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So I have grinded (ground?) up to Yugumo and nearly unlocked Shimakaze, but honestly, I don't see any reason to continue with playing this line. It's just so pathetically outclassed by every other line in nearly every way. The torps have good damage, but now I see that it's just a gimmick. When 3-6 torpedoes land, there really won't be a difference between Yugumo's 20k damage per torp and Fletcher's...well 20k damage. Either way, it's a dev strike on anything. They are frankly mediocre compared to the other nations except for the Russians. Seriously, for a torpedo focused line and for having the best torps in the world historically, these torps are not usable. 1.7(8?) detection range is just not acceptable. On top of that, the guns are just woeful. And before some keyboard warrior waltzes in here and says "Oh, you have a 100-200 meter spotting advantage, which makes the line balanced.", I'm sorry, but only super unicums can put that detection to use. If an average player, i.e. me, is sailing at 37 knots in one direction, then a Fletcher pops up 200 meters away coming towards me, there is no way for me to avoid being spotted. I don't even have the speed to get away.

 

Anyway, the point is, I'm borderline about to sell my Yugumo and start on another line. I'm looking for anyone out there to try and convince me otherwise, or to help choose a new line.

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Shima has excellent conceal and useable speed, and their 20km torps are nice when used with torp acceleration (16km torps and reasonalble speed) that keeps you out of radar. 3 launchers means you can send heavy volleys of 10 and still have one 5 more fish to guarantee a flooding kill. Its a really specialized platform and not a cap contester, but different from any other DD. I like it

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Are you using RPF? Using RPF, together with the minimap and knowledge of the enemy team layout gives you a fairly good idea of your possible nearest enemy. 
There is no way I will leave the safety (around 6km of my nearest cruiser) of my team with IJN when I can get surprised by a gun/radar ship. I just stay near the friendly team to spot torpedoes or the gunship if he decides to get so close. Otherwise I will just wait till I know where the gunships are and move forward to spot others.

IJN is indeed a difficult line and looks more like a spotting and area denial line to me. Recently Shimakaze received a concealment buff, so it got even better at spotting. Not to forget that ships below Shima can mount the TRB consumable, which is also pretty great. And yea, a niche of the entire Japanese line is their slow turning guns, but this shouldn't matter when you are using RPF.

Spotting exp is not great imo. It is easier with a plane to rack up spotting damage than it is with a destroyer. Also when you spot something they start shooting anyway, so their goes your hassle of getting into the right position. 



So my advise is try RPF and don't sell your Yugumo either way. Regarding other lines, why not? It is always good to see how other lines are being played. This way you will gain more experience overall and get better in all ships. Since you are lofty about the Fletcher I would suggest to continue with the USN line. It is an easy DD to play and also one of the best.

 

Edited by LemonadeWarrior
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1 hour ago, Seraphil said:

Yugumo has pretty great guns tho?

Yugumo has pretty good guns for an IJN DD; which is like saying I have the coolest Yugo in town, because compared to everything else, the best IJN DD guns in the game are crap.

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I am somewhat biased towards IJN, as they are my primary line since beta.

I have found that IJN DDs work very well when one "fills the hole". Boost the area in which they are weak. Like closing the shield hole in EVE. I am assuming a high-point captain...

Turret traverse, BFT and AFT. Adrenaline Rush is a good one as well. Fix the guns and you will be happier. I have gunned down a wounded Des Moines in my Shima, while avoiding his return fire. He was rather upset. Lower-tier gunboats are no longer scary. They "know" you will try and run, and you no longer feel the need to do so.

Torp acceleration does wonders for Shimakaze. That gives 16km/67kt, 9.6km/72kt and the quantum torps at 6.4km/81kts. A patient captain that waits for radars to burn can use those to great effect.

Never charge in an IJN DD. I mean, I do it... but I die a lot.  Shallow, angled approaches at first. Ride that sliver of detect advantage. Use the mini-map to guess where the enemy DD detect circle will pop up by using yours as a guide. 

 You should not cap early in a contested cap while piloting an IJN DD. Unless you get a lucky blind torp into smoke, it gets too hairy too quickly. 

 IJN DDs make excellent flankers. Once into the red team's backfield, it is a cornucopia of spotting, and after a spread comes into them from behind them, you can tie them in knots chasing you. 

