues at the time

and lastly

UK would probably have kept a large number of their BB/BCs . most historians predict that the UK would've gone to war with the USA in the mid-20s in an Anglo-American war due to an arms-race as well as wanting to test their steel.

germanys surface fleet wouldve been weak but i wouldve loved to see their sub fleet

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14 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

germanys surface fleet wouldve been weak but i wouldve loved to see their sub fleet

It would probably be the same. you have to remember you only changed the parameters for ships, you didn't say any nation had a boost in their production facilities!:fish_aqua:

 

BTW  if your into submarines here s video on 1 of my favorite designs!

 

 

there was also an anime that had a what if on this too though IDK what the series' name is. but it has some crazy awesome designs!

 

Hope you enjoy!:fish_aqua:This person's channel also has 4 other videos from the same series, you should check'em out!:cap_look:

 

 

Anyways,  the only way Germany would have a bigger overall navy, is if you had a "what if Germany won WW1" scenario.:fish_book:

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3 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

It would probably be the same. you have to remember you only changed the parameters for ships, you didn't say any nation had a boost in their production facilities!:fish_aqua:

 

BTW  if your into submarines here s video on 1 of my favorite designs!

 

 

there was also an anime that had a what if on this too though IDK what the series' name is. but it has some crazy awesome designs!

 

Hope you enjoy!:fish_aqua:This person's channel also has 3 other videos from the same series, you should check'em out!:cap_look:

 

 

Anyways,  the only way Germany would have a bigger overall navy, is if you had a "what if Germany won WW1" scenario.:fish_book:

yeh but i meant like. maybe if the made a class of super heavy subs that could go out of months with a larger battery etc etc. also edit: with the amount of ships not limited it could also make them maybe consider building more dockyards?

Edited by JessieTheKitty

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Just now, JessieTheKitty said:

yeh but i meant like. maybe if the made a class of super heavy subs that could go out of months with a larger battery etc etc

ah you mean like the Type IX and or XXI class?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_IX_submarine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine

yeah, I could see Germany making more IX or even an improved version on that model. but again these were made in 1937-44 and were upgraded during the war. It was also cheaper to upgrade current models than build bigger/new ones.

as for the XXI class however. the war would've had to have lasted another year for it to be effective, in my opinion. Though To be honest even with a submarine like this and the war lasting another year, Germany was in its knees in late 44, so I don't see this really being a possibility.:fish_book: 

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5 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

ah you mean like the Type IX and or XXI class?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_IX_submarine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_submarine

yeah, I could see Germany making more IX or even an improved version on that model. but again these were made in 1937-44 and were upgraded during the war. It was also cheaper to upgrade current models than build bigger/new ones.

as for the XXI class however. the war would've had to have lasted another year for it to be effective, in my opinion. Though To be honest even with a submarine like this and the war lasting another year, Germany was in its knees in late 44, so I don't see this really being a possibility.:fish_book: 

some of my ideas where maybe 3,000 ton sub that could go faster underwater due to heavily improved engine. also maybe RN wouldnt have super crappy CL'S CA'S. they could put more armor on them. a few more guns. make them equal to say takao or the cleveland classes

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13 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

some of my ideas where maybe 3,000 ton sub that could go faster underwater due to heavily improved engine. also maybe RN wouldnt have super crappy CL'S CA'S. they could put more armor on them. a few more guns. make them equal to say takao or the cleveland classes

during highschool I wrote a small "what if series" for creative writing assignments and had a number of German ships that were huge. the biggest one was the Roc, Roark, Roac? "its a giant mythological Eagle" which had 15x 25  inch duel purpose guns along with over 40 other cannons ranging from 15-3 inch guns, 200 AA guns, had 30 inch armor, was 927 ft long and weight in at whooping  90 tons! it could even house a submarine and carried 10 scout planes!:cap_wander_2:could you imagine facing a monster like this? 

 

my favorite was the Nu-Nassau which had 15x15 inch auto-loading twin cannons including a pair of wing turrets! she and her 3 sisters were painted pure white and a had purple markings to indicate scaring from past battles!:fish_aqua:

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would take 7 years just to get enough oil to run it for a hour -.- also that sounds scarry lol. if KMS had that in ww2 i think that could took on most of RN's bb's at once and win

edit: i could easily see it taking out Barham, QE, Warspite, Centurion, Iron Duke, Malaya, ramillies, revenge, hood, repulse, renown, royal oak, royal sovereign, valliant, rodney, nelson. would prob die if the kgv/s got into the action

Edited by JessieTheKitty

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1 hour ago, JessieTheKitty said:

- Submarines no longer restricted to 2,000 tons

Both Germany and Japan were lucky that subs were limited by tonnage as it forced them to build smaller subs with as much offensive firepower as they could hold. In reality, both nations suffered from the "Bigger is Better" syndrome as well as having a severe pipeline limitation on resources; I can see where both nations could have ended up with a few monster subs the size of a WW1 battleship, not unlike the Typhoon class the Soviets designed. This way they got a much larger number of boats which could, and did, do the job they were intended to do.

