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Duke of York Rebalans  

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  1. 1. Which version do you prefer?

    • Rebalans DoY as suggested
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    • I prefer DoY as is
      6
    • Can't decide.
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So on the launch kick with premium time and grinding for my Fiji, I've been swapping between Emerald/Leander and DoY on the downtime, and did research on it too. It can definitely be said, the ship is kind of a hotmess, though not to the degree of other premium ships. Rather, it has a case of strange identity. During testing it was tried as a no-heal battleship with DF and Hydro, but was changed. Aswell, she pays for her AA-suite and Hydro with increased reload from 25s to 29.5s and a slower rudder shift, and even has one heal less. This might not sound that big a deal, but with a ship that can be overmatched relatively easily and can't use all her artillery without showing total broadside, it's an important aspect. Oddly enough, neither Texas or Kii pay such heavy prices, and both of them represent incredible AA for the tier. Duke of York for whatever reason also received improved bounce angles on her AP, so the reasoning behind how she was designed after the original concept failed is beyond me. However, I have an idea for rebalancing the Duke of York and making more significant in her uniqueness, while still retaining some identity in common with other Royal Navy premiums. 
I bring the Belfast and Perth to the floor. Both are premium versions of their tech tree leadships, but they pay prices for certain advantages over them. Namely, these ships have access to HE, at the cost of the special RN AP that the TT versions have; Belfast also paying with her torpedoes (though she gains a consumable in return, like DoY). While they lost a special aspect given to the RN, they gained a far more utilitarian tool that is worth having. I would suggest the reverse for DoY however.....strip the ship of her Royal Navy HE. No 1/4-Pen rule. Bring her fire chance back in line with the other 14" guns (which ranges from around 25%-30%). Let her retain the special AP bounce angles over her sister KGV. In return for this aspect removal, grant the DoY her 25s reload, the extra heal charge and switch out the Hydro Acoustic Search with Defensive Fire to lean on her AA-Suite gimmick. 
Nothing else would really need to be changed.  With these changes, DoY loses out on HE performance and ruddershift to the KGV. What she gains is more effective AP artillery, Impressive AA suite, and gain the Defensive Fire consumable that makes Hood capable of protecting itself from carriers. 
Major downsides? DoY would no longer be capable of punching uptiers with her HE, and her AP would only serve highly on cruisers and broadside battleships. The Royal Navy HE is a major part of what permits the design to function. This would majorly impact her performance. 
Major upsides? DoY's effective, not theoretical AP DPM will be much higher as the bounce angle change appears to have significant effect in my experience. She'll gain superior self-defense capability, making her more survivable against carriers. This itself isn't an outright buff, as carriers are not that present of a threat. In itself, it functions as the gimmick for what it is. Sometimes worthwhile, sometimes not. 

Anticipated argument: Some people like having the Hydrosearch, which is indentical to Fiji's. I can understand this to a degree....but it doesn't particularly fit the ship either. Bismarck's is a self-defense tool that works into her brawling strengths that is a self-encompassing ball of secondaries, hydro, turtleback, and fast reloading 380mm guns. DoY has a glacial ruddershift on top of bad turret angles that makes her terrible at fighting anywhere near ships where it might be useful. People have mentioned using it to push smokes and while I have done this, it's frankly insane. it'll surprise some DDs, but many will simply dump on the DoY quickly and the ruddershift will stall you from dodging, even if the hydro spots it from launch. As a defense tool to push into swamped areas,  it functions for 1:30 and then you're free to be torped. No option for extended hydro either as far as I understand, but I could be wrong. It's of questionable use in my opinion, functioning mainly in questionable scenarios by way of questionable decisions. 
In this case, it can be made that one can choose and swap between Hydro and Defensive Fire on the same slot. Frankly though, it just makes the most sense to have a consumable that buffs your gimmick. 