Akatsuki is best of the line all-around IMHO. Great ship for the MM. Karma faucet. A 19 point captain makes it into a swiss army knife.

Shimakaze is a silver-loser unless you are on premium and/or are better than I.  (easy to do) LOL  All the T10s are expensive to run though. Still fun though, especially for that first-win battle. My Akatsuki pays for my Shima habit.

The smoke that high-tier IJN DDs carry is best used for the battle line, not yourself. High-tier requires closer proximity to friendlies anyway. Smoke gets your team out from behind the rocks as well.

IJN requires a deft touch. You float at the edge of annihilation, but can lay waste to, and cause incredible confusion in, an entire flank with a good spread. 

Edited by BlueWaterWolf
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2 hours ago, Fastwolf66 said:

Shima has excellent conceal and useable speed, and their 20km torps are nice when used with torp acceleration (16km torps and reasonalble speed) that keeps you out of radar. 3 launchers means you can send heavy volleys of 10 and still have one 5 more fish to guarantee a flooding kill. Its a really specialized platform and not a cap contester, but different from any other DD. I like it

Too bad the 20km torps are spotted from the moon.  I still believe the 12km torps are a better option.

2 hours ago, Umikami said:

Yugumo has pretty good guns for an IJN DD; which is like saying I have the coolest Yugo in town, because compared to everything else, the best IJN DD guns in the game are crap.

I'll go as far to say Yugumo's guns are better than Shimakaze's.  But your point is valid.  If you want an IJN gunboat, play Akizuki.  She eats other DDs for breakfast.

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Also looks like the Akizuki side of the line is growing...  Stay tuned..

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I do not have torpedo acceleration because if I end up getting Shimakaze, I'll be skipping straight to the 12km torps. 9.8km torps are too short ranged for me. It means to torp anything, I am required to be within radar range. The 20km are spotted from more than 2km away, so they're useless. I do have RPF, so I generally know where the enemy destroyers are most of the time. I do have Shinonome, so credits aren't really a concern for me at the moment. As for the other lines, I like the idea of having devastating torpedoes that I launch  from stealth over 10km away, so I'm thinking of the Pan-Asian line.

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Yeah, I think for now, I'll sell Yugumo and grind the Pan-Asians. I have a premium ship anyway, so getting the credits to buy back Yugumo won't be a problem. Thanks for the advice guys.

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Yugumo is my favorite of the IJN DDs. Are you running the torpedo reload booster? Never run smoke on Yugumo. Staggering torpedoes with TRB to get permanent flooding is amazing. Also, Yugumo's torps hit for 5k more damage than Fletcher. If you don't think that's significant then I don't know what to tell you. Your flood chance is also nearly 100%. You can get within radar range, just do it with an island between you and the people who have radar. It is more of a grueling task, yeah. Thing is, it's bad for every DD. Ships like the USN's and Akizuki can't just smoke and spit HE, Germans can't sit in smoke with Hydro and be immune, etc. 

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I do run the Reload Booster with all the radar being thrown around now. As for Fletcher torps vs Yugumo's, Fletcher's do 19.5k(20k?) and Yugumo's do 23k. My point is that Fletcher will land them way more often because of their concealment. Not only that, but when you're both doing 20k damage per torpedo, 3k damage difference will not matter at all.

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44 minutes ago, CrapDuster said:

I do run the Reload Booster with all the radar being thrown around now. As for Fletcher torps vs Yugumo's, Fletcher's do 19.5k(20k?) and Yugumo's do 23k. My point is that Fletcher will land them way more often because of their concealment. Not only that, but when you're both doing 20k damage per torpedo, 3k damage difference will not matter at all.

And yet I land plenty of torps in Yugumo and have comparable damage and WR in both it and Fletcher. Fletcher torps are 19,033, Yugumo with Type 93 mod 3 are 23,766. So, 4,700 more damage per torp for the Yugumo, with a higher flood chance per torp. I mean, Fletcher is an AMAZING DD. Despite all the power creep still a contender for best all around DD, so I'm not going to say Yugumo is "better" than Fletcher. However, Yugumo, and the IJN line, do have their own particular flavor, and you can make it successful. Right now is not a great time to play ANY DD. Even Fletcher will have some struggles, because one of its big assets - delaying a push by harassing ships from smoke - is very hard to do safely right now. If you don't like the IJN flavor then hey, move on. Just don't try to tell us Yugumo sucks because this and that, because lots of us have made it work well and enjoy it. You don't have to if you don't enjoy it.

