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Airglide2

An interesting observation with Nation releases (and some speculation)

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(Posted this on Reddit, was curious what NA forums thought)

As far back as I can remember, I’ve noticed when WOWS releases a nation it’s usually side by side with another nation.

In the beginning it was the nations of America and Japan. When those nations were done-

WOWS releases Germany and Russian Ships side by side releases. Now since WOWS didn’t release Russian BBs, it had British Cruisers released a little earlier. However the concept was the same and then we had the-

British and French nations released side by side. While there were splits in between these releases they were random at best in terms of nations I believe. Soon these two lines will be complete (outside carrier rework), but do you see a pattern here?

I bring this up because past these two Nations, I wonder who will rival who next? I am treating Russian BBs like splits because it’s the last line they’ll probably add (bar again carrier rework). We have heard through the forums and Reddit Italy may show up at the end of the year which leaves an empty space for its competition. Who do you think will show up next to compete against it?

This is a tough one, for me at least, because I am fighting preference over reality. I’d prefer if Italy competed against the Netherlands, but WOWS hasn’t released any Dutch related Premiums. However reality is they released a ship that belongs to a Pan-American line. So there is a chance Pan-American could be the next Nation line. It would seem strange though because like Pan-Asia, there hasn’t been a follow up Cruisers or Battleships tech tree.

That’s my theory anyway.

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13 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

(Posted this on Reddit, was curious what NA forums thought)

As far back as I can remember, I’ve noticed when WOWS releases a nation it’s usually side by side with another nation.

In the beginning it was the nations of America and Japan. When those nations were done-

WOWS releases Germany and Russian Ships side by side releases. Now since WOWS didn’t release Russian BBs, it had British Cruisers released a little earlier. However the concept was the same and then we had the-

British and French nations released side by side. While there were splits in between these releases they were random at best in terms of nations I believe. Soon these two lines will be complete (outside carrier rework), but do you see a pattern here?

I bring this up because past these two Nations, I wonder who will rival who next? I am treating Russian BBs like splits because it’s the last line they’ll probably add (bar again carrier rework). We have heard through the forums and Reddit Italy may show up at the end of the year which leaves an empty space for its competition. Who do you think will show up next to compete against it?

This is a tough one, for me at least, because I am fighting preference over reality. I’d prefer if Italy competed against the Netherlands, but WOWS hasn’t released any Dutch related Premiums. However reality is they released a ship that belongs to a Pan-American line. So there is a chance Pan-American could be the next Nation line. It would seem strange though because like Pan-Asia, there hasn’t been a follow up Cruisers or Battleships tech tree.

That’s my theory anyway.

Pan South American has already been stated i think.

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10 minutes ago, monpetitloup said:

Pan South American has already been stated i think.

This ^. You may see one or two of the ships in testing in Random play. I saw one yesterday, ARA Nueve de Julio:

And:

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Ships_of_Pan-America

Edited by ExploratorOne
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49 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

(Posted this on Reddit, was curious what NA forums thought)

As far back as I can remember, I’ve noticed when WOWS releases a nation it’s usually side by side with another nation.

In the beginning it was the nations of America and Japan. When those nations were done-

WOWS releases Germany and Russian Ships side by side releases. Now since WOWS didn’t release Russian BBs, it had British Cruisers released a little earlier. However the concept was the same and then we had the-

British and French nations released side by side. While there were splits in between these releases they were random at best in terms of nations I believe. Soon these two lines will be complete (outside carrier rework), but do you see a pattern here?

I bring this up because past these two Nations, I wonder who will rival who next? I am treating Russian BBs like splits because it’s the last line they’ll probably add (bar again carrier rework). We have heard through the forums and Reddit Italy may show up at the end of the year which leaves an empty space for its competition. Who do you think will show up next to compete against it?

This is a tough one, for me at least, because I am fighting preference over reality. I’d prefer if Italy competed against the Netherlands, but WOWS hasn’t released any Dutch related Premiums. However reality is they released a ship that belongs to a Pan-American line. So there is a chance Pan-American could be the next Nation line. It would seem strange though because like Pan-Asia, there hasn’t been a follow up Cruisers or Battleships tech tree.

That’s my theory anyway.

USN and IJN were released together because they had materials for full lines of each type, and used all 4 types the most and gave you two choices. The original slotting was RU, UK, Germany, but they had issues getting materials for UK ships so, slight change in order. Plus, I can already tell you the next line because it's openly being tested - UK DD's. As well as the last two ships of IJN's split branch of DD's. 

