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The problem with Haida (and Cossack)

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I've been playing Haida since yesterday. She is definitely a difficult ship to play, let alone master. It is true that she is good at uprooting dumb DDs that sit in smoke, or overextend. She can even pull off AP shots on broadside cruisers at suicide range and get away with it. Torps are fast and deal great damage, I don't have any complaints about those. In some ways she is similar to Asashio: a hyperspecialized ship. Haida, like Asashio, is very good at killing one type of ship, but is nearly useless against other types.

Haida's greatest issue is her health. If WG wants Haida's role to be a DD brawler, to pounce on DDs and kill them at close range, then she needs the stamina to do that. Quite often I found that as soon as I spotted a DD, I would be spotted in return, and a hail of gunfire would kill off half my health in the span of a few seconds. Haida's maneuverability (turn radius and acceleration) is poor, and thus it's difficult to evade well-aimed shots.

Once Haida loses half her HP, she is unable to continue in her role as DD hunter. Her low ROF means that she is at a disadvantage when she is low health and facing a fast or high-health DD. Using the creeping smoke prevents sight of the enemy DD, and conversely if you choose to attack without smoke, you will probably lose on the DPM race. So you have to choose between max defense or max attack; there is no middle ground unless the enemy DD is dumb enough to sail in your extremely short hydro range.

This is the problem with Haida. Once she takes a heavy blow, like a goose with a damaged wing, she is next to useless. Haida needs some form of extra survivability.

  1. More HP. Giving Haida more HP gives a larger buffer before she is neutralized. But, Haida already has a LOT of HP for a T7 DD, so I'm not sure how much more she would need.
  2. Limited heal. Giving Haida 1 (and only 1, not affected by SI or prem consumables) British heal to restore half her health would go a long way.
  3. Weak heal. Giving Haida a weak heal, say 20% for example, would improve her survivability. Haida is still vulnerable to being alpha striked, but she can continue in her role over the course of the battle.
  4. Improve Haida's maneuverability: better acceleration and turn radius.
  5. Improved concealment, so Haida doesn't get spotted on the approach to an enemy smoke. I'm not really a fan of this idea, but I'll mention it as a possibility.

EDIT: Whoops, forgot about Cossack! I have only played against Cossack, but superficially it seems like they play similarly. Cossack also suffers from the HP problem. I faced one while playing my Gangut, played by none other than LWM. Blapped her for 16k damage from full health, leaving her with almost no health and was finished by my div mate shortly after. If Cossack is like Haida, she will need some kind of survivability buff too. These Tribal-class destroyers have thick hulls that encourage shells to score full pen damage.

Edited by stardestroyer001

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I think Haida already has the best concealment of any DD at T6 or 7. I also didn't notice any of the things you speak while playing mine, I had no difficulty damaging any type of ship, nor did I take large amounts of damage quickly. I had no issues with speed or turns to evade fire. I use her smoke to make players think Im doing something I'm not, because I find her smoke style to be pretty useless for a DD. Her style of smoke is my one and only issue with the ship.

 

Any DD that takes a lot of damage has to be extra careful and is less prone to firing its guns, Haida is no different.

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I have had pretty good games with Haida against all the surface ships. You have to learn how to use the single fire torps effectively.

 

Also, the "Cossack" Mouse was driving was Haida, just under a different name for testing.

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I think it has a high skill floor and extremely high skill ceiling. This makes it tough for people to play but it can do extremely well. It really doesn’t need any buffs to be competitive. I would say the only buff I would like is something so you don’t need IFHE... but it doesn’t need it. You need to learn to abuse your concealment. You have an odd but great smoke and an amazingly long duration hydro. The alpha this thing puts out is ridiculous. If you’re having a hard time with DD’s stay undetected, drop speed to 1/4, smoke, fire, speed up to half, drop speed to 1/4, spot, fire, repeat. It’s fun to do. Essentially you outrun your smoke for a split second, get off a salvo, get back in smoke. If a DD hides in smoke, use your hydro and rush them. You shouldn’t ever hit a torp with it on and you have a nice stealth firing in smoke buffer. The secondary turret helps out a little too. I would love to see a like like the Haida, but it would be like the new IJN line... what can you do at tier 10 with a ship like that.