 

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2 minutes ago, tenfingerstentoes said:

And yet I land plenty of torps in Yugumo and have comparable damage and WR in both it and Fletcher. Fletcher torps are 19,033, Yugumo with Type 93 mod 3 are 23,766. So, 4,700 more damage per torp for the Yugumo, with a higher flood chance per torp. I mean, Fletcher is an AMAZING DD. Despite all the power creep still a contender for best all around DD, so I'm not going to say Yugumo is "better" than Fletcher. However, Yugumo, and the IJN line, do have their own particular flavor, and you can make it successful. Right now is not a great time to play ANY DD. Even Fletcher will have some struggles, because one of its big assets - delaying a push by harassing ships from smoke - is very hard to do safely right now. If you don't like the IJN flavor then hey, move on. Just don't try to tell us Yugumo sucks because this and that, because lots of us have made it work well and enjoy it. You don't have to if you don't enjoy it.

 

I never said it sucks. I can make it work, but the lack of consistency with the IJN destroyers bothers me. And even though it doesn't "suck", I can't think of a single situation where it's superior to Fletcher. Maybe its torp range gives it an edge over stuff like Z-46 and the Russian destroyers. Against other destroyers, it's a little worse than the Pan-Asians simply because it's guns, while good compared to the other IJN destroyers, are trash compared to literally everyone else. But the Pan-Asians can't torp you in return. But if WG is going to make the IJN torpedo boats, give them the outright BEST torpedoes since that's very obviously all they have going for them. 1.7 detection range is outrageous. Fletcher and Gearing have 1.4(?) . The Germans have 1.4 as well if I remember correctly. The Russians have even less than that and the Pan-Asians might as well not be detectable at all. So why does the only torpedo based line get the worst torpedoes? It makes them frustrating to play. Then WG releases Asashio, which I kind of see as a slap in the face to all the Kagero, Yugumo, and Shimakaze captains out there.

 

Basically, the IJN's advantage to disadvantage ratio is way too skewed towards disadvantage to make them enjoyable to play.

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3 minutes ago, CrapDuster said:

I never said it sucks. I can make it work, but the lack of consistency with the IJN destroyers bothers me. And even though it doesn't "suck", I can't think of a single situation where it's superior to Fletcher. Maybe its torp range gives it an edge over stuff like Z-46 and the Russian destroyers. Against other destroyers, it's a little worse than the Pan-Asians simply because it's guns, while good compared to the other IJN destroyers, are trash compared to literally everyone else. But the Pan-Asians can't torp you in return. But if WG is going to make the IJN torpedo boats, give them the outright BEST torpedoes since that's very obviously all they have going for them. 1.7 detection range is outrageous. Fletcher and Gearing have 1.4(?) . The Germans have 1.4 as well if I remember correctly. The Russians have even less than that and the Pan-Asians might as well not be detectable at all. So why does the only torpedo based line get the worst torpedoes? It makes them frustrating to play. Then WG releases Asashio, which I kind of see as a slap in the face to all the Kagero, Yugumo, and Shimakaze captains out there.

 

Basically, the IJN's advantage to disadvantage ratio is way too skewed towards disadvantage to make them enjoyable to play.

The IJN gun ballistics are far superior to the USN gun ballistics. If you kite away from a USN DD, and play a game of 7-9km peak in and out of island gunplay, you will wreck them. 

Also, the Yugumo torps are much better than Fletcher because of doing a lot more damage, having a higher flood percentage, and because of TRB. The power of landing a torp from an initial salvo, and then landing another salvo for a permanent flood is incredible. You will sink basically any ship in the game that way, regardless if you even hit only 1 from each salvo.

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1 minute ago, tenfingerstentoes said:

The IJN gun ballistics are far superior to the USN gun ballistics. If you kite away from a USN DD, and play a game of 7-9km peak in and out of island gunplay, you will wreck them. 

