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legoboy0401

Controversial Opinion: Repair Party on Cruisers lower than Tier IX would be a good idea, especially IJN

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Right now, I feel that BBs are in a good spot, almost(but not quite) too good. DDs and CVs are in a bad spot. both for a myriad of reasons, and Cruisers, well, let's just say, some lines are doing better than others. The USN Cruiser split has brought the USN Cruisers just about up to par, German Cruisers are "eh" until Hipper, at which tier they are just slightly above that, Russian Cruisers just get more insane with each new one, RN CLs are a mixed bag of anything and everything from terrible, lightly-armed cannon-fodder with nary a single great weapon system to Top-of the-food-chain monsters that spew pure rage at their enemies. Then there's the French, which are GREAT in the low tiers, PRETTY AWFUL at tier VI, and then spend the rest of the tiers after said awful tier VI rebuilding their reputation.

 

IJN, though. are more like Abruzzi, with, it must be said, a few exceptions. In other words, high skill floor, somewhat lower skill ceiling than some cruisers, bad range, and huge citadels + slow turning turrets which together rule out any sort of brawling except in the most desperate situations. As Flamu said about Abruzzi, these IJN Cruisers are missing something, a certain spark of character, a certain niche that keeps bringing you back to them time and time again. 155 Mogami is an exception, but once the full line of USN CLs come, she too will be out-performed and defunct in a role even now she has lost a lot of efficacy in.

 

But anyway, where, now,  is the IJN Cruiser niche? The only things special I can find are a large number of torps with a mostly consistent range, and fire chance. Other than that, everyone else does that thing better. Soviet CLs do the flamethrower thing just as well, if not better. RN are better at area denial with torps thanks to the magic of single-launch torps. The German torps have much better arcs and are of actual use in a brawling situation. French do the 8 inch flamethrower just as good, but with more range and, unlike the IJN. THEY HAVE LOTS AND LOTS OF SPEED! USN have "better"(btw,  actually worse) arcs that are in any case much better at firing over islands, as well as radar which is not something the IJN Cruisers get.:Smile_sceptic:. Lastly, there are the coming USN CLs, which, as discussed previously, make Mogami only a USN CL with better arcs and torps, but worse nearly everything else + no radar.

 

This got me thinking: What if, what if Aoba, Myoko, and Mogami(in other words, the IJN Cruiser line from Tier VI) got Damage Repair Party, instead of only Ibuki and Zao having access to it, as well as Atago and ARP Takao? Atago and Takao still have forward-facing torps, which the rest of the line from Tier VI don't get, so they still have an advantage.

 

Tier VI+ are super squishy, especially Aoba and Mogami, so it might work. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, like the RN CL DRP, but it would be a much appreciated boost to a line long forgotten with very little changes other than nerfs, and which has been powercreeped a terrible amount.

 

Something needs to change, regardless, and NOT for the worse. Aoba and Mogami are atrociously squishy, Aoba is all-round poor in everything, including WR, and Mogami's sole selling point is about to be a registered trademark of another nation's (light) cruisers.

 

What are your thoughts?

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IMO all cruisers tier 6 and up should receive the repair party consumable. Maybe give lower tiers less charges or a less effective version of it, tier 6+ should get access to it.

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Just now, Cruiser_StLouis said:

IMO all cruisers tier 6 and up should receive the repair party consumable. Maybe give lower tiers less charges or a less effective version of it, tier 6+ should get access to it.

That's about my stance as well. I just covered the ones I think need it the most, is all. :Smile_great:

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3 minutes ago, Cruiser_StLouis said:

IMO all cruisers tier 6 and up should receive the repair party consumable.

Wow, and my opinion is that if every ship doesn't get them then none, including BBs, should get them. I get real tired of damaging BBs and high end cruisers only to watch them repair away most of the damage. Heal could really just go away.

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11 minutes ago, Cruiser_StLouis said:

IMO all cruisers tier 6 and up should receive the repair party consumable. Maybe give lower tiers less charges or a less effective version of it, tier 6+ should get access to it.