So this is what it leads to. What would you prefer? 
A: DoY w/o RN HE shells, w/KGV reload, KGV Heal, DefensiveFire/Hydro consumable slot + AA-Suite (Don't forget the bounce angles)
B: The DoY we have right now. 

Posted in this specific forum section for discussion. It is not a suggestion, yet.
 

Edited by Seniorious
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1 hour ago, Seniorious said:

A: DoY w/o RN HE shells, w/KGV reload, KGV Heal, DefensiveFire/Hydro consumable slot + AA-Suite (Don't forget the bounce angles)

While I'm not too personally keen on giving DoY(or any battleship for that matter) DFAA, I do really like this idea. So it's pretty much an automatic yes from me.

Warspite has a certain charm compared to the RN BB line, since she doesn't share the silly HE the TT line has. To me, it makes Warspite feel like a proper BB and the others as a gimmick vehicle. I'd love to see DoY receive this same charm by dropping the silly gimmick HE and giving her good AP.

Edited by GhostSwordsman
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3 minutes ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

No. The HE is the only reason I even find it playable. Nothing is worth losing the HE.

Does HE make or break the KGV too though?

This is what I'm asking. The DoY would be taking that trade off to make the other aspects of the ship more comfortable. In particularly, it'd make the use AP more profitable as the DoY ALREADY HAS IMPROVED BOUNCE ANGLES. If you just try it for a while, specifically firing at cruisers, you'll notice the DoY can get penetrations at angles the KGV fails to. It makes the AP worth using, and with a 'unnerfed' reload time, it can actually BB well. The accuracy appears fine even with a 1.8 sigma, though that could potentially be adjusted too. As the AP is already weak compared to the 15" and 16" beasts of Tier 7, making the shells more accurate wouldn't be a far cry. 
As mentioned, it would give it a 'Warspite-esk' feel. You also gain basic invulnerability to 'sky cancer', from the bottom at Tier 5 to the Tier 9s, Duke of York would be capable of fly swatting. Even at higher tiers, 356mm AP with good bounce angles will still perform well against cruisers. With 326mm of penetration at 15km and a max range of 18.1km anyway, she has no issues with cruiser belt armor and will avoid overpenetrating most of the time too. 

As it is, the Duke of York is not a very popular ship. She has had bad press from conception to release, and retains to this day the 'nerfed KGV with a bad gimmick'. This is a test to see if altering aspects of the DoY will make it more functional in the eyes of the average player. 

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Prefer PoW with one-shot smoke consumable...

(See siggy...)

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14 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Prefer PoW with one-shot smoke consumable...

(See siggy...)

Fascinating, but a smoke consumable BB is....sigh I don't need to explain...….

I'd also like to draw a comparison. 
DoY AA at 2.0km - 189 DPS
Texas AA at 2.0km - 190dps
DoY midrange AA at 2.5km- 235 dps + 3.5km bofors with 31dps. 
Texas Midrange AA at 3.5km - 159dps. 
With maxed out AA builds, Texas can actually push out DPS from a higher range because AFT + AA mod is 20% +20% which means 159dps at 5km. 
DoY will reach that range with her bofors too, but only 31dps as mentioned. Her 134mm guns will push a bonus 65dps from better range, but that's still weaker at a combined 96dps at 5km. 
Her best midrange aura with 235dps will reach a max range of 3.6km. This means while her AA is stronger in that area, it actually doesn't have very much time to work on the planes. In a 'real world' situation, It's completely possible for Texas to OutSwat DoY simply by breaking down planes from a further distance. Once you add in the 20% bonuses, it still is mostly in the favor of Texas as it can start working hard on the planes sooner with 190dps from 5km, and then her AA at 2km is 228, just every so slightly beating DoY. 

Without Defensive Fire, Duke's AA actually isn't that strong because with 3.5km of reach for the majority of dps, a smart carrier can quickly drop in and get out without spending much time in the 3.5km zone. Texas however will be able to turn faster and kite away while firing away from 5km with all her DPS from 40mm Bofors. 
So Tier for Tier, Texas is actually a bit stronger in AA. 