1 hour ago, JessieTheKitty said:

such as FUBUKI class which got a little screwed over with the destroyer tonnage limit. could we see better improvements on a ship that was known as best of its type in that era? could a 4x3 torpedo tube Fubuki arise

I could see IJN DDs getting a little longer and wider, probably limited to 4 dual 127 turrets, only powered with better rotation times. What I think more likely are ships carrying more torp tubes, probably on the order of Shimakaze's triple 5s, as the IJN was in love with torpedo warfare, and were also very good at it.

1 hour ago, JessieTheKitty said:

i would like you guys to respond with some interesting ideas of ship designs.

I could see both their CAs and BBs being MUCH larger, both nations were in love with bigger ships and had existing designs for them. Though I don't see the USN doing the same, at least until they found out about the IJN/KM designs, as budget more than anything else is what influenced the USN between wars. Britain might have gone toe to toe in a building war, or she might have stuck to her philosophy of more smaller ships make up for fewer larger ships, which is why she built mostly CLs over CAs.

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1 hour ago, JessieTheKitty said:

now for the USN could we see maybe the NC'S, South Dakota's, IOWA's never existing and rather they go down the OLD South Dakota route (the one that is like Montana) what would happen then? 

The Fast Battleships probably would've still existed in a different form, the NC and SD classes would probably just be larger or have less emphasis on size restrictions. Though the USS South Dakota would probably have a different name since the South Dakota class of 1920 would've been completed, as the reason for their cancellation was the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty. And the South Dakota (1920) class wasn't really like the Montana, but an up-scaled and up-armed Colorado class. The only similarity was that both have twelve 16" guns mounted in 4 turrets. 

But if the treaty was never made, them the U.S.N. may have started building one of the Tillman designs after the South Dakota (1920) class. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship

http://myplace.frontier.com/~wellsbrothers/Battleships/TillmanBB.html

Image result for tillman battleshipRelated image

The U.S.N. probably would've developed the Fast Battleships as we know them now but at the same time, wouldn't leave the heavily armored BB concept so we'd see monsters like the Tillman during WWII. 

 

Edited by Edselman
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3 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Both Germany and Japan were lucky that subs were limited by tonnage as it forced them to build smaller subs with as much offensive firepower as they could hold. In reality, both nations suffered from the "Bigger is Better" syndrome as well as having a severe pipeline limitation on resources; I can see where both nations could have ended up with a few monster subs the size of a WW1 battleship, not unlike the Typhoon class the Soviets designed. This way they got a much larger number of boats which could, and did, do the job they were intended to do.

I could see IJN DDs getting a little longer and wider, probably limited to 4 dual 127 turrets, only powered with better rotation times. What I think more likely are ships carrying more torp tubes, probably on the order of Shimakaze's triple 5s, as the IJN was in love with torpedo warfare, and were also very good at it.

I could see both their CAs and BBs being MUCH larger, both nations were in love with bigger ships and had existing designs for them. Though I don't see the USN doing the same, at least until they found out about the IJN/KM designs, as budget more than anything else is what influenced the USN between wars. Britain might have gone toe to toe in a building war, or she might have stuck to her philosophy of more smaller ships make up for fewer larger ships, which is why she built mostly CLs over CAs.

yeh i knew that IJN was in love with torpedos oh dear god kitakami........ i was kinda thinking of a wider Takao - Kitakami hybrid

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1 minute ago, Edselman said:

The Fast Battleships probably would've still existed in a different form, the NC and SD classes would probably just be larger or have less emphasis on size restrictions. Though the USS South Dakota would probably have a different name since the South Dakota class of 1920 would've been completed, as the reason for their cancellation was the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty. And the South Dakota (1920) class wasn't really like the Montana, but an up-scaled and up-armed Colorado class. The only similarity was that both have twelve 16" guns mounted in 4 turrets. 