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20 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

USN and IJN were released together because they had materials for full lines of each type, and used all 4 types the most and gave you two choices. The original slotting was RU, UK, Germany, but they had issues getting materials for UK ships so, slight change in order. Plus, I can already tell you the next line because it's openly being tested - UK DD's. As well as the last two ships of IJN's split branch of DD's. 

Well that's great and all, but I was talking about Nation, not tech tree lines.

Edited by Airglide2

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1 hour ago, Gerbertz said:

Very interesting observation!

I'd also love to see the Dutch line released.

Where is @Lert, he should be interested in this for sure.

1 hour ago, WanderingGhost said:

USN and IJN were released together because they had materials for full lines of each type, and used all 4 types the most and gave you two choices.

No they didn't; one line didn't have BBs at the time of release and one line didn't have carriers, which were introduced after the original release if I remember correctly, in CBT.

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I don't think there's any 'rival' nations left to introduce side-by-side.

My feelings about a Dutch tree should be fairly well known by now.

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finally i can see the embryo pixels of minas geraes battleship.

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Given that Nueva de Julio is being tested for the Pan-South American line right now and that we've NOT been told it will be a premium it seems safe to assume Pan-South American CA will be the next full line after British DD./Japanese Gun Bote DD and that they will, seemingly, be released alongside and/or around the same time as Italian BB.

There is material for a British CV line is there. Maybe a French CV line. Maybe a Russian CV line. The Dutch can definitely get a DD line and a good bit of a CA line. There's some possibility for a Pan-Asian CA line. A Pan-European (Greece, Spain, Portugal, Austria) CA and DD, and probably BB line, could all be done. Pan-South American DD line is doable. Commonwealth CA and DD lines are doable. There MIGHT be enough for a Turkish DD and maybe CA line. Italians have enough for a DD line. There might be enough for a Polish DD line (don't know their navy that well). A Pan Central American/Caribbean (Mexico, Panama, Honduras, etc.) DD line could probably be a thing. A Pan African line of DD and maybe CA could be a thing.

Lots of choices.

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2 hours ago, Umikami said:

No they didn't; one line didn't have BBs at the time of release and one line didn't have carriers, which were introduced after the original release if I remember correctly, in CBT

In early Alpha there were no CV's. Later part of alpha CV's appeared for both nations. From that point in alpha testing, both nations had a cruiser, DD, BB, and CV line. However, the ships in those lines for various reasons, did change at times in either CBT or OBT (which is still pre-release of the game). And during those ship switches I do believer there temporary gaps, like when Saipan (originally a tech tree ship with tier 6 biplanes and tier 7 early monoplanes) was removed because well, mostly us history people having a coronary, reasons I still rant on about GZ, and was instead replaced with Ranger. Pretty sure at one point either an IJN BB was swapped out, two IJN BB's traded tiers, or both. And if I recall correctly the tier 10 CV for IJN was formerly Shiano (the Yamato class conversion). 

But USN and IJN were full tech trees by actual game release, I think they were locked down by OBT actually, and were the only nations with the ships to fill all four lines with absolutely no paper (UK is the second closest but would have likely used at least one paper CV, Malta, and well, they have paper BB's albeit why is a bit of a question) and the fact as I said, is really the prototype of modern naval warfare and actively used all 4 types in conflict with one another. UK as close as it was never really had it's CV's against aircraft except at times in the Pacific. But the general asses would only think to things like USN vs IJN at Midway, Pearl, Guadalcanal, etc. 

3 hours ago, Airglide2 said:

Well that's great and all, but I was talking about Nation, not tech tree lines.

Misread it because of bringing up the "Russia BB's as a split" bit.

However, much as there is a Brooklyn Class in development under it's later name when it was sold to I think Brazil, it's going to be the same questions as Pan-Asia as to if it's a line or not. Namely -

  1. What countries are included?
  2. Can it be done without any issues - answer should be yes after they came up with the flag options cause of the PA DD mess.
  3. Did said nations receive enough types of ships, or receive enough and then build their own, to fill out a line (or at least enough to sneak in a paper ship mostly unnoticed)
  4. What kind of resources is this going to take (Time, research, modeling, aside from areas they can cheat such as ships in game already that they basically copy/paste)
  5. The most important question - Demand. Is this a large section of the player base? A smaller one? How far up the priority list should it be?

