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Lensar

DD vs DD = CV vs CV?

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I think radar rich environments are starting to highlight an issue with DDs that has likely always been there.

One of the main frustration with CVs is that most CV matches are decided by which ever side has the best CV player. This is lame because it renders the actions of the other 22 players more or less moot.

i'm starting to think a similar situation is playing out with DDs. Now that radar has pushed a lot of DD play out to the flank, we're seeing a lot more match impact from cases with a DD vs DD skill imbalance.

Radar absolutely punishes lower skilled and average DD players while having almost no effect on skilled DDers. In fact, i'd argue that very skilled DD players receive a huge benefit from radar, since it thins the herd of the one ship type that can unexpexrabtly spot a good DDer.

Most of us would agree that a team with one DD left has a huge advantage vs one with no DDs left. In my anecdotal experience, this is happening more and more. Heck, I am surviving around 65% of my matches since the radar explosion, which is definitely helping my winrate.

Radar is a silly and stupid mechanic, there's no denying it. But the worst part is that it's pretty much worthless against skilled DDers, who end up having the run of the map very often, resulting in  undue influence on the match outcome.

No idea how to fix this mess, and while overall DD numbers will likely continue to drop, I suspect we'll actually see more and more shimas  as players lean more and more in the 3 volley torp spam to try and score hits while remaining 10k out from threats. 

Edited by Lensar
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I dunno about “falling DD numbers”... 5/6 games today had 4 on each side. Almost never below three apiece. That might just be my experience though...

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Anecdotally, I still see the occasional 5 DD per side match, but also 1 DD per side. Most matches still seem to be 2 or 3 per side, but the overall stats show DDs being played much less vs the other two surface ship classes.

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26 minutes ago, Lensar said:

I think radar rich environments are starting to highlight an issue with DDs that has likely always been there.

One of the main frustration with CVs is that most CV matches are decided by which ever side has the best CV player. This is lame because it renders the actions of the other 22 players more or less moot.

i'm starting to think a similar situation is playing out with DDs. Now that radar has pushed a lot of DD play out to the flank, we're seeing a lot more match impact from cases with a DD vs DD skill imbalance.

Radar absolutely punishes lower skilled and average DD players while having almost no effect on skilled DDers. In fact, i'd argue that very skilled DD players receive a huge benefit from radar, since it thins the herd of the one ship type that can unexpexrabtly spot a good DDer.

Most of us would agree that a team with one DD left has a huge advantage vs one with no DDs left. In my anecdotal experience, this is happening more and more. Heck, I am surviving around 65% of my matches since the radar explosion, which is definitely helping my winrate.

Radar is a silly and stupid mechanic, there's no denying it. But the worst part is that it's pretty much worthless against skilled DDers, who end up having the run of the map very often, resulting in  undue influence on the match outcome.

No idea how to fix this mess, and while overall DD numbers will likely continue to drop, I suspect we'll actually see more and more shimas  as players lean more and more in the 3 volley torp spam to try and score hits while remaining 10k out from threats. 

 

Interesting. I would like to see the input from other good high tier DD players. Are they seeing the same thing?

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Better player always going have more chances to win no matter in what class.

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8 minutes ago, AchievementsToYou said:

better players win more often? what a coincidence!

I believe what he was saying is that RADAR isn't the end all be all of DDs. If you are a good player and the average players on the red team are using RADAR as a crutch rather than a tool, then you can stick that crutch... well you get it.

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I'm not experienced in destroyers (296 games played) but have played 90 games in German destroyers since the usn cruiser changes, starting with Gaede, and now 1 match in the z-46. Very average damage and kills, but collectively 60-30. And that's solo play.

I can't really compare to the prior meta, but I try to 1) not die 2) skittishly cap 3) spot ships. And that has been working quite well.

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25 minutes ago, AchievementsToYou said:

better players win more often? what a coincidence!

And they win even more when the skill floor is really high.  That was the point.  The CV problem came to a head because of skill discrepancy.  We aren't anywhere close to that level with DDs yet.  It seems it might be moving in that direction.

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IMO is quite the opposite, radar allows teams to win even if they have  bad DDs on their teams. 

 

Teams with better DDs were always more likely to win, DDs can play objectives better than most other ships, they can control vision (scout/spot/smoke), get caps and kill other DDs better than most other ships. So if you have better DDs its half a sim from the start.

 

Radar allows teams to keep fighting even if you have bad DDs, you can use radar/planes to kinda "fix" your lack of vision control due to bad DDs. This dont replace DDs because radar is limited but give you a chance of keep fighting. 

 

This is pretty clear in low/middle tier battles where you have few radar ships, the team with better DDs win very easily because there is no radar to allow you to "replace" your bad DDs and keep fighting.