Probably not tier 6, maybe on tier 7 but tier 8s certainly should get access to the repair party, would help Cleveland and Mogami out, a lot.

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3 minutes ago, 212thAttackBattalion said:

Probably not tier 6, maybe on tier 7 but tier 8s certainly should get access to the repair party, would help Cleveland and Mogami out, a lot.

Maybe Aoba though, if WG decides to keep her, should be buffed by getting it.

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I can't really see Hipper getting a heal, because WeeGee just gave the Prinz Eugen a heal to differentiate the twins. If they give the Hipper a heal, then they're back to where they started. Why bother with the Eugen when the Hipper would have better DPM and maneuverability?

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11 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Wow, and my opinion is that if every ship doesn't get them then none, including BBs, should get them. I get real tired of damaging BBs and high end cruisers only to watch them repair away most of the damage. Heal could really just go away.

Nerp. No can do. Besides, only RN CLs and BBs can do what you just described. IJN Cruisers for the most part are way too vulnerable to HE and fire damage and a repair party(heal) would do a lot to make enemy cruisers have to switch to AP.

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1 minute ago, DarfTarts421 said:

I can't really see Hipper getting a heal, because WeeGee just gave the Prinz Eugen a heal to differentiate the twins. If they give the Hipper a heal, then they're back to where they started. Why bother with the Eugen when the Hipper would have better DPM and maneuverability?

That's true. Atago has at least the forward-facing torps as an additional advantage over the tech tree Tier VI+ IJN Cruisers, so giving them a heal wouldn't make them necessarily better in every situation than Atago. Even Mogami has "eh" AA just like Atago.

 

IJN Cruisers wouldn't be rendered OP by their heal, because of course they are pretty large and still easy to hit, and Atago has both the heal AND forward-firing torps, and no one's claiming that she's OP.

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10 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

Besides, only RN CLs and BBs can do what you just described.

Better check your facts again; my new Brooklyn has heal, as do many other CAs.

12 minutes ago, legoboy0401 said:

Nerp. No can do.

This would bother me, except I know exactly how much attention WG pays to anything coming from their NA server. So it doesn't.

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11 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Better check your facts again; my new Brooklyn has heal, as do many other CAs.

Yes, of course they do, do you think I'm stupid? But no, THOSE ONES can't slip away and repair "tons" of damage. If my memory serves me right, no other vessels but the late-tier RN CLs and BBs get super-heals.

This would bother me, except I know exactly how much attention WG pays to anything coming from their NA server. So it doesn't.

Face the truth. BBs are balanced around heal, as are the RN CLs. WG likes the current state of Repair Party, and does not plan on removing it. Probably ever.

 

Edited by legoboy0401

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IJN has been power crept, that's all.  While they retain good fire starting HE and good AP, they lack anything to make them special.  All the new CLs and CAs get all kinds of cool toys, but Japan is forgotten.  Maybe just separate hydro and defensive fire so they can be a little more versatile? 

I don't think more heals is the answer.

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6 minutes ago, Hatework said:

IJN has been power crept, that's all.  While they retain good fire starting HE and good AP, they lack anything to make them special.  All the new CLs and CAs get all kinds of cool toys, but Japan is forgotten.  Maybe just separate hydro and defensive fire so they can be a little more versatile? 

I don't think more heals is the answer.

Nice idea, but I believe having both together will be the Italian Cruiser trait, as indeed both Duca D'Aosta and Abruzzi have them together.

 

:cap_hmm:Try again. The reason I think heals are the answer is they are kind of squishy(Aoba and Mogami being the real paper mache cruisers in the line), and Atago has proven that IJN Cruisers below Tier IX can have a heal without being OP. Even if Atago owners whine about such a change, they've still got forward arcs on their torpedoes to beat the tech tree cruisers over the head with.

 

Happy thinking!