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im a newb dd player but i got the ship

i like it...all those things you mentionned haida is strong in those area

the one thing i aggree with you tho is her rudder shift and movement i dont find it nimble enuff to dodge shots

so if this ship would get buff it be that i guess

or maybe change the angle on the back turret cause i rarely get any shots in with it unless im running away

Edited by iamplaya

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36 minutes ago, Belyy_Klyk said:

I think it has a high skill floor and extremely high skill ceiling. This makes it tough for people to play but it can do extremely well. It really doesn’t need any buffs to be competitive. I would say the only buff I would like is something so you don’t need IFHE... but it doesn’t need it. You need to learn to abuse your concealment. You have an odd but great smoke and an amazingly long duration hydro. The alpha this thing puts out is ridiculous. If you’re having a hard time with DD’s stay undetected, drop speed to 1/4, smoke, fire, speed up to half, drop speed to 1/4, spot, fire, repeat. It’s fun to do. Essentially you outrun your smoke for a split second, get off a salvo, get back in smoke. If a DD hides in smoke, use your hydro and rush them. You shouldn’t ever hit a torp with it on and you have a nice stealth firing in smoke buffer. The secondary turret helps out a little too. I would love to see a like like the Haida, but it would be like the new IJN line... what can you do at tier 10 with a ship like that.

This is the kind of post I was hoping to get.

I only have a 10 point commander, I am getting close to 13 points but not close enough to 14. How necessary is IFHE?

Also, I'm not having an issue with the DDs, it's the cruisers and battleships that take out half my health when retreating or pushing a DD smoke. I can't mitigate these damages if I am expected to be an aggressive destroyer in the cap zone.

The torpedoes are great, by the way, I really like them.

Edited by stardestroyer001

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Played to her strengths Haida crushes it at T7, especially once you unlock CE.  The lower Concealment when properly used is invaluable.  Use premium consumables, and get the Smoke Generator enhancement.  Run the speed flag if you can, and use Propulsion mod.  You need Priority Target, and if you knife fight a DD once 2-3+ ships target you smoke to conceal, get out of smoke to spot as needed to reengage or flee.  Fire single torp salvos, or a single followed by the rest, and it’s a good idea to save a torp as a distraction in a knife fight.  Always run hydro in smoke unless you know where all torps ships are.  Stay near your support when possible, and fire from 10km or greater in smoke WHILE ANGLING AWAY, ideally on BBs which are easier to hit.  Haida is my current favorite T7 DD because it offers something very different in a DD and works very well when played right, especially when playing with team support.

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13 minutes ago, stardestroyer001 said:

This is the kind of post I was hoping to get.

I only have a 10 point commander, I am getting close to 13 points but not close enough to 14. How necessary is IFHE?

Also, I'm not having an issue with the DDs, it's the cruisers and battleships that take out half my health when retreating or pushing a DD smoke. I can't mitigate these damages if I am expected to be an aggressive destroyer in the cap zone.

The torpedoes are great, by the way, I really like them.

Well IFHE isn’t necessary, but it allows you to damage CA/BB’s more consistently. 25mm is the threshold you cross with IFHE. So right now you should have PT, LS, and CE. The other one is kinda whatever you choose. If you are too tier, all you have to look for is an Atlanta or Indianapolis. If you don’t see those, feel free to use and abuse ships because you’re in the clear to get to 5.7? 5.8? km of the reds. If you’re bottom tier, don’t rush caps at the start unless you’re going to bait radar. Be careful of radars. You can still outspot most DD’s and use the smoke+hydro. You really aren’t a great ship against CA/CL/BB’s but you can drop torps and maybe start some fires. If you see a broadside, feel free to try AP. It isn’t an easy ship to play but it can be loads of fun.  If you don’t have the smoke and hydro upgrades, save up coal for them. It’s a rough ship if there are radars since it loves to be up close and personal.

Summary: Watch for radar and avoid, abuse DD’s, set fires and try to torp other targets. 

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The main proble I detect in Haida is that its guns dont do a real damage.

I got 20hits for 6000dmg, same as in a Tier IV american DD.

