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IronMike11B4O

Baked in IF HE on 114mm and lower?

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Should guns of 114mm and lower have baked in IFHE? Since IF HE is a massive 4 point skill and guns like Akizuki and apparently now high tier British DD's will need it as must have skill.

That's a massive amount of skill points for DD's with anemic torp reloads. It just seems the trade offs just to get guns to work for a DD is a bit much especially in light of all the new radar spam.

Baked in IFHE should it be a thing for these small caliber guns?

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I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think WG would ever implement it after all you can use elite xp to get the skill points

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Just now, justdags said:

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think WG would ever implement it after all you can use elite xp to get the skill points

Elite XP has nothing to do with it. I have 42 19pt captains and they in no way factor into the IFHE conversation.

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Instead they are going to lower DD armour values so BB AP doesn't pen.... as a trade off you get to be more vulnerable to secondary calibre guns, and other DD are now more lethal. #Winning? You will still need to take IFHE if you plan on doing anything to BB, you know the ship DD is supposed to counter... giggle....

 

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No more then torp specialist DDs get Torp Arm Expertise or a CV gets....

There is a reason those upgrades are out there.   Let people earn them and make their own decisions.

 

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7 minutes ago, Warped_1 said:

No more then torp specialist DDs get Torp Arm Expertise or a CV gets...

Yeah, but these skills improve already usable weapons.  IFHE is needed to make the small caliber guns work.  There's a big difference.  

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If you give IFHE to one you must give it to all, discrimination is not good.

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Just now, Sovereigndawg said:

If you give IFHE to one you must give it to all, discrimination is not good.

Well, then WG can just give these ships usable guns right out of the box, you know, like every other ship in the game.

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2 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

Well, then WG can just give these ships usable guns right out of the box, you know, like every other ship in the game.

So Akizuki is unusable without IFHE? Seems like she is a good ship right out of the box

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1 hour ago, IronMike11B4O said:

Should guns of 114mm and lower have baked in IFHE? Since IF HE is a massive 4 point skill and guns like Akizuki and apparently now high tier British DD's will need it as must have skill.

That's a massive amount of skill points for DD's with anemic torp reloads. It just seems the trade offs just to get guns to work for a DD is a bit much especially in light of all the new radar spam.

Baked in IFHE should it be a thing for these small caliber guns?

No. There are no free rides. Choose your skill points like everyone else.

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if Akizuki is to get baked in IFHE, then she needs to lose access to AP Shells entirely. same with Kitakaze and Harugumo (since they are planned to come with AP Shells)... even then, for Destroyers, 1/5 semi-super HE would be more than sufficient.

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1 minute ago, Sovereigndawg said:

So Akizuki is unusable without IFHE? Seems like she is a good ship right out of the box

She cannot penetrate 19mm armor (bow/stern armor of DDs 8-10 currently). At best 16mm without it. So angled DDs you would have to aim for a DDs superstructure....

Once the DD armor change is implemented where, with exception, 13mm armor will be on Destroyers, making Akizuki standard out of the box. AP would still need to be used to penetrate BB superstructure until IFHE is taken, then HE and AP can penetrate BB superstructure.

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Just now, Sovereigndawg said:

So Akizuki is unusable without IFHE? Seems like she is a good ship right out of the box

Relatively speaking, yes.  Having HE that pens same tier DDs isn't asking for much.  Imagine a BB with guns that didn't work without a 4 point captain skill.  That wouldn't fly.   I don't see why its acceptable for DDs.  IFHE on 152's is fine because they are perfectly usable as is. 

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3 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

She cannot penetrate 19mm armor (bow/stern armor of DDs 8-10 currently). At best 16mm without it. So angled DDs you would have to aim for a DDs superstructure....

Once the DD armor change is implemented where, with exception, 13mm armor will be on Destroyers, making Akizuki standard out of the box. AP would still need to be used to penetrate BB superstructure until IFHE is taken, then HE and AP can penetrate BB superstructure.

I used AP until I had enough Captains points for IFHE, she did under perform until I got IFHE but I got through it.

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5 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

if Akizuki is to get baked in IFHE, then she needs to lose access to AP Shells entirely. same with Kitakaze and Harugumo (since they are planned to come with AP Shells)... even then, for Destroyers, 1/5 semi-super HE would be more than sufficient.

And your reasoning for this is... what exactly?

 

 

 

 

And it's not just T8+ DDs that the 114 and 100mm HE are ineffective against - T8+ battleships also have 19mm of superstructure armor, meaning without IFHE you literally cannot do damage to battleships at all with your HE - and AP against them is incredibly situational based on angle. Even slight angling starts causing a large number of shatters with the AP against even 19mm of armor, which does not remotely fly if you're fighting someone at all competent.