Also, the Yugumo torps are much better than Fletcher because of doing a lot more damage, having a higher flood percentage, and because of TRB. The power of landing a torp from an initial salvo, and then landing another salvo for a permanent flood is incredible. You will sink basically any ship in the game that way, regardless if you even hit only 1 from each salvo.

From my experience, the torpedo damage so far, while good, seems a bit...unnecessary for lack of a better word. As for kiting away from USN destroyers, while I may have 2 guns on the stern of the ship, they have two guns on the bow of their ship, so it's not as simple as pointing my ship in the other direction and fleeing. Also, since my stern will be facing them, my engine and steering gears will be knocked out once, then I'll have to repair, then they get knocked out again. And given how open Tier X maps are, running and ducking behind islands isn't always easy. Besides, it's not like my opponent is going to be incompetent and just let me run around harassing him. All they have to do is charge toward you while using an island for cover.

 

As for torpedo reload booster, most of the time, the enemy ship will dodge the first torpedo salvo, then they wont expect the second. I got a dev strike on a Yamato coming behind an island that way. However, Fletcher's chances of landing a torpedo on the first salvo are much higher, so it kind of offsets the torpedo reload booster's advantage in my eyes. And I'm not entirely sure that flooding is that big of an advantage. I mean, it's not like USN destroyers have a bad flooding chance. More often than not, a Gearing torpedo will cause flooding. If it hits the bow, the chance might as well be 100%. If it hits the torpedo bulge, I'd say there's a 60-70% chance. Not exactly low.  

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15 hours ago, CrapDuster said:

So I have grinded (ground?) up to Yugumo and nearly unlocked Shimakaze, but honestly, I don't see any reason to continue with playing this line. It's just so pathetically outclassed by every other line in nearly every way. The torps have good damage, but now I see that it's just a gimmick. When 3-6 torpedoes land, there really won't be a difference between Yugumo's 20k damage per torp and Fletcher's...well 20k damage. Either way, it's a dev strike on anything. They are frankly mediocre compared to the other nations except for the Russians. Seriously, for a torpedo focused line and for having the best torps in the world historically, these torps are not usable. 1.7(8?) detection range is just not acceptable. On top of that, the guns are just woeful. And before some keyboard warrior waltzes in here and says "Oh, you have a 100-200 meter spotting advantage, which makes the line balanced.", I'm sorry, but only super unicums can put that detection to use. If an average player, i.e. me, is sailing at 37 knots in one direction, then a Fletcher pops up 200 meters away coming towards me, there is no way for me to avoid being spotted. I don't even have the speed to get away.

 

Anyway, the point is, I'm borderline about to sell my Yugumo and start on another line. I'm looking for anyone out there to try and convince me otherwise, or to help choose a new line.

If you want better guns on IJN DDs you can always try Harekaze which I have heard is really good, with the 100mm guns or the IJN gunboat DD line.

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On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:07 PM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

If you want better guns on IJN DDs you can always try Harekaze which I have heard is really good, with the 100mm guns or the IJN gunboat DD line.

I don't spend money on this game, so I can't get Harekaze. Not because I don't want to, I certainly do, but just because I have other things to spend money on in my life. I just don't want to end up wasting money on this. If and when I have extra money, I will gladly buy a premium ship.

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25 minutes ago, CrapDuster said:

I don't spend money on this game, so I can't get Harekaze. Not because I don't want to, I certainly do, but just because I have other things to spend money on in my life. I just don't want to end up wasting money on this. If and when I have extra money, I will gladly buy a premium ship.

Yeah same with me.

As far as the IJN DDs I keep several of the main line IJN DDs on hand since Radar is still not stopping me since there is always a cool down time on the Radar or sometimes when they activate Radar it is already too late and the Radar ship dies within seconds. Second line of IJN DDs is good as well And Wargaming games is completing that line in the near future.

6027D892-171B-43C0-93E1-6C24649F884A.thumb.jpeg.32af9ecd893d79aa724ff1d4b379848a.jpeg

 

Edited by Admiral_Thrawn_1

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23 hours ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Yeah same with me.