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4 hours ago, Belyy_Klyk said:

Well IFHE isn’t necessary, but it allows you to damage CA/BB’s more consistently. 25mm is the threshold you cross with IFHE. So right now you should have PT, LS, and CE. The other one is kinda whatever you choose. If you are too tier, all you have to look for is an Atlanta or Indianapolis. If you don’t see those, feel free to use and abuse ships because you’re in the clear to get to 5.7? 5.8? km of the reds. If you’re bottom tier, don’t rush caps at the start unless you’re going to bait radar. Be careful of radars. You can still outspot most DD’s and use the smoke+hydro. You really aren’t a great ship against CA/CL/BB’s but you can drop torps and maybe start some fires. If you see a broadside, feel free to try AP. It isn’t an easy ship to play but it can be loads of fun.  If you don’t have the smoke and hydro upgrades, save up coal for them. It’s a rough ship if there are radars since it loves to be up close and personal.

Summary: Watch for radar and avoid, abuse DD’s, set fires and try to torp other targets. 

Thanks for the tips! I played more games and besides one game where my team was killed off right at the start, I managed to do pretty well.

It seems Haida has traits from all nations' destroyers. It can stealth torp and spot like an IJN DD, it can push aggressively on smoked up DDs like German DDs, it has the high arcs of USN DDs, the maneuverability of Blyskawica, the heavy damage HE shells of Russian DDs. Haida seems like it's composed of different nations' flavors and playstyles which pop up in different situations. Apparently I wasn't "listening" to the ship and tried to push when it was time to stealth, or vice versa. That explains the survivability bit, I was pushing or being too aggressive in the wrong situations. And Haida punishes mistakes pretty severely.

I decided to get BFT to quicken the reload times, but I may end up switching to IFHE so I can deal damage to CAs and BBs like you suggested. Like Akizuki, it struggles to deal damage to anything but destroyers and the superstructures of larger ships.

My only remaining concern is the maneuverability. Like Blyskawica, it handles clumsily, and a couple times I have been torpedoed despite having hydro on, simply because the poor ship can't accelerate fast enough to avoid torps. I have the prop mod installed, but I don't think it's that effective -- for the purposes of torpedo evasion, its most effective period is from full stop to ahead full, and Haida is usually at quarter speed. 

Also, the gimmicky smoke is nice but I feel like it's becoming more of a crutch in any situation other than: baiting enemy DDs into chasing you, or capping.

Edited by stardestroyer001
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16 minutes ago, stardestroyer001 said:

Thanks for the tips! I played more games and besides one game where my team was killed off right at the start, I managed to do pretty well.

It seems Haida has traits from all nations' destroyers. It can stealth torp and spot like an IJN DD, it can push aggressively on smoked up DDs like German DDs, it has the high arcs of USN DDs, the maneuverability of Blyskawica, the heavy damage HE shells of Russian DDs. Haida seems like it's composed of different nations' flavors and playstyles which pop up in different situations. Apparently I wasn't "listening" to the ship and tried to push when it was time to stealth, or vice versa. That explains the survivability bit, I was pushing or being too aggressive in the wrong situations. And Haida punishes mistakes pretty severely.

I decided to get BFT to quicken the reload times, but I may end up switching to IFHE so I can deal damage to CAs and BBs like you suggested. Like Akizuki, it struggles to deal damage to anything but destroyers and the superstructures of larger ships.

My only remaining concern is the maneuverability. Like Blyskawica, it handles clumsily, and a couple times I have been torpedoed despite having hydro on, simply because the poor ship can't accelerate fast enough to avoid torps. I have the prop mod installed, but I don't think it's that effective -- for the purposes of torpedo evasion, its most effective period is from full stop to ahead full, and Haida is usually at quarter speed. 

Also, the gimmicky smoke is nice but I feel like it's becoming more of a crutch in any situation other than: baiting enemy DDs into chasing you, or capping.

Smoke can be annoying at times. Especially since the break stealth point is somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2. I’m not a huge fan of it but it is nice if you have to avoid torps that you don’t have to leave your smoke behind. As far as maneuverability and torps, like other clumsy dd’s you have to recognize when you think a DD launches torps at you and preemptively angle toward them. Yes you give up your rest turret but you don’t habe to maneuver much to avoid them. Sometimes you can’t slip between torp spreads and you’re just out of luck. So is the life of a DD hunter.

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On 02/07/2018 at 6:02 PM, Patosentado said:

The main proble I detect in Haida is that its guns dont do a real damage.

I got 20hits for 6000dmg, same as in a Tier IV american DD.