Edited by Seniorious
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43 minutes ago, Seniorious said:

Fascinating, but a smoke consumable BB is....sigh I don't need to explain...….

Not for smoke shooting at all, (though I'm sure plenty of fools will try...) but to do what it was used for in the movie; breaking contact.

Far enough away, a puff or two of smoke could be enough to let PoW go dark until its gun bloom faded.

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I have both DoY and KGV, and I actually like both at tier VII. DoY having hydro means it is solid by itself against all other ship types. It isn't exceptional against anything, but it isn't weak either.

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7 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Not for smoke shooting at all, (though I'm sure plenty of fools will try...) but to do what it was used for in the movie; breaking contact.

Far enough away, a puff or two of smoke could be enough to let PoW go dark until its gun bloom faded.

Interesting, but again...what prices is PoW going to pay for such a gimmick as simple as "derp you get one free 'Whoops'", and up to three derps when you spec right. 
BBs smoking cover for other ships? I don't know.....
 

 

5 hours ago, Shannon_Lindsey said:

I have both DoY and KGV, and I actually like both at tier VII. DoY having hydro means it is solid by itself against all other ship types. It isn't exceptional against anything, but it isn't weak either.

Except that the Hydro is a limited capacity gimmick because it neither strong enough to detect from decent range relative to her concealment like a cruiser and provides just a limited window for advanced maneuvers against torpedoes. The only situations in which this consumable works is when you're pushing in through tight spaces around island waifus and around smoke, which is highly questionable. 
Outside of that, DoY has good AA and terrible reload compared to KGV and terrible ruddershift. Which, the latter further exasperates the questionable decisions mentioned earlier. 
By not being exceptional at anything and infact having significant prices paid for weak gimmicks, DoY rightfully earned the bad reputation among CCs. 

Besides this, my suggestion was as simple as this. 
RN HE delete>>>>Normalize heal, normalize reload, include Defensive Fire ( same slot as hydro). 

I mentioned that some liked hydro after all, so I offered a consumable choice. 
At conception, DoY had no heal but Hydro AND Defensive Fire; but during her big revamp after people complained about lack of heal, she lost DF. 
This right here is what DoY can do with Defensive Fire. Without it, her AA capability is limited. Without DF, Gneisenau can even challenge this capability when both ships are specced for AA, because Gneise has a 5.2km long range aura with 136dps. That would eventually become 7.5km range with 326dps assuming BFT/AFT/MAA+AA Module. That's right. The German T7 can have AA that not only puts out more DPS, but from a range that it can even cover her teammates too. 

 

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2 hours ago, Seniorious said:

Interesting, but again...what prices is PoW going to pay for such a gimmick as simple as "derp you get one free 'Whoops'", and up to three derps when you spec right. 
BBs smoking cover for other ships? I don't know....

Naughty little balanz... As it relates to what's being said about DoY, I can see where that could as bad as or worse...

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Duke of York if properly upgraded and with the right Captain skills is an awesome ship with the Hydro. Which if you want the Hydro Range buffed the Vigilance Captain skill does buff both the normal torp spotting range and the hydro spotting range. I also use premium Consumables includung the Hydro so I can use it more often, Damage Control more often, and heal HP more often as well as having the extra heal.

I have a great love for the Duke of York in game which it has earned, since with all the bad predictions and reviews on the ship I used it from very skeptical point of view. So the ship really had a lot to prove to me and as such certainly had to earn the approval I now give to the ship. I also like the historical value of owning Duke of York since the ship did have nice carreer in WWII.

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the Duke Of Garbage need buff, 

Reload to 25secs as your his sister KGV,   29,5 is exasperating in closed combat

fast rudder turn as KGV

1 Health more becuase he havent same recovery as nelson,

DUKE dont have Defensive Fire AA!

the AA duke no is good , beark very easy (and it  have shell armored AA) but break easy

he has 13mm armored deck= he can get citadel easy from bow.

