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FrodoFraggin

IJN DDs

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I think most, if not all, players know IJN DDs aren’t in the strongest position and every release seems to exacerbate the issue, but what is the main thrust for rebalancing them?  Better-er torps, even less detection, improved gunpower to go toe to toe with others, more consumables like heal or hydro, nerf radar, nerf other DDs?  Not being snarky, I see the frustration, curious as to where people see improvements can be made.

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Problem with IJN DD's, IMO, they lost their identity. They were supposed to be the stealthy torp boats. Problem is there are DD's that have near the same stealth, but are better gun boats, faster, better torp boats, etc... The list goes on. You can't contest caps with a lot of DD's, your spotting doesn't mean much with the proliferation of radar, you tend to be slower, don't get me started on the dumb [edited]turret traverse, your torps are easily spotted. Just seems like, to me at least, IJN DD's lost their purpose.

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I would have much preferred a drop in torp detection then the concealment buff Shima got.  

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1 minute ago, Warped_1 said:

I would have much preferred a drop in torp detection then the concealment buff Shima got.  

The problem is, people hated playing against torpedo ninjas.  Since that's not an option, fix the guns and make them viable cap contestors.

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Improving their guns will lead to blurring of the personality of the line. I don't like that solution.

Improving their torpedoes is an itchy prospect. Buff them too little, it won't help. Buff them too much, they'll become a problem. Finding the right balance is very tricky.

Improving their concealment might carve a new niche for them, making them better scouts. Not sure that's the direction WG should go though, but I generally like the idea.

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I'd either cut down on the torpedo detection by another 100-200 meters or return IJN's HE to the slower-firing higher-alpha state they were previously.

Also buff the turret traverse to at least 21-22 seconds. Players don't need more reasons to not use their guns.

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I think the real problem is they have the best torpedo alpha so if they do hit they are devastating.  If the torpedo damage is nerfed it is much easier to buff the detection to the torps and concealment of the ships themselves and make them back into invisible, but weaker ninjas.

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In my opinion, they're decently strong. Their torps do decent damage, and they are not spectacularly hard to get on target. They kind of function like IJN BBs, not super strong, but certainly not bad ships.

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1 hour ago, FrodoFraggin said:

I think most, if not all, players know IJN DDs aren’t in the strongest position and every release seems to exacerbate the issue, but what is the main thrust for rebalancing them?  Better-er torps, even less detection, improved gunpower to go toe to toe with others, more consumables like heal or hydro, nerf radar, nerf other DDs?  Not being snarky, I see the frustration, curious as to where people see improvements can be made.

 

1 hour ago, Kevs02Accord said:

Problem with IJN DD's, IMO, they lost their identity. They were supposed to be the stealthy torp boats. Problem is there are DD's that have near the same stealth, but are better gun boats, faster, better torp boats, etc... The list goes on. You can't contest caps with a lot of DD's, your spotting doesn't mean much with the proliferation of radar, you tend to be slower, don't get me started on the dumb [edited]turret traverse, your torps are easily spotted. Just seems like, to me at least, IJN DD's lost their purpose.

 

1 hour ago, Warped_1 said:

I would have much preferred a drop in torp detection then the concealment buff Shima got.  

 

1 hour ago, crzyhawk said:

The problem is, people hated playing against torpedo ninjas.  Since that's not an option, fix the guns and make them viable cap contestors.

 

Yes to all these posts. This is exactly the feedback players have been giving WG since the shima torps got nerfed to useless scrap.... and WG as usual, does not listen nor care. If its not soviet it will not get fixed or improved based on feedback. Period. 

People hate playing against torp ninjas...yet WG happily gives communist ships the very ninja torps they claim were too OP for the torp-specialist nation to have. Notice communist servant states' (oh 'scuse me, 'pan-asian' ) ships have the DW torps and soviet torps despite being short range are literally invisible until just before they hit (and wasn't it nice how khabarovsk lost 10km torps yet was in the same patch given 0.1km detect torps? If it was IJN it would take 2 years before a nerf was ameliorated with an improvement). 

IJN needs to be given its torpedo specialty back. In a balanced and fair manner. Shima pre-nerf was so op even shima drivers were asking WG to tone it down and offered some good solutions... but the vodkasippers in charge, anus still burning from Tsushima, decided to wreck the entire torpedo capability into a joke. 

 

Starting at tier 8 the IJN needs to be given the Long Lance torpedo. Long Lance should come in 2 'settings': Long Range and Standard Range. Long Lance should have its historical pros and cons: Very low detectability, low speed, low damage. IJN Long Lance were difficult torpedoes to calibrate and prepare for firing so their reload timer should be the longest of any nation as well.  