20 hits should get you double that unless you're aiming at armor that shatters her shells. The shells have similar HE penetration as USN DDs, so it's a decent comparison. It's just the fact that she has six guns and 1900 damage per shell that gives her that great punch.

I don't typically advocate for IFHE on DDs, but in her case, it might be a good idea. IFHE means you can do consistent and reliable HE damage against all ships her tier or lower, while still damaging tier 8+ DDs and most cruisers. Obviously, superstructures on any ship can get you damage, but it will get saturated and there's never any guarantee those shells won't hit the deck instead.

Edited by KaptainKaybe
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I think IFHE is a good choice for skills since it boosts your pen from 20 to 26 millimeters. This allows you to pen everything on every DD you face except for Z39s front turret face. IFHE will also help penetrate the bow and stern of cruisers and battleships. I do recommend that people take concealment expert first since this will help you outspot most DD's you run into at your tier. 

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On 9/1/2018 at 3:28 AM, mcgibe said:

20 to 26 millimeters.

19mm to 25mm. 120mm shells will shatter against those thicknesses.

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15 hours ago, Noble_Taipan said:

19mm to 25mm. 120mm shells will shatter against those thicknesses.

HE penetration is calculated through the formula of taking the shell diameter and dividing it by 6. this is your penetration value. To improve this value you can take the IFHE skill which says it boosts your pen by 30%. Plugging the numbers in to this formula we come out with 20 MM of pen for shells without IFHE and 26 MM for shells with IFHE. Keep in mind that IFHE also lowers fire chance by 3% for main guns so you need to know what ships to use it on. (by the way IFHE also effects Haida's secondary and improves its pen from 17MM to 22MM)

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2 hours ago, mcgibe said:

HE penetration is calculated through the formula of taking the shell diameter and dividing it by 6. this is your penetration value.

That's not the penetration value, that value is the shatter threshold. 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Gunnery_%26_Armor_Penetration#High-Explosive_.28HE.29

Quote

HE penetration

Unlike AP shells, the penetration of HE shells does not depend on the impact angle or velocity---rather, each HE shell has a fixed penetration value which is compared to the raw thickness of the armor. This is computed using the following steps:

  1. Start with the shell diameter in mm.
  2. Multiply by a factor:
    • 1/4 for British battleships, German battleships (including 150 and 128 mm secondaries), German cruisers (tiers IV-X), and Japanese 100mm guns (Primaries and secondaries).
    • 1/6 for all other shells.
  3. Round to the nearest integer, with X.5 usually rounding down (contrary to common convention), though even this is not consistent. This is the shatter threshold, the minimum armor thickness in mm needed to shatter the shell.
  4. If the commander has the Inertia Fuse for HE Shells skill, multiply the original (stock) shatter threshold by 1.3. Do not round again.

120mm shells are capable of penetrating armour 19mm or less, but will shatter against anything 20mm or more. 

It's a fairly common misconception that the value is the maximum thickness of armour you can penetrate when it's actually the minimum thickness necessary for shells to shatter.

With regards to the Jutland and Daring's 114mm guns, if 1/6 of that number (19mm) was the penetration value then they would have no issues damage most DDs and BB superstructures at T8-10 without IFHE. Testers have been saying that because 19mm armour will cause 114mm shells to shatter, IFHE is a necessary skills for a commander for those two ships.

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My bad. I do see that is the shatter threshold now. Didn't read the fine print:Smile_facepalm:

Still though, IFHE is still a good skill to help with the already depressing pen of the guns

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There are 2 things I would wish for the Haida without affecting the way she plays and performs too much

-Being able to prematurely shut off her smoke generator

Informing everyone where you are and being unable to spot if you stop moving is troubling

-A buff to the secondary in the form of an accuracy increase and being able to prematurely rotate it to a target with a ctrl+click

It's wildly inaccurate at any distance greater than 2km and turns a bit too slow when starting a <4km knife fight

 

Edit: Emphasis and bolding on "would wish" as this is just to express my irritation and desires on some her aspects, not an outright demand for a buff as it may otherwise be misconstrued

Edited by Musouka

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Yeah, I do think the secondary should get a bit of a buff. It would be nice to kill DD's with it regularly for the lols. The secondary being a bit better would also give new players a hint that the ship is supposed to get up close and personal.