As far as the IJN DDs I keep several of the main line IJN DDs on hand since Radar is still not stopping me since there is always a cool down time on the Radar or sometimes when they activate Radar it is already too late and the Radar ship dies within seconds. Second line of IJN DDs is good as well And Wargaming games is completing that line in the near future.

6027D892-171B-43C0-93E1-6C24649F884A.thumb.jpeg.32af9ecd893d79aa724ff1d4b379848a.jpeg

 

Yeah, Pain pretty much describes the experience.

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On 6/28/2018 at 1:50 AM, CrapDuster said:

So I have grinded (ground?) up to Yugumo and nearly unlocked Shimakaze, but honestly, I don't see any reason to continue with playing this line. It's just so pathetically outclassed by every other line in nearly every way. The torps have good damage, but now I see that it's just a gimmick. When 3-6 torpedoes land, there really won't be a difference between Yugumo's 20k damage per torp and Fletcher's...well 20k damage. Either way, it's a dev strike on anything. They are frankly mediocre compared to the other nations except for the Russians. Seriously, for a torpedo focused line and for having the best torps in the world historically, these torps are not usable. 1.7(8?) detection range is just not acceptable. On top of that, the guns are just woeful. And before some keyboard warrior waltzes in here and says "Oh, you have a 100-200 meter spotting advantage, which makes the line balanced.", I'm sorry, but only super unicums can put that detection to use. If an average player, i.e. me, is sailing at 37 knots in one direction, then a Fletcher pops up 200 meters away coming towards me, there is no way for me to avoid being spotted. I don't even have the speed to get away.

 

Anyway, the point is, I'm borderline about to sell my Yugumo and start on another line. I'm looking for anyone out there to try and convince me otherwise, or to help choose a new line.

First off, as to another line, I'd say USN first, then Germans. USN is overall more balanced.

IJN is without doubt the most difficult DD line to play. And yes, it's true, you can get into places and situations from which there is no escape. As they say, this line is feast-or-famine. So first off, I'd decide whether you want to continue on the feast-or-famine path, then decide whether you want to abandon the line or not. You can also play the USN and German lines as ninja torp boats if you like that style and want to stick with it.

Now...

Look at my badge. That's 100+ games in the top 3 in XP. One of those games was on the Atago. 4 were on the Harekaze. All of the others were Kagero and Yugumo. None were on Shimakaze. The last quarter of those 100 games was played in the radar meta, and yes, my progress slowed considerably with the USN CA/CL releases.  I am not unicum by any definition. I do not fear any T10 fight in either the Kagero or Yugumo. This line can fight, and this line can win. 

I think a better question to ask yourself at this point is this - do you need to finish the line right now? The answer is always no. Nothing is compelling you. Take your time, ignore the Shima if you want, and try to have fun without pressure. 

I'm not a big fan of the Shima. She seems, to me, the most situational of a highly situational line. I keep her around for ranked and Clan Wars. In both of those, with the right combo of allies, the Shima is a killer. She still has a place in my port, and always will. But the Kagero and Yugumo will always have a place in my port because they're both a whale of a lot of fun.

As to the guns on all three ships. You do them a disservice, to be honest. I gunned down a Z-52 in the Kagero a couple of weeks ago, and we both started out at about 70% health. Neither of us had allies nearby, so it was really one on one. You can even outgun a German in the right situations. I have outgunned Fletcher as well. (But I've never out shot a Gearing.) Yes, the ratio of me outshooting them is maybe 1:3 in single combat, but it happens, and when I lose they're way more chewed-up than they were when we started. And I can't even tell you how many times I've bagged a Khaba by letting fly the torps first, waiting till they're half way home, then opening fire with the guns. Khaba drivers always turn to attack thinking you weak, and almost never evade the torps. Just learn to lay the torps in the right place before you start shooting. Everyone thinks the IJN guns are weak - use that bias against them. They shoot slowly, yes, but they hit hard and they don't make rainbows when they fly.