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The niche of the IJN line is indeed that they are flamethrowers with solid torpedoes throughout the line. Though, the more you advance through the line the surface detectability stays mainly the same, while at tier 8 you can mount concealment mod 1. So from that point IJN becomes great at close and long range, only nation so far currently.
Also IJN gets big guns at tier 5; 203mm. Now with Pensacola going a step down the Americans get big guns at tier 6, the French and Germans at tier 7. The difference between the IJN T4 and T5 is big, but the play style people should develop, but doesn't happen, helps throughout the entire line.

Regarding your comparison with Abruzzi. I am not an armour model expert and I am also not going to bother with it. I have however some battle experience with both and they are nothing alike. Perhaps some expert could throw in some facts, though a quick check on the armour models would show it for you.

 

Regarding the DRP; Imo low tier battles already last long enough and IJN CAs are well balanced. IJN cruisers would be overpowered for sure with DRP. I do agree that Mogami needs a buff. The 203mm guns could be easily buffed on par with Myoko, or perhaps even on par with Zao. Same goes for Ibuki. 
TBH I think DRP for silver tier 8 cruisers would be justified, because BBs overall gain an accuracy buff at that tier. Not to mention difficult MM. On the other hand I think it is good that WG is holding their ground, because even when giving T8s a DRP people will eventually complain about T7s getting DRP.

At last some basic IJN tips for the medium tiers:

  • Use priority target to know how many people are aiming at you. This way you can see for yourself when you can show your broadside.
  • Only go broadside between shots of the reds. Otherwise stay angled. Someone not firing at you means he is waiting for your turn.
  • Sometimes reversing/slowing down might be the solution instead of a broadside turn.
  • Keep battleships at range while burning them down. Familiar with Kiting?
  • Use AP shells on broadside cruisers.
  • Torps are an addition, not your main weapon. Drop them when you can, but citadels are a faster income of damage and is often enough to stop the enemy. As you noticed they are not the same as KM torpedoes and trying to using them into a brawl is usually a quick way to port.
  • Try to keep an eye on your position. You can easily support a lone friendly DD, as long as you can get unconcealed again. Concealment; pretty important, even more at the higher tiers.
  • Slow turning guns early on. Positioning is thus even more important, so that you can always have your guns ready.
  • At last you can always post a replay for tips and tricks from forum addicts, or send your replay file to Lord_Zath for tips.

I hope this helps. IJN is a good and versatile line. The experience in cruiser-play you build up throughout it is tremendous and will be of great help for the more difficult lines like KM, SN, US and RN. I recently restarted on a different server and redoing the IJN grind. I might propose a Mogami buff after playing her again.
 

Edited by LemonadeWarrior

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5 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

The niche of the IJN line is indeed that they are flamethrowers with solid torpedoes throughout the line. Though, the more you advance through the line the surface detectability stays mainly the same, while at tier 8 you can mount concealment mod 1. So from that point IJN becomes great at close and long range, only nation so far currently.
Also IJN gets big guns at tier 5; 203mm. Now with Pensacola going a step down the Americans get big guns at tier 6, the French and Germans at tier 7. The difference between the IJN T4 and T5 is big, but the play style people should develop, but doesn't happen, helps throughout the entire line.

Regarding your comparison with Abruzzi. I am not an armour model expert and I am also not going to bother with it. I have however some battle experience with both and they are nothing alike. Perhaps some expert could throw in some facts, though a quick check on the armour models would show it for you.

 

Regarding the DRP; Imo low tier battles already last long enough and IJN CAs are well balanced. IJN cruisers would be overpowered for sure with DRP. I do agree that Mogami needs a buff. The 203mm guns could be easily buffed on par with Myoko, or perhaps even on par with Zao. Same goes for Ibuki. 
TBH I think DRP for silver tier 8 cruisers would be justified, because BBs overall gain an accuracy buff at that tier. Not to mention difficult MM. On the other hand I think it is good that WG is holding their ground, because even when giving T8s a DRP people will eventually complain about T7s getting DRP.