Akizuki can somewhat get away with it due to being T8, and thus gets at least some games with T6/7s, against which the ship doesn't doesn't need IFHE. Kitakaze/Jutland on the other hand will almost entirely see T8+, and Harugumo/Daring will exclusively see T8+, meaning that no longer applies.

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19 minutes ago, NozTheWhiteDawn said:

And your reasoning for this is... what exactly?

1. 100mm/65 Type 98 cannons, the ones used on Akizuki, never had AP shells, just HE shells. Though I personally do not mind, I still find it weird seeing AP Shells on the Akizuki. If her guns were to get built in IFHE, I believe AP shells will need to be removed, for proper balance.

2. A 1/5 HE armor penetration, the 100mm will be able to penetrate 20mm armor. HE shells now naturally able to penetrate and damage angled DDs, and BB superstructures. Get IFHE and that becomes 26mm armor. That kind of armor penetration allows for Bow/stern of tier 6-7 battleships and some tier 8-10 cruisers.

If it was 1/4 penetration like other Super HE shells, that's 25mm armor penetration, and 32mm with IFHE. At that point, Akizuki's guns would be equivalent of light cruisers, other than damage output. I do not believe 100mm main battery should perform like the main battery of light cruisers. Hence my call for Semi-Super HE, on the condition she loses AP shells.

Edited by Counter_Gambit

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2 hours ago, Canadatron said:

Instead they are going to lower DD armour values so BB AP doesn't pen.... as a trade off you get to be more vulnerable to secondary calibre guns, and other DD are now more lethal. #Winning? You will still need to take IFHE if you plan on doing anything to BB, you know the ship DD is supposed to counter... giggle....

 

That is going to backfire so bad.  Pretty sure by the time its over DD's are going to want the old way back.

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1 hour ago, Sovereigndawg said:

If you give IFHE to one you must give it to all, discrimination is not good.

Don't forget those 114mm guns fire a 25kg shell with more bursting charge than Gearing (which also fires a 25kg shell) Shima fires a 23kg shell and Akizuki fires a 13kg shell for comparison.

It's just on the wrong side of the calculation and should certainly have the same pen as other standard destroyer rounds.

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2 hours ago, justdags said:

I can see where you are coming from, but I don't think WG would ever implement it after all you can use elite xp to get the skill points

 

They already essentially have; it's know here as German HE.

 

Regardless, in general response to the whole topic, there's still the more important issue of velocity for those 114mm RN DD shells, which is horrible. The shells actually first have to get and connect with the target to potentially do damage, with or without IFHE.  That will be difficult. 

Edited by lemekillmister

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25 minutes ago, Palladia said:

That is going to backfire so bad.  Pretty sure by the time its over DD's are going to want the old way back.

Basically any remotely competent DD player has been saying this from the time it was originally announced. It's not remotely a "Will want the old way back" thing, I just want WG to actually competently fix the real issues, but it seems they are literally incapable of bothering do do so. Why introduce a simple solution when you can just massively overcomplicate to the point of completely breaking other things.

 

49 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

1. 100mm/65 Type 98 cannons, the ones used on Akizuki, never had AP shells, just HE shells. Though I personally do not mind, I still find it weird seeing AP Shells on the Akizuki. If her guns were to get built in IFHE, I believe AP shells will need to be removed, for proper balance.

2. A 1/5 HE armor penetration, the 100mm will be able to penetrate 20mm armor. HE shells now naturally able to penetrate and damage angled DDs, and BB superstructures. Get IFHE and that becomes 26mm armor. That kind of armor penetration allows for Bow/stern of tier 6-7 battleships and some tier 8-10 cruisers.

If it was 1/4 penetration like other Super HE shells, that's 25mm armor penetration, and 32mm with IFHE. At that point, Akizuki's guns would be equivalent of light cruisers, other than damage output. I do not believe 100mm main battery should perform like the main battery of light cruisers. Hence my call for Semi-Super HE, on the condition she loses AP shells.

 

27 minutes ago, creamgravy said:

Don't forget those 114mm guns fire a 25kg shell with more bursting charge than Gearing (which also fires a 25kg shell) Shima fires a 23kg shell and Akizuki fires a 13kg shell for comparison.

It's just on the wrong side of the calculation and should certainly have the same pen as other standard destroyer rounds.