Consider how you define "aggression", at least as far as this game goes. Bullying caps isn't your gig; you're a ninja 95% of the time, and a pest the other 5%. But you can be quite aggressive in IJN DDs - the aggression just plays differently. I run a tangent line on the zone first, or avoid it completely at the beginning. As soon as you trip the zone, some nitwit is going to hit radar. You can always go back and get the zone later. Spot the radar ships first, and call the targets for your team. Then get the zone when you can, or head out and fight somewhere else. And if you can get behind their lines and raid from the rear, you can hit 200k damage under the right circumstances (I actually had 165k damage in a single shot once by getting behind a bunch of island hugging CAs and BBs - it just worked out perfectly by the time the torps got there). You will have games with zero damage, or 2k, or 6k. But you can also break 200k at times, and over 100k becomes common enough with patience and practice.

And if you're expecting torp hit rates greater than 8%, you're not likely to get that anywhere else either. My hit rate is 8% across all the different lines. Historical IJN hit rate was 4%, so anything over 4% is pretty solid. I've seen some pretty terrible torpedo aim from DDs in the higher tiers.

Last thing: Don't give up unless it's just no fun anymore. I was just about to that point after the USN/radar thing hit. But it's coming back now, and I've learned a thing or two from others.

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On 6/28/2018 at 1:50 AM, CrapDuster said:

Seriously, for a torpedo focused line and for having the best torps in the world historically, these torps are not usable. 1.7(8?) detection range is just not acceptable.

The detection range is the detection range. Make up for that by avoiding the 62 knot torpedoes.

But describe your process for aiming your torps? Are you going for maximum impact upon arrival, or maximum chance of getting a hit? Are you accounting for the snapshot effect of the firing solution? Are you going for low percentage shots mainly, or high percentage shots, or a mixture of both?

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On 6/28/2018 at 1:50 AM, CrapDuster said:

So I have grinded (ground?) up to Yugumo and nearly unlocked Shimakaze, but honestly, I don't see any reason to continue with playing this line. It's just so pathetically outclassed by every other line in nearly every way. The torps have good damage, but now I see that it's just a gimmick. When 3-6 torpedoes land, there really won't be a difference between Yugumo's 20k damage per torp and Fletcher's...well 20k damage. Either way, it's a dev strike on anything. They are frankly mediocre compared to the other nations except for the Russians. Seriously, for a torpedo focused line and for having the best torps in the world historically, these torps are not usable. 1.7(8?) detection range is just not acceptable. On top of that, the guns are just woeful. And before some keyboard warrior waltzes in here and says "Oh, you have a 100-200 meter spotting advantage, which makes the line balanced.", I'm sorry, but only super unicums can put that detection to use. If an average player, i.e. me, is sailing at 37 knots in one direction, then a Fletcher pops up 200 meters away coming towards me, there is no way for me to avoid being spotted. I don't even have the speed to get away.

 

Anyway, the point is, I'm borderline about to sell my Yugumo and start on another line. I'm looking for anyone out there to try and convince me otherwise, or to help choose a new line.

Go slow. SHima is a big let-down. I wouldn't buy it . (as I did and sold it after a few games) . That 17 million can go a long way elsewhere. Kag and Yugo really good boats.

Edited by Strachwitz666

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On 6/28/2018 at 3:50 AM, CrapDuster said:

So I have grinded (ground?) up to Yugumo and nearly unlocked Shimakaze

...

Anyway, the point is, I'm borderline about to sell my Yugumo and start on another line. I'm looking for anyone out there to try and convince me otherwise, or to help choose a new line.

Just got my Shima 2 weeks ago, after wasting 10K free XP to get rid of Yumo...

What a mistake. You still have to grind another 30K for the 12Km torps an another 30K for the 8Km ones.

The ship feel like a step down from Yugumo. 

I have a 19 point captain with PM, AR. LS, SE, TAE, RPF & CE.

Reload time of the ONLY weapon you have (guns are useless unless you are against of an already dead enemy) takes 114.8 seconds (TWO MINUTES) to reload. so basically you just can fire 10 times in an average battle not considering your enemies must be stationary to hit them.

Your role is detecting the enemy trying not to be detected by them. Yueyang has only 300 mts (7,11 Shima, 7.42 Yue) worse detection. He has FAR BETTER guns. The moment he is detected, he just pulls his RADAR and you are dead.

Any other DD line is much more rewarding.

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On 6/28/2018 at 6:13 PM, CrapDuster said:

Basically, the IJN's advantage to disadvantage ratio is way too skewed towards disadvantage to make them enjoyable to play.

Never forget the russians lost to the japanese

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