I don't find that the smoke continuosly going bothers me as much. Sometimes you may be fleeing and it transmits your position, but it doesn't last for very long and you should time your consumables and keep a close eye on them so you know when to disengage. The hydro does bother me a bit though as I like to sync it with my smoke when I contest a cap. The thing is that the hydro lasts twice as long as the smoke so when my second smoke is ready, the hydro has just gone on cooldown.

Still though, I do think the ship is pretty strong as it is right now because you ruin DD's that try to cap and rush you, you have a good healthpool for a DD (I have rushed battleships by themselves before and came out on top) and if you are still alive in the later part of the game, you are a huge influence as most of the BB's and radar cruisers are dead by then and as such you are able to pick off ships with the use of your consumables to get close. Also did I mention she can kill most DD's that contest her cap with ease

Anyway, These are just my thoughts

Edited by mcgibe

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33 minutes ago, mcgibe said:

I don't find that the smoke continuosly going bothers me as much. Sometimes you may be fleeing and it transmits your position, but it doesn't last for very long and you should time your consumables and keep a close eye on them so you know when to disengage. The hydro does bother me a bit though as I like to sync it with my smoke when I contest a cap. The thing is that the hydro lasts twice as long as the smoke so when my second smoke is ready, the hydro has just gone on cooldown.

"Using it to run?" that's beaver talk right there.

The issue is that it forces you to move or else she can't spot.

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2 minutes ago, Musouka said:

"Using it to run?" that's beaver talk right there.

The issue is that it forces you to move or else she can't spot.

I don't use my smoke to run away. Should have made that clear, sorry.

What I use the smoke for is for when I have contested a cap and an enemy DD is spotted. I start up my smoke and fire some shots, but I keep pushing towards where the DD was last. Then I use the hydro which is very useful for flushing out the DD and detecting his blind torps. Granted, the hydro values are pitiful but, 3.1km spotting range is something you can use to get the first shots in the other DD as he cannot see you until he gets to 2km. At this range you have 6 guns with the best HE dpm at tier 7, you can single fire your torps if worse comes to worse and you have hydro(not that I will help much at point blank).

What I was trying to say was that your smoke emmision won't last forever so when you have about 30-20 seconds left you should start to disengage and get out of spotting range

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1 hour ago, mcgibe said:

What I was trying to say was that your smoke emmision won't last forever so when you have about 30-20 seconds left you should start to disengage and get out of spotting range

...And this relates to wanting the ability turn off the smoke prematurely in what way? The issue is that the smoke is double edged when you don't want it active as it kills vision if she's not moving enough and it gives away her position.

This causes issues if you're moving on to a BB target because of the noticeable smoke cloud stalking them.

In a cap it forces you to mill about to get proper vision, while roosting her in a good position can't work because doing so will provide a stationary target and blind you.

Ideally you shouldn't even be smoking first. She outspots most enemy DDs by a fair bit so you should shadow them until they're forced to smoke up, then push onto them with hydro. There you use their smoke to block the enemy team's vision of you while you fire onto the blind DD, only using your own smoke if such a position doesn't exist or isn't feasible.

Edited by Musouka

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I don't think the Haida needs a single, minor buff, anywhere!

I use the smoke with the smoke Mod and superintendent. I pop the smoke constantly. The smoke makes her a complete menace to BBs and cruisers, and, combined with vigilance and hydro, it makes me impossible to torpedo. Stack on some fire chance flags, and man, you can RACK damage without taking much, if any in return.

As for whomever it was that said the guns don't do enough damage....are we playing the same ship??? This thing just tears other DDs to shreds. The smoke can be very useful in knife fights, too: get close, hit a few shots, slow down and hide for a second as you kite, and then pop out again to continue the attack. It keeps the red support ships from nailing you while you chase their DD out of the cap or send it to the bottom.

This is a very, very good ship that stacks well even against T9 ships.

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On ‎02‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 12:41 PM, stardestroyer001 said:

at a disadvantage when she is low health and facing a fast or high-health DD.

NEWS FLASH: So is every other DD in the game.

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@Musouka I just realized we are in the same clan. Lol

Also you do raise a good point about not instantly popping smoke. Sometimes it is good to pop smoke to start hammering down on a few cruisers or battleships. I try to get as close as I can to these guys without being in their radar or hydro range.

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