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3 hours ago, AchievementsToYou said:

better players win more often? what a coincidence!

No. Above average players win a TON more due to the silly radar mechanic. I'm a 53% win rate player. Just over the past few weeks I've upped my Shima 3 year average from 53 to just under 59%.

That'a how drastic the skill curve is now for DDs and it's silly. Radar has actually made playing a DD easier for me. 

Which, I suspect, defeats their whole point of putting it in. Not only does it not address whatever problem they were trying to fix, it actually exacerbates the problem.

Of course, this is only for random matches. Nice ranked and clan wars, radar just makes the whole game miserable.

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15 minutes ago, Lensar said:

No. Above average players win a TON more due to the silly radar mechanic. I'm a 53% win rate player. Just over the past few weeks I've upped my Shima 3 year average from 53 to just under 59%.

That'a how drastic the skill curve is now for DDs and it's silly. Radar has actually made playing a DD easier for me. 

Which, I suspect, defeats their whole point of putting it in. Not only does it not address whatever problem they were trying to fix, it actually exacerbates the problem.

Of course, this is only for random matches. Nice ranked and clan wars, radar just makes the whole game miserable.

I'm pretty sure the whole reason Radar was added was to make cruisers more capable of influencing a match, not to address the DD skill curve. Before Radar was introduced, cruisers really did have poor influence in the outcome of games. Even now, they are still the least influential type, but they are more influential than they used to be.

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47 minutes ago, ryuukei8569 said:

I'm pretty sure the whole reason Radar was added was to make cruisers more capable of influencing a match, not to address the DD skill curve. Before Radar was introduced, cruisers really did have poor influence in the outcome of games. Even now, they are still the least influential type, but they are more influential than they used to be.

No one knows why radar was added, because WG hasn't deigned to tell us the reason for it.

Radar doesn't help cruisers be influential. It helps them sit behind an island doing nothing but being a single button-push gimmick boat, while cruisers like the Hindi and Zao continue to perform extremely well without radar. It's an all around bad mechanic that has markedly made the game worse, not better.

But since you skipped over that part in your reply, let me reiterate. All radar has done is make it EASIER for skilled DD players to have undue influence on the outcome of the match, while punishing average and below average DD players. It hasn't made playing a cruiser anymore enjoyable, for anyone. They only ones it's possibly helped is BBs, who have a lot more targets to shoot at. It's just been a horrible addition to the game overall; something your average player is finally starting to realize.

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7 minutes ago, Lensar said:

No one knows why radar was added, because WG hasn't deigned to tell us the reason for it.

Radar doesn't help cruisers be influential. It helps them sit behind an island doing nothing but being a single button-push gimmick boat, while cruisers like the Hindi and Zao continue to perform extremely well without radar. It's an all around bad mechanic that has markedly made the game worse, not better.

But since you skipped over that part in your reply, let me reiterate. All radar has done is make it EASIER for skilled DD players to have undue influence on the outcome of the match, while punishing average and below average DD players. It hasn't made playing a cruiser anymore enjoyable, for anyone. They only ones it's possibly helped is BBs, who have a lot more targets to shoot at. It's just been a horrible addition to the game overall; something your average player is finally starting to realize.

Actually Radar has brought some relief to the sit in smoke and Spam HE/AP meta. Yeah i get it, as a DD main you hate radar, because you don't like crapthat counters you. Well if you want radar to go away, then smoke fire needs to go away too. But as long as smoke fire stays, Radar stays too. At least they got rid of smoke firing BB's, that was pure ridiculousness.

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Considering how many whine threads about radar pops up on the forum on a daily basis, it seems radar cruisers are quite influential. Only thing that created more tears than radar so far was CVs.

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3 minutes ago, EmperorMaxwell said:

Considering how many whine threads about radar pops up on the forum on a daily basis, it seems radar cruisers are quite influential. Only thing that created more tears than radar so far was CVs.

Yeah who would have thought, that the DD mafia's tears would eventually produce a bigger ocean of salt than the tears shed by the BaBBy crowd.

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Just now, ryuukei8569 said:

Yeah who would have thought, that the DD mafia's tears would eventually produce a bigger ocean of salt than the tears shed by the BaBBy crowd.

The DDrama Queens' tears are one of the purest joys that can be experienced on this forum. 

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3 minutes ago, ryuukei8569 said:

Yeah who would have thought, that the DD mafia's tears would eventually produce a bigger ocean of salt than the tears shed by the BaBBy crowd.

Welcome to ignore. You offer nothing meaningful at all to the discussion other than whining and trolling and have zero understanding of the game.

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