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Sabot_100

What ships NEED a 14pt captain to be effective?

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Most ships benefit from having a 14(+) pt captain. Some ships pretty much require it. Most DDs need a 10 pt captain to get CE. Akizuki needs a 14 to add IFHE. It makes a HUGE leap in performance. With the US CL line, it seems most of those NEED 14 also. There are various discussions on which to take first, but the consensus is that BOTH are needed.

Some ships just increase incrementally when that 2nd 4 point skill is added. Some may never add a second 4 pointer, just taking more lower skills.

What ships make a huge jump in performance when they get 14 pts? Going from bad to good ships.

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Bogatyr

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If Ship has less than 155mm caliber> IFHE
By extension, you thus also need 14pts because any ship armed with mainguns less than 155mm requires stealth. Wether you're Tier4/5 or all the way to Tier X, ships that don't pack 203mm guns need IFHE on any setup that is reliant on their guns for damage. 
Specific exclusions apply, namely to destroyers that are better off relying on fire chance over raw damage.

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Gun oriented Destroyers, especially Akizuki and the eventual arrival of her Tier IX-X cousins.  DDs, especially Gun DDs, have a lot of requirements.  CE, SE alone take it to 13pts and there are still other things that a DD will want.

 

CLs for IFHE & CE at the bare minimum.  Duca is a big example of a diva that demands a lot.  Even RU Cruisers where many are 152mm armed need this.  But some CLs will demand even more points if you want the ship to be max effective.  USN CLs lead the player into many different expensive routes, eventually.  Stealth, IFHE, AA, Consumables are all vital for max effectiveness of the High Tier USN CLs.  CAs have less of a need of this, because the big important reason that IFHE is unnecessary.

 

Battleships are also Capt Pt hungry ships.  Survival, AA, Secondary Builds are pricey, especially AA & Secondary Builds.  CE is still vastly useful on a BB, matter of fact, it's much more useful to a BB than it is on a Cruiser.  AA Builds needing AFT, BFT, possibly Manual AA if you REALLY hate CVs that much.  Regardless, AA is expensive.  Secondary Builds are just as expensive with varying combos of BFT, AFT, Manual Secondaries.  That right there is 11pts, and that's excluding skills like CE, FP, BOS, all of which are important ingredients to many BB builds.  Oh... Forgot the other very expensive Secondary Build variation... IFHE Secondaries.  Even a BB Survival Build demands 14pts at the bare minimum... FP & CE.

 

Carriers, especially High Tier Carriers, really need a lot of points, otherwise you are at a disadvantage.  This is especially true for Lexington and Midway that desperately need CE, because they have concealment ranges that let them get spotted from across the map like a Non-Stealth Build Yamato, GK.  On top of this, they still need Air Supremacy or be left at a disadvantage in the air also.

 

I know there's something of a fad right now where some people are whining that USN CLs demand a lot of points.  Well, too bad.  There's lots of ships that are like that already.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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14 points needed?  Every battleship i play.

PM

EM

BoS

AFT

MFSA

a true secondary build does not begin until you have 14 points :cap_rambo:

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Anshan

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Akizuki, and that's about it.

Destroyers can be serviced with 10 (CE) for a good while until at least Tier 8 except Akizuki.

Light cruisers are serviceable with just IFHE, though CE is very nice indeed to have.

Heavy cruisers are serviceable with just CE.

Battleships are serviceable with just Fire Prevention.

Carriers might as well not exist as far as I care.

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Secondary builds (German BBs namely, also Massachusetts), IFHE/concealment builds (all HE-firing light cruisers and a few DDs).

Edited by Cruiser_StLouis

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42 minutes ago, Hatework said:

a true secondary build does not begin until you have 14 points

But you still have a functioning BB before a full Secondary build. Not sure if that is really the quantum leap that adding IFHE is to CLs, Akizuki, etc.

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USN CLs are at the most effective with 14 point captains, in particular because you want CE and IFHE.  Ideally you want a 15 point captain on them, and I set them up with the following skills:

1. PT and EL

2. AR

3. DE

4. CE and IFHE

Adrenaline rush isn't an absolute need at the second tier, especially if you have turrets that traverse slowly and then you're better off getting Expert Marksmen.  Expert Loader isn't necessary but I've found it to be incredibly helpful, comes in handy when somebody unexpectedly presents broadside to you.  PT, DE, CE, and IFHE I consider to be must haves to be most effective with.  I've found that a lot of people that are complaining about the US CLs aren't using IFHE and it makes a big difference.

 

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14? Hell, Alsace isn't truly battle ready until 18 (she really needs Manual 2ndaries, AFT, and IFHE for the manly brawler build, and if you're not playing brawler Alsace I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but knife fights ain't one)

Edited by poeticmotion

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21 minutes ago, poeticmotion said:

14? Hell, Alsace isn't truly battle ready until 18 (she really needs Manual 2ndaries, AFT, and IFHE for the manly brawler build, and if you're not playing brawler Alsace I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but knife fights ain't one)

I play it with a 10 pt captain.  Secondaries are great for memes but a survivability/concealment build will net you better games and increase carry potential.