For the most part, much as it would be mostly UK clones with changes, people have called for a Commonwealth tech tree in game to as of yet no avail, while PA got theirs. Haida pretty much had to be fought for, hell, even Enterprise took a fight after fighting and a ton of "why the hell is there no Yorktown" before the game even went live. Sure, a tech tree line long term is beneficial to any premium because it's value actually increases because now it can train crews for ships, isn't just a one off. But the question is, before they get to "were running out of lines and ideas so we'll toss in anything" - is there enough demand and interest from the player base to warrant adding P-SA as a nation over any of the outstanding potential lines, or other nations/nation groups?

 

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29 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

From that point in alpha testing, both nations had a cruiser, DD, BB, and CV line

Not the way I remember it, when I got into CBT both lines were incomplete. Check again. I do think you're right that both nations had complete lines when OBT went over to open gaming. Old screenshots would tell, in both cases.

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10 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Not the way I remember it, when I got into CBT both lines were incomplete. Check again. I do think you're right that both nations had complete lines when OBT went over to open gaming. Old screenshots would tell, in both cases.

Don't think I have any of the tech tree stuff (because we were under NDA's and took only what was needed for reports and the like) from Alpha, one of which shows a CV in battle during the alpha state (and me in the predecessor of the current T4 IJN BB) and the CV lines were full released at once. I also have photo's from closed Beta, with date stamps in may and June 2015, including one of a draw in my Ranger before DB's took a heavy accuracy nerf and all (20 bomb hits, 15 fires) over a month before the OBT was opened on July 2nd - https://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/common/obt-start/  - to which this article even mentions the 4 classes and full tech trees. I would post the pictures, however, as I was under an NDA at those times, while I know at least certain things were lifted, I will not post them, unless given a clear green light by WG that I can post those without getting in trouble.

But as I said, while the lines were released in full prior, it is entirely possible that when you entered CBT, was during one of the times that certain ships were being transitioned out, and therefore a temporary gap in the line was caused. Kind of like I forget which tech tree it was recently but on open test server before it was released, you could only play certain ships, not the full line, so there were gaps even though the full line went live at the same time. CBT there's still dome good swing left, albeit less than Alpha, OBT is usually just further refinement and near finished, why by that point, the tech tree was nailed down. It's not that your memory is wrong, there were for periods gaps as ships were transitioned and changed tiers, however, this was after full tech trees had been in place and ships were simply swapping tiers or being changed out with no place holder. You were simply unaware that the tech trees had in fact been complete, but were being altered still and therefore seemed incomplete.

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5 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

But as I said, while the lines were released in full prior, it is entirely possible that when you entered CBT, was during one of the times that certain ships were being transitioned out, and therefore a temporary gap in the line was caused.

I remember when an entire BB line was introduced in CBT, and also an entire CV line.

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5 hours ago, Airglide2 said:

I am treating Russian BBs like splits because it’s the last line they’ll probably add (bar again carrier rework).

RN and French DD

Italian DD, CL, CA, BB and CV

RN have enough CV for a full line

USN could and RN could split their BB lines esaily

RN could add CA

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5 minutes ago, Umikami said:

I remember when an entire BB line was introduced in CBT, and also an entire CV line.

I remember CV's hitting the Alpha test a bit before the second Beta Weekend I think it was (or 3rd) in which that last beta weekend CV's were available to all players. Then further alpha into CBT where changes were made to gameplay, ships, and the tech trees, before hitting OBT with the tech trees totally finalized and then release. 

That said, I have found one source (a wordpress for WoWsAsia) that in march shows Saipan at tier 6 with Independence the tier 5 (this makes sense, but I don't remember it, Essex as the T10 USN CV, and no USN BB's. And one with IJN lacking a CV tech tree  from a similar wordpress source. It could well be I remember wrong, and there was only one of each tree for those, however, it's also entirely possible that I was right in both an IJN and USN tree existing at those times, however, I may have forgotten there may have been a point those trees were completely removed for an overhaul, which would essentially make both of us right if that's the case.

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7 hours ago, Airglide2 said:

Who do you think will show up next to compete against it?

This is a tough one, for me at least, because I am fighting preference over reality. I’d prefer if Italy competed against the Netherlands, but WOWS hasn’t released any Dutch related Premiums. However reality is they released a ship that belongs to a Pan-American line. So there is a chance Pan-American could be the next Nation line. It would seem strange though because like Pan-Asia, there hasn’t been a follow up Cruisers or Battleships tech tree.