At last some basic IJN tips for the medium tiers:

  • Use priority target to know how many people are aiming at you. This way you can see for yourself when you can show your broadside.
  • Only go broadside between shots of the reds. Otherwise stay angled. Someone not firing at you means he is waiting for your turn.
  • Sometimes reversing/slowing down might be the solution instead of a broadside turn.
  • Keep battleships at range while burning them down. Familiar with Kiting?
  • Use AP shells on broadside cruisers.
  • Torps are an addition, not your main weapon. Drop them when you can, but citadels are a faster income of damage and is often enough to stop the enemy. As you noticed they are not the same as KM torpedoes and trying to using them into a brawl is usually a quick way to port.
  • Try to keep an eye on your position. You can easily support a lone friendly DD, as long as you can get unconcealed again. Concealment; pretty important, even more at the higher tiers.
  • Slow turning guns early on. Positioning is thus even more important, so that you can always have your guns ready.
  • At last you can always post a replay for tips and tricks from forum addicts, or send your replay file to Lord_Zath for tips.

I hope this helps. IJN is a good and versatile line. The experience in cruiser-play you build up throughout it is tremendous and will be of great help for the more difficult lines like KM, SN, US and RN. I recently restarted on a different server and redoing the IJN grind. I might propose a Mogami buff after playing her again.
 

Good advice, all of it, but it's nothing new to me.By the way, IJN Cruisers just flat out suck at close-range, until Zao. 

 

Anyhow, let me see, yes: Furutaka is a beast these days and is about as strong tier for tier as Zao.

 

 Aoba is... bad. There's no question about it, the way she is balanced is really showing its age. These days, she's more like a Furutaka sidegrade with a worse mm spread and ever-increasingly strong competition. Having only 6  8 inch guns with a miserable range and no spotter plane just  doesn't cut it against tier VIIIs, which she will see most of the time.

 

Myoko is average, neither Zao-good or Aoba/Mogami-bad. A solid performer that nevertheless feels a bit out of date due to other lines coming in. Powercreep among Tier VII CAs is rare, because the majority of them are pretty awkward ships to play, but Myoko isn't 100% inclined to follow that trend. Is she perfect? No. Is she terrible? Also no. While I'd like her to get a new consumable to change things up a bit, it's a personal preference and I can certainly understand those who would not.

 

Mogami, as it stands, is a ship with two personalities, neither of which are expressed well or really stand out, especially with the introduction of USN CLs. The 155 personality has always been the favorite, but it's been nerfed several times and now has lost a lot of the legendary might that it was once known for. The 203 personality, has had, has, and probably always will have(unless we get WG to change it) a very questionable performance that has led many to wonder what other differences there are between Myoko and 203 Mogami besides number of torps and Mogami's longer reload on the exact same guns with the same number of them. In addition, the biggest problem with both of these is just how dramatically the armor gets screwed up from Myoko to Mogami. Excepting of course, broadside, HE, and Musashi, the Myoko is a rock, whereas the Mogami's armor gets worse, and has to deal with Tier X BBs. Ouch. That's not going to polish out.

 

Ibuki is a Tier IX. Not great, but then again not many Tier IXs are. Even mediocrity in Tier IX is quite an achievement, which is what the Ibuki does manage to bring home. It's also remarkable as the last IJN Cruiser with 10 km torps and 16 torps.

 

Zao. Is this ship OP, bad, or somewhere in the middle? I've heard all of them from players before. It's better at close range than all the rest, but does lose out in health compared to other Tier X CAs. In my personal opinion, Zao seems to be good, but I haven't seen it in action yet because I don't own anything higher than Tier VII. However, when a ship as super good with insane HE as Conqueror gets termed Mega-Zao, then I think we can safely say that Zao is at least a decent ship.

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4 hours ago, legoboy0401 said:

Good advice, all of it, but it's nothing new to me.By the way, IJN Cruisers just flat out suck at close-range, until Zao. 

 

Anyhow, let me see, yes: Furutaka is a beast these days and is about as strong tier for tier as Zao.