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On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 2:46 AM, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

 Which if you want the Hydro Range buffed the Vigilance Captain skill does buff both the normal torp spotting range and the hydro spotting range. 

Vigilance does make torpedo spotting easier...but that's about it. That's all the hydro amounts to in the first place. The ship isn't very conducive to pushing smokes due to awkward turret setup and terrible angles on the rear turret combined with slow rudder shift.
Now, I do enjoy the Duke of York quite a lot. More so than the KGV infact, and dominantly so because of the fact that DoY can actually use her AP to great effect whereas KGV just bounces and shatters all the time. My issue is, for what few things she has over KGV, she pays too heavily in reload and rudder shift and while she was tested with Hydro and DFAA while having boosted AA as part of the gimmick, they only kept the Hydro, instead of keeping only DFAA or giving us the choice of switching between one or the other like most ships. 
Largely my suggestion comes down to rebalancing the DoY by making her pay with removal of Royal Navy BB HE so that the rest of her stats like Reload and rudder shift and 1 heal less don't have to pay. Even without the RN version HE, with 10 decently accurate guns that reload in 25s, she can still do some flamethrowing. Not nearly as easily, but would still be able to. 

A massive complaint with Battleships ongoing right now is that they generally never have to switch from AP because it's always the best ammunition against BB, CV, CA, CL, and DD because random fuses result in massive damage and even a bunch of overpens rip off half the HP or more. The Royal Navy just makes this worse because now they have HE which easily damages all of the above types, but with more effect on DDs and now can start fires like mad and break everything on a ship. I've tried and tried to make AP workable as a general use shell on KGV, but it just fails. You have to use HE, and then only AP as a rare occurrence when the time is right. 

The extra AA, AP bounce angles and hydro make the DoY a little more comfortable in some areas, but I feel it just loses too much in others.

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I like my DoY HE. For any mission/op that requires destroying modules, she's a beast. And, at T7 at least as often as not, she will be top tier.

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Well, I suppose we could say that DoY is WG's way of saying "Screw you, whiny players. Here's your beloved Repair Party." I mean, if we go back and read Miss Maus' DoY review, it was pretty clear that she was originally supposed to be something else... but WG got tired of all the noises and decided to make her just like every other battleship... except with a BIG caveat, of course.

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On 6/27/2018 at 10:32 PM, GhostSwordsman said:

While I'm not too personally keen on giving DoY(or any battleship for that matter) DFAA, I do really like this idea. So it's pretty much an automatic yes from me.

Warspite has a certain charm compared to the RN BB line, since she doesn't share the silly HE the TT line has. To me, it makes Warspite feel like a proper BB and the others as a gimmick vehicle. I'd love to see DoY receive this same charm by dropping the silly gimmick HE and giving her good AP.

Thats what I want'ed for the RN BB's.. Warspite like. 

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10 hours ago, Neighbor_Kid said:

Thats what I want'ed for the RN BB's.. Warspite like. 

It's what we all wanted.....but muh HE flavor. 
So far the poll is 8/6 in favor of new DoY. 
While it's highly unlikely the DoY would ever be changed again outside of WG saying "Oh, this isn't performing like we want" *minor buff*;  it's interesting to hear what people would like to see or enjoy about it's current aspects. 

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9 hours ago, Seniorious said:

It's what we all wanted.....but muh HE flavor. 
So far the poll is 8/6 in favor of new DoY. 
While it's highly unlikely the DoY would ever be changed again outside of WG saying "Oh, this isn't performing like we want" *minor buff*;  it's interesting to hear what people would like to see or enjoy about it's current aspects. 

I still find the RNBB's overall fun, but it's not what I anticipated them being. I also still disagree with how they are now. The DOY, at least I thought we'd get a KGV that was Warspite like, but its not at all. The whole no repair idea was terrible for such a ship. I thought that the no repair idea should have been left for battlecruisers.

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