That’s my theory anyway.

At this point, looks like the Panamerican line will be the brand new "nation" in the game, starting right now with the premium cruiser Nueve de Julio.

2 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

However, much as there is a Brooklyn Class in development under it's later name when it was sold to I think Brazil Argentina, it's going to be the same questions as Pan-Asia as to if it's a line or not. Namely -

  1. What countries are included?
  2. Can it be done without any issues - answer should be yes after they came up with the flag options cause of the PA DD mess.
  3. Did said nations receive enough types of ships, or receive enough and then build their own, to fill out a line (or at least enough to sneak in a paper ship mostly unnoticed)
  4. What kind of resources is this going to take (Time, research, modeling, aside from areas they can cheat such as ships in game already that they basically copy/paste)
  5. The most important question - Demand. Is this a large section of the player base? A smaller one? How far up the priority list should it be?

For the most part, much as it would be mostly UK clones with changes, people have called for a Commonwealth tech tree in game to as of yet no avail, while PA got theirs. Haida pretty much had to be fought for, hell, even Enterprise took a fight after fighting and a ton of "why the hell is there no Yorktown" before the game even went live. Sure, a tech tree line long term is beneficial to any premium because it's value actually increases because now it can train crews for ships, isn't just a one off. But the question is, before they get to "were running out of lines and ideas so we'll toss in anything" - is there enough demand and interest from the player base to warrant adding P-SA as a nation over any of the outstanding potential lines, or other nations/nation groups?

 

First, Nueve de Julio is a Argentine ship, not a Brazilian one (but the Brazilians have the Tamandaré, Ex-St Louis), so, I fixed that for you.

Now, responding to your questions:

1-Mostly the A-B-C Powers: Argentina, Brazil and Chile, and it could be included México, Colombia, Venezuela, Perú, Paraguay at some point.

2-Well, of course yes, even more knowing they gave the option to the Nueve de Julio to change her flag to the Argentinian one or keep using the Panamerican one.

3-The listed countries have enough ships for a DD, CA/CL and BB lines (except at the last two tiers for the BBs), and it will lack at some point with CVs (they still could add a few premium ones).

4-Well, it will take a lot if WG try to bring the BB-CA/CL-DDs lines at same time, but, being a cruiser the first thing we see here, I think they will focus on the CA/CL line first, then the DDs and at the end the BBs, BUT, it does not mean they could not add one or two premiums BBs and DDs before the work start.

5-Oh dear, yes, of course yes, there is a BIG MARKET over there: the latinamerican player base in this server is huge, and they are mostly Argentines, Mexicans and Brazilians, soo there is enough people who will be happy to see their ships in the game.

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There is a large South American player base. Just because we don't pop over to the Brazilian area of the forums often, or at least I don't because I don't speak Brazilian Portuguese, doesn't mean that those players aren't there. They'll go bagonza over a P-SA line of CA and DD. Overall, other players will too because it's more content.

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3 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

For the most part, much as it would be mostly UK clones with changes, people have called for a Commonwealth tech tree in game to as of yet no avail, while PA got theirs. Haida pretty much had to be fought for, hell, even Enterprise took a fight after fighting and a ton of "why the hell is there no Yorktown" before the game even went live. Sure, a tech tree line long term is beneficial to any premium because it's value actually increases because now it can train crews for ships, isn't just a one off. But the question is, before they get to "were running out of lines and ideas so we'll toss in anything" - is there enough demand and interest from the player base to warrant adding P-SA as a nation over any of the outstanding potential lines, or other nations/nation groups?

To answer your question, I'm not picking the Netherlands in the name of "OMG I'm a fan!!!".  No, I'm picking them because of what's easy and what was real in history.  Outside the Big 6, what other nations could have their own tech trees?  The answer is shockingly "yeeesh".   Just about every nation after the Big 6 had mostly Destroyers, with as much as ONE Cruiser in their fleet.  Having done some homework, the only other nation that could work is the Netherlands.

When you said, "Demand", that reminds me of that Polish and Czech thing they're doing over at WOT, trying to create something that's not for the sake of popularity.  I don't approve of that, but it's not my game.  The Netherlands doesn't need demand, because they actually have more to work with than most of the navies at that time outside the Big 6.

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2 hours ago, slokill_1 said:

RN and French DD

Italian DD, CL, CA, BB and CV

RN have enough CV for a full line

USN could and RN could split their BB lines esaily

RN could add CA

I dont think Italy has enough for a full CV line.  Maybe Aquila as a premium, ala Graf Zep.