 

 Aoba is... bad. There's no question about it, the way she is balanced is really showing its age. These days, she's more like a Furutaka sidegrade with a worse mm spread and ever-increasingly strong competition. Having only 6  8 inch guns with a miserable range and no spotter plane just  doesn't cut it against tier VIIIs, which she will see most of the time.

 

Myoko is average, neither Zao-good or Aoba/Mogami-bad. A solid performer that nevertheless feels a bit out of date due to other lines coming in. Powercreep among Tier VII CAs is rare, because the majority of them are pretty awkward ships to play, but Myoko isn't 100% inclined to follow that trend. Is she perfect? No. Is she terrible? Also no. While I'd like her to get a new consumable to change things up a bit, it's a personal preference and I can certainly understand those who would not.

 

Mogami, as it stands, is a ship with two personalities, neither of which are expressed well or really stand out, especially with the introduction of USN CLs. The 155 personality has always been the favorite, but it's been nerfed several times and now has lost a lot of the legendary might that it was once known for. The 203 personality, has had, has, and probably always will have(unless we get WG to change it) a very questionable performance that has led many to wonder what other differences there are between Myoko and 203 Mogami besides number of torps and Mogami's longer reload on the exact same guns with the same number of them. In addition, the biggest problem with both of these is just how dramatically the armor gets screwed up from Myoko to Mogami. Excepting of course, broadside, HE, and Musashi, the Myoko is a rock, whereas the Mogami's armor gets worse, and has to deal with Tier X BBs. Ouch. That's not going to polish out.

 

Ibuki is a Tier IX. Not great, but then again not many Tier IXs are. Even mediocrity in Tier IX is quite an achievement, which is what the Ibuki does manage to bring home. It's also remarkable as the last IJN Cruiser with 10 km torps and 16 torps.

 

Zao. Is this ship OP, bad, or somewhere in the middle? I've heard all of them from players before. It's better at close range than all the rest, but does lose out in health compared to other Tier X CAs. In my personal opinion, Zao seems to be good, but I haven't seen it in action yet because I don't own anything higher than Tier VII. However, when a ship as super good with insane HE as Conqueror gets termed Mega-Zao, then I think we can safely say that Zao is at least a decent ship.

On what do you base that they "flat out suck" at close range? Decent dispersion and good HE shells pack a punch on a destroyers, but also on cruisers.

Aoba is not even close to bad. She has a fire chance of 17%. Only SN and MN come close, but SN HE shells don't do any damage. Well, as far as I recall T6 sees barely tier 8s, but perhaps you are the only one who has so much bad luck. Anyhow, still Aoba is still okay in a T8 fight.
To end this. IJN doesn't need buffs, except Mogami, but not DRP for sure.

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4 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

On what do you base that they "flat out suck" at close range? Decent dispersion and good HE shells pack a punch on a destroyers, but also on cruisers.

On the basis of their slow-turning turrets until Zao, torpedo arcs of pretty much zippo use in a brawl, and large turning circles, as well as Flamu's opinion.

Aoba is not even close to bad. She has a fire chance of 17%. Only SN and MN come close, but SN HE shells don't do any damage. Well, as far as I recall T6 sees barely tier 8s, but perhaps you are the only one who has so much bad luck. Anyhow, still Aoba is still okay in a T8 fight.
To end this. IJN doesn't need buffs, except Mogami, but not DRP for sure.

hahahahahahahahahahahah. You serious?

dc2.gif 

 

Aoba is horrible, and even WG and super unicums think so. WG so much so that they are considering replacing her with an 8-gun proto-Myoko.

Also, Tier VIs generally see Tier VIIIs about every 2-3 games, not like every 10. Sorry, dude, better check your facts again. In addition, Aoba's range and only 6 guns, + lack of a spotter plane just doesn't cut it against Tier VIIIs, meaning she's grinding her teeth every time she goes up against them.

 

Edited by legoboy0401
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Perhaps you need to improve in reading the minimap? Nothing wrong with slow turning guns, besides they don’t even turn that slow. 

Yes, the torpedo angles suck for a brawl. Perhaps you should adjust your gameplay and don’t use them during a brawl.