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3 hours ago, Sabot_100 said:

But you still have a functioning BB before a full Secondary build. Not sure if that is really the quantum leap that adding IFHE is to CLs, Akizuki, etc.

Basic function =/= Full effectiveness

 

Easy example, what's a Bismarck without AFT & Manual Secondaries?

 

What's a High Tier USN CL without CE & IFHE?  It loses out on a lot of capability when missing either, to the point of it adversely affecting play.  And that's just the very, very bare minimum.  What's Worcester without AFT on top of IFHE & CE?  She's like half a ship.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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6 hours ago, poeticmotion said:

14? Hell, Alsace isn't truly battle ready until 18 (she really needs Manual 2ndaries, AFT, and IFHE for the manly brawler build, and if you're not playing brawler Alsace I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but knife fights ain't one)

That's my Alsace build, not just a meme it really grinds nearby cruisers/DDs and anything low tier.  My Republique has a scrub at the helm.

Hard to believe my Cleveland Capt doesn't have IFHE yet...!  I'm sure I have the Elite XP ready by now - grinding too many Commanders right now.

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On 7/2/2018 at 8:08 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Basic function =/= Full effectiveness

 

Easy example, what's a Bismarck without AFT & Manual Secondaries?

 

What's a High Tier USN CL without CE & IFHE?  It loses out on a lot of capability when missing either, to the point of it adversely affecting play.  And that's just the very, very bare minimum.  What's Worcester without AFT on top of IFHE & CE?  She's like half a ship.

I see your point on Bismarck and on CE/IFHE, but I think you're way off on Worcester being half a ship without AFT. I see a CV in maybe 10% of my high-tier games, so I don't spec for AA. Worcester doesn't *need* AFT to be effective the way that Bismarck needs AFT/Man2nd or all USN CLs need CE/IFHE.

I'm only five games into Worcester ownership, but I'm not using AFT on her and I'm doing fine so far although I havent seen a CV yet (my build in order of acquisition is Priority Target, Last Stand, Superintendent, CE, IFHE, and Jack of All Trades with my currently 17-point captain, and with the leftover 3 points I'll probably do BFT but might do demo expert...I'm setting fires just fine even with IFHE though so leaning BFT.) To fit AFT into my build, I'd have to give up either Last Stand or Jack of All Trades, and give up taking a second 3-point skill. I'm not sure there's enough value in AFT to spend 4 points there just for better AA in lieu of giving up the opportunity to pick a second skill from both the 2-point and 3-point tiers. I'm not even sure there'd be enough value there even if CVs were a lot more common, but definitely not when I so seldomly see CVs.

23 hours ago, WhiteRecon said:

That's my Alsace build, not just a meme it really grinds nearby cruisers/DDs and anything low tier.  My Republique has a scrub at the helm.

Hard to believe my Cleveland Capt doesn't have IFHE yet...!  I'm sure I have the Elite XP ready by now - grinding too many Commanders right now.

The good news is Republique doesn't need IFHE for a viable secondaries build the way Alsace does. 

While IFHE does help the 152mm secondaries on both Republique and Alsace, Alsace has a mix of 152mm and 100mm secondaries, while Republique has a mix of 152mm and 127mm. And that makes a big difference in the value proposition and opportunity cost of taking IFHE as a third 4-point skill.

Alsace's 100mm secondaries need IFHE to be truly effective. Without that they're just firestarters. Adding IFHE to Alsace literally tripled my per-game secondary damage. I set fewer fires but I did tons more direct damage. While it should be taken after AFT and Manual2ndaries in my opinion, IFHE is needed to unlock Alsace's full potential.

For Republique, on the other hand, IFHE helps her 152mm secondaries but is useless for her 127mm secondaries. There's very little that she pens with her 127mm guns with IFHE that wouldn't get penned without IFHE, so IFHE reduces your fire chance while not effectively increasing your direct damage potential. I'd still be willing to consider IFHE just for her 152mm secondaries, but the opportunity cost is too high. For Alsace, it benefits all my secondaries and is worth it. For Republique, taking IFHE has a very minor benefit to DPS overall, and instead of spending 4 points on IFHE, I spent 3 on BFT and 2 on Expert Marksman (I carry Superintendent and Adrenaline Rush as my first capt skill on those levels for both Alsace and Republique.) 

For Alsace,  IFHE is worth giving up BFT and EM. For Republique, it's not. 

TL;DR: Alsace really needs an 18-point captain to make a secondary build viable; Republique is viable with a 14-point build although 17 is very nice to have for BFT. 

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When you see Worcester take the best of what a CV can throw, ANY CV, and sh*ts down a Carrier's throat game, or the CV cannot even dare to challenge the cap and DDs that Worcester is covering, you see why without AFT, Worcester is half a ship.

 

AFT realizes Worcester's full potential, her effectiveness.  You are half of what the ship could do without it.

 

What is an AA Cruiser without AFT?  It's not an AA Cruiser.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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The US light cruisers from tier 6 and up need at least a 14-point commander with IFHE and CE to be effective IMO; although, you can probably get by with a 10-point commander on the tier 6 Dallas and tier 7 Helena. 

But you definitely need IFHE to maximize the damage output from the 152 mm guns. Without IFHE, you are going to get a lot of shatters.

 

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