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7 minutes ago, CaptainKaitoGhost said:

I dont think Italy has enough for a full CV line.  Maybe Aquila as a premium, ala Graf Zep.

Bingo.

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1 hour ago, BrunoSchezer said:

First, Nueve de Julio is a Argentine ship, not a Brazilian one (but the Brazilians have the Tamandaré, Ex-St Louis), so, I fixed that for you

Yeah, I honestly couldn't remember off the top of my head and well, was too lazy to look it up at the moment cause even in the AC it's 80, Brazil was stuck in my head because of USS Philadelphia (same class, transferred to Brazil), and some of the CV's (colossus class).

As to the questions, look, I'm the guy who says they got them, add them. Need a couple of "logical progressions based on history" or as those that usually hate them call them, fakes, so be it. They tiered GZ wrong and it should have been a tech tree ship especially if they wanted to make it tier 8, but even without it I'm not backing down on an eventual German CV line so GZ has some real use, plus they have the materials sans maybe tier 10, which is easy to create based on their designs and the fact they had a lot of "bigger is better" and creative to say the least designs in other fields, and tier 4 that can actually be skipped over starting instead at tier 5, as Germany was in fact way further behind on CV's. The one's you, and the player base at large, need to try and convince is Wargaming.

46 minutes ago, Airglide2 said:

To answer your question, I'm not picking the Netherlands in the name of "OMG I'm a fan!!!".  No, I'm picking them because of what's easy and what was real in history.  Outside the Big 6, what other nations could have their own tech trees?  The answer is shockingly "yeeesh".   Just about every nation after the Big 6 had mostly Destroyers, with as much as ONE Cruiser in their fleet.  Having done some homework, the only other nation that could work is the Netherlands.

When you said, "Demand", that reminds me of that Polish and Czech thing they're doing over at WOT, trying to create something that's not for the sake of popularity.  I don't approve of that, but it's not my game.  The Netherlands doesn't need demand, because they actually have more to work with than most of the navies at that time outside the Big 6.

Truth be told, reason is irrelevant because everyone has one, it has enough ships and materials, I'm from that area, I'm a fan of the hips, whatever. The Polish and Czech thing, that's why I put in the line of "before they run out of ideas and will toss in anything". They've pretty much expended every "main" line they could do. Warships is even more finite than Tanks, least without basically making things up. Top of my head from what I know, and others have put forth - USN BB and CV second lines, possibly a second (or third) DD line, IJN has materials for at least a second CV line or a long split like DD's, UK has CV's, possibly 2 lines worth, DD's are imminent, not sure where it stands on BB designs as I know some were left out of the line. Germany has material for a CV line, France a DD and CV line, Italy as I hear has material for at least one of each. RU BB's and CV's are inevitable. 3-4 lines a year, than that maybe gives you 3-4 years before they run out of that material. Less when you consider CV's are off the board right now. And if this game is going to go as long or longer than tanks with more tech trees and not just adding premium ships, lord knows there's enough Fletcher class DD's you could keep spamming till 2030, it is going to need to go past that.

But demand now on P-SA, Netherlands, Commonwealth, etc, can make it like PA DD's where instead of a premium or two that is nothing but that till those 3-4 years pass and we get whatever they can add, they are added before everything I just listed there. Wargaming said "No new CV's till the rework" - But gave us E and Kaga, and tried to give us GZ and then just... thoroughly botched it 3 times in a row. Because despite in particular no plans at one point for GZ and E, suddenly changed their tune because of demand. For as much as full tech trees not needing paper or fakes helps, demand has a big part in prioritization. Seeing as a line that's wanted by more people, or a nation, can drive sales on premium time and dubloons for free xp conversion to try and speed through the line, sales of any premium ship tied to the line (as some may be hesitant on an otherwise "useless" premium if it has no tree to train for, bring players who maybe left back cause it may be a line that they wanted to see, etc. Which, makes it more worth it to put time, and money, into the investment. The main powers are the easy money. Especially because some of these nations used the same ships, meaning development cost is lower on adding them to the game so even if the demand isn't as high, they are still more profitable.

End of the day WG is still a business, Having materials and references, that's maybe 40% of why things are chosen, the other 60% is demand vs cost of production. If 40k people want Netherlands, and 25k want French DD's, they'd likely add Netherlands first. cause if they average a profit of 10 dollars per person, that's 400000 dollars vs 250000. 

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