 

Tbh I am not very fond of being called stupid when I am trying to help. You happen to know many things, yet you fail to get it to work. Calling Myoko average was already an indication of your ignorance.

What super unicums? What prototype? Flamu, well if you insist perhaps sent a link, because I don’t like his videos.

EDIT: So I jumped on my laptop and I checked your quote:

7 hours ago, legoboy0401 said:

On the basis of their slow-turning turrets until Zao

This is simply not true. Go check for yourself. I will wait till you show me some facts -> not claims. Use a source.

Edited by LemonadeWarrior

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17 hours ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Perhaps you need to improve in reading the minimap? Nothing wrong with slow turning guns, besides they don’t even turn that slow. 

Pray tell me. What, then, do you call worst in tier, on-the-better-side-of-BB-turret traverse speed from Aoba to Mogami that only starts returning to cruiser levels at Ibuki, and absurd fragility(not RN CL levels of course, and this doesn't apply as much to Myoko, but still)in those same tiers that, once again, only gets better with Ibuki? As to the first, I'd have to call them SLOW TURNING TURRETS. How do you like them apples, hmm?

As for the second, I'm not half-bad with positioning, and sometimes will get the best position, (100% legit) for my vessel in the entire battle. But positioning, no matter how good, is useless when your team are potatoes that all died within 4 minutes and without killing more than 1 enemy ship, and thus you are able to be assaulted from all angles. Positioning is critical, yes, but it helps less in steamrolls than it should.

Yes, the torpedo angles suck for a brawl. Perhaps you should adjust your gameplay and don’t use them during a brawl.

Perhaps you should adjust your thinking and not think that IJN Cruisers are brawlers. They're not. The job of brawling belongs without fail to late-tier German Cruisers, for now, and everyone else is some kind of a variation on a spamming playstyle, except for USN Cruisers which are support cruisers primarily.

 

Quote

 

Tbh I am not very fond of being called stupid when I am trying to help. You happen to know many things, yet you fail to get it to work. Calling Myoko average was already an indication of your ignorance.

Sorry about that. You too know many things, but what you don't understand, is: A, I'm an IJN Cruiser line main, not that I am a weeboo, because I am not, but I do get it to work, except Aoba, and B, there is a logical reason why I called Myoko average.

 

As you no doubt well know, Myoko was once almost OP for the simple reason Pensacola was bad. But then came lots and lots more Tier VII Cruisers, and of them, the majority have been almost OP: Schors, Algerie, Fiji,  New Orleans-at-Tier-VII, Payfast(actually OP), as well as the meh/bad ones getting buffs(Yorck and Indianapolis, anyone?) With the majority of Tier VII Cruisers being good or OP, Myoko's status has gone from that of a super unique and strong hero, to that of your average joe. Not necessarily a zero, but certainly no longer a hero.

What super unicums? What prototype? Flamu, well if you insist perhaps sent a link, because I don’t like his videos.

first of all, I know ones like Notser and Aerroon, hate her, and Flamu's review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dnsluivTRY isn't super favorable. Also, go ask someone else for the blueprints of the prototype, I don't remember who found it.

EDIT: So I jumped on my laptop and I checked your quote:

This is simply not true. Go check for yourself. I will wait till you show me some facts -> not claims. Use a source.

Nope, it is you who are lying here. What are you smoking, calling Myoko and Mogami turrets fast? Whatever it is, it must be pretty potent for you to entertain that notion.

No offense, but here is a question that needs to be answered: Where are you getting the idea that Aoba is a great statistical performer? Hopefully not WoWS.Today: It's badly screwed up and no one uses it anymore for that exact reason.

 

Edited by legoboy0401

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Tier 8 is a tough place to be in match-maker, and being a cruiser often gets harder as you go up in tiers (with some exceptions) as range, accuracy, and striking power of enemy artillery increases. 

I'd be fine with adding the Heal option to Tier 8 Cruisers (all of them) since it is such a rough spot in the tiers in general, and for cruisers in particular given the terrifying things they can face at that tier.

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