Who cares about the Type 98 not historically having AP (something I'm fully aware of)? WG certainly doesn't care about historical accuracy a large chunk of the time, and arguments solely along the lines of "well, historically..." instead of anything remotely related to proper game balance are some of the worst in the game. Akizuki HE and AP are used in completely different situations - at least by competent captains of the ship - and making the HE better does not somehow make stripping the AP off and turning the ship into a mindless HE spammer with no ammunition considerations "balanced."

There are plenty of actual "well, historically..." issues that could be brought up that would actually improve the game, starting with the idiocy of the underwater British BB citadels, to try and argue incredibly arbitrary nerfs/buffs based upon that principle should go through. To play the "well, historically..." game, they're not even remotely historically accurate, even before accounting for the hilariously bad powder handling practices by the Royal Navy which should make them even more vulnerable. Or IJN torpedoes with their hilariously large detection ranges and incredibly long reload times - because that certainly makes sense for the nation with the stealthiest torpedoes of the war... and the only one that regularly carried torpedo reloads at all on their ships.

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3 hours ago, IronMike11B4O said:

Should guns of 114mm and lower have baked in IFHE? Since IF HE is a massive 4 point skill and guns like Akizuki and apparently now high tier British DD's will need it as must have skill.

 

It's also a must-have skill for the USN CLs with 6" guns and it's not baked in there...

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48 minutes ago, NozTheWhiteDawn said:

Who cares about the Type 98 not historically having AP (something I'm fully aware of)? WG certainly doesn't care about historical accuracy a large chunk of the time, and arguments solely along the lines of "well, historically..." instead of anything remotely related to proper game balance are some of the worst in the game. Akizuki HE and AP are used in completely different situations - at least by competent captains of the ship - and making the HE better does not somehow make stripping the AP off and turning the ship into a mindless HE spammer with no ammunition considerations "balanced."

There are plenty of actual "well, historically..." issues that could be brought up that would actually improve the game, starting with the idiocy of the underwater British BB citadels, to try and argue incredibly arbitrary nerfs/buffs based upon that principle should go through. To play the "well, historically..." game, they're not even remotely historically accurate, even before accounting for the hilariously bad powder handling practices by the Royal Navy which should make them even more vulnerable. Or IJN torpedoes with their hilariously large detection ranges and incredibly long reload times - because that certainly makes sense for the nation with the stealthiest torpedoes of the war... and the only one that regularly carried torpedo reloads at all on their ships.

Okay, you completely misrepresented my argument. Yes, I pointed to historical accuracy. Later in that same paragraph I clearly stated "I do not mind." And then later still, that same paragraph, I told you it was my belief that AP should be removed if Akizuki gets built in IFHE. Once a player gets IFHE on Akizuki, rarely do you ever see them switching to AP rounds, because IFHE is more guaranteed damage output. So removing something that is not used majority of the time, isn't really going to change anything, even with balance, but if she is going to naturally be able to penetrate targets that she would normally need IFHE for, then she should most certainly lose the AP shells, which allows her to citadel certain cruisers.

ALSO: Giving Akizuki Built in IFHE, with her 3 second reload: she becomes an HE spammer right there. GEARING is an HE spammer. British Battleships with Super HE are HE Spammers. German battleships/Cruisers, are HE spammers because of Super HE.

So you not wanting HE spammers, but wanting to give Akizuki built in IFHE, when Akizuki players who take IFHE use nothing but HE... Yeah, you are already turning her into an HE spammer. So remove the AP, thus removing her ability to even attempt to penetrate cruiser citadels.

You are literally contradicting yourself by saying: "I don't want HE spammers, but I want certain high rate of fire ships to have built in IFHE..." OH, and Akizuki with IFHEis able to citadel Ranger CV with HE shells... more reason to not use anything but HE on Akizuki when you have iFHE...
 

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41 minutes ago, ramp4ge said:

 

It's also a must-have skill for the USN CLs with 6" guns and it's not baked in there...

It's not a must have skill for USN CLs. It just increases the locations in which your shells can hit to deal damage.

Even with IFHE on Akizuki, I still aim for DD's superstructure. I simply have larger area with which RNG can place a shell and I still do damage.

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There is a question of balance, but if you 'tune' the ships to work with IFHE including that they sacrifice 4 skill points then balance is balance.

Just baking it in can be a bit dangerous. Give a Daring IFHE baked in and it gets 24 mm base pen. If you allow it to take the skill again (like German/British BB can take IFHE on their 1/4 pen) then you end up with 31mm pen. That 31mm pens the 27mm bows of certain cruisers which even 127mm guns with IFHE cannot.

That's pretty fringe, but there are considerations.

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