But if the treaty was never made, them the U.S.N. may have started building one of the Tillman designs after the South Dakota (1920) class. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_battleship

http://myplace.frontier.com/~wellsbrothers/Battleships/TillmanBB.html

Image result for tillman battleshipRelated image

The U.S.N. probably would've developed the Fast Battleships as we know them now but at the same time, wouldn't leave the heavily armored BB concept so we'd see monsters like the Tillman during WWII. 

 

i would be down for tillmans LOL

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1 minute ago, JessieTheKitty said:

would take 7 years just to get enough oil to run it for a hour -.- also that sounds scarry lol. if KMS had that in ww2 i think that could took on most of RN's bb's at once and win

In my series I nicknamed the class "fleet killers" the Empire had 10 of these things and they used synthetic oil made from corn oil! (yes I know Europe doesn't normally have corn, but in this timeline they got a large amount from America as war reperations):fish_aqua:also it was to counter/fix Germany's oil shortage problem, given they don't have any natural oil reserves in the country. fun fact most of Germany's oil  (roughly 82%) was syntheticly made during WW2!:Smile_great:

 

Ironically though just like any other "Big" BB in history most of them were destroyed by air-power. 1 was even destroyed by an "baka bomb" hitting 1 of the forward turrets causing an ammo-rack detonation! the ships name? Justice.....:fish_palm:

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Just now, JessieTheKitty said:

yeh i knew that IJN was in love with torpedos oh dear god kitakami........ i was kinda thinking of a wider Takao - Kitakami hybrid

The IJN scrapped the Kitakami idea themselves as being impractical. I can DEFINITELY see them upgrading their CAs across the boards, following the KM idea of larger guns and larger hulls; very likely they would have ended up with Alaska style CAs with heavy torp armaments. Due to the US closing down their steel supply over the China invasion there would have been fewer of them, thus starting the war even earlier as they would have used up their steel supply earlier. They would have also, probably, NOT engineered their heavy ships for the Panama canal, choosing instead to go around India and Africa.

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7 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

i would be down for tillmans LOL

a lot of people are wanting them added as tier 9/10s for a second USN BB line. right now we could have the Pennsylvania  at tier 5, the Nevada at tier 6, the Tennessee at tier 7 and  South Dakota at tier 8.:fish_book:

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6 minutes ago, JessieTheKitty said:

i would be down for tillmans LOL

The USN rejected the Tillman designs many times.

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2 minutes ago, Umikami said:

The USN rejected the Tillman designs many times.

If my memory is correct, weren't they beaten by the orginal Montana design? the 20s one, not the 1942 design.:fish_book:

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4 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

In my series I nicknamed the class "fleet killers" the Empire had 10 of these things and they used synthetic oil made from corn oil! (yes I know Europe doesn't normally have corn, but in this timeline they got a large amount from America as war reperations):fish_aqua:also it was to counter/fix Germany's oil shortage problem, given they don't have any natural oil reserves in the country. fun fact most of Germany's oil  (roughly 82%) was syntheticly made during WW2!:Smile_great:

 

Ironically though just like any other "Big" BB in history most of them were destroyed by air-power. 1 was even destroyed by an "baka bomb" hitting 1 of the forward turrets causing an ammo-rack detonation! the ships name? Justice.....:fish_palm:

ah yeh. thoose things would be pretty bad for the 12,000 lb HC blockbuster bomb. those things would get NUKED by them

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1 minute ago, JessieTheKitty said:

ah yeh. thoose things would be pretty bad for the 12,000 lb HC blockbuster bomb. those things would get NUKED by them

yup. I got the idea from the Roma that was sunk by the fritz bomb!

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Umikami said:

The IJN scrapped the Kitakami idea themselves as being impractical. I can DEFINITELY see them upgrading their CAs across the boards, following the KM idea of larger guns and larger hulls; very likely they would have ended up with Alaska style CAs with heavy torp armaments. Due to the US closing down their steel supply over the China invasion there would have been fewer of them, thus starting the war even earlier as they would have used up their steel supply earlier. They would have also, probably, NOT engineered their heavy ships for the Panama canal, choosing instead to go around India and Africa.

i also wonder a lot if the embargo on japan never happened.... and the USA say had bad relations with china so they didnt care about that war

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Just now, BladedPheonix said:

yup. I got the idea from the Roma that was sunk by the fritz bomb!

 

 

OH YEH those things where SOOOOOOO high tech for the age. 

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2 minutes ago, BladedPheonix said:

If my memory is correct, weren't they beaten by the orginal Montana design? the 20s one, not the 1942 design.:fish_book:

No clue, honestly. I know when Tillman passed away in 1919 that was the end of the Tillman BB debate.

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