The Long Lance had a historical max range of 40km at 35kn setting. A standard 22km range with 50kn setting. IJN did not develop TORPEX so it still used standard explosives..and the warhead wasn't that spectacular in performance. 

 

Then use the reload speed, range and damage and speed to balance the torpedoes out:

Long Range: 30km range, 45kn, 1km detect range. 12,000 damage per torpedo. Reload Timer: 160s.

Standard Range: 15km range, 52kn, 1km detect range, 16,000 damage per torpedo. Reload Timers: 160s

Remember, with a 15 torp salvo and the low detect range the shima hit rate will be much higher than it is now..mirroring Asashio's. Because of that, its torpedo damage needs to be cut down.. hence at 12k per torpedo for the long range torp shimakaze has a 180k potential damage per salvo of 15 torps. This figure is almost identical to Gearing's 179k potential max damage per salvo. The difference is the range and detection range of the torps. Shima's extra launcher increases hit chance and this is balanced out by the MUCH slower speed of the Long Lance. 

The lower speed of the Long Lance is a huge factor. At 45kn aiming at a target at long range will require significant lead...in a game with terrain blockages and the fact the target is extremely unlikely to sail in a straight line for what effectively would be 3x longer than if you were using a 'normal' speed torpedo of 55-65kn. This effectively makes the Shima's long range torps, for when used at long range, be torps that you do not fire at a lead indicator but rather as choke-point (terrain choke point or to create a choke point as your torpedoes sail by the red team) blind fire weapons. The long range also makes them difficult to use at closer ranges because it might hit friendlies further down the range (slow travel time, long range!). 

The standard range Long Lance is 1km shorter range than the Gearing's torpedoes and also much slower than Gearing's ... but they have the low detect range and a slightly better warhead. The total potential damage per salvo is 240k. This is still significantly lower than the current 20km torp reduced to 15km with torp acceleration. 

The long reload timer of both torps finishes balancing out their range and low detectability... the torpedo soup issue is greatly reduced because of this. 

 

So, starting at Tier 8 the IJN torpedo line (shimakaze line) should have:

Stock: 10km regular torpedoes currently issued to these ships. 

Upgrade: 8km range fast torps (rename them something other than the Type93 cause these arent long lance)

 

Tier 9: 

Stock: 8km range fast torps (rename them something other than the Type93 cause these arent long lance). 

Upgrade: 'Standard Range' Long Lance

 

Tier 10: 

Stock: 'Standard range' Long Lance.

Upgrade: 'Long Range' Long Lance.

Upgrade 2: ' Type 3 Light Torpedoes' (see below)

 

Likewise, the 'Gunboat' IJN destroyer line needs to be adapted into its own torpedo/gun niche. This is achieved by giving this line a new type of torpedo 'Light Torpedoes'. Light Torpedoes are fast, reload quickly and have short range...but do very low damage and have zero chance of flooding. Essentially these are anti-DD and anti-cruiser torpedoes... they wont be hurting a BB more than another BB gun salvo would. 

Gunboat DDs should get these starting at tier 8. 

 

Light Torpedoes would come in Type 1, 2, and 3 categories. 

Type 1: 10km range, 6000 damage, 1.5 detect, 70kn, 70s reload. 

Type 2: 8km range, 3000 damage, 0.8km detect, 80kn, 30s reload.

Type 3: 12km range, 2000 damage, 1km detect, 65kn, 45s reload. 

 

Tier 8: 

Stock: Current stock normal torpedo

Upgrade: Type 1

Tier 9:

Stock: Type 2

Upgrade: Type 3

Tier 10:

Stock: Type 1

Upgrade 1: Type 2

Upgrade 2: Type 3

 

With these torps and their guns, the gunboats are efficient anti-DD and cruiser harrassers yet can still harm battleships with torps..but their guns are probably more effective at the job. 

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It may simply boil down to power creep as this line has been out since the start. It is nice to see them looking at them again though.

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57 minutes ago, Lert said:

Improving their guns will lead to blurring of the personality of the line. I don't like that solution.

Improving their torpedoes is an itchy prospect. Buff them too little, it won't help. Buff them too much, they'll become a problem. Finding the right balance is very tricky.

Improving their concealment might carve a new niche for them, making them better scouts. Not sure that's the direction WG should go though, but I generally like the idea.

If you can't improve either their guns or their torps, nothing else matters.  This isn't to say that an improvement in concealment isn't nice, but it doesn't fix the real problem.  And that's that the IJN DDs are in a horrible spot offensively, because of torps that are too easy to spot combined with guns that are inferior to every other nation's DDs.  And making them better scouts just isn't going to cut it for most people.  People don't play ships because they want to be scouts, IMO.  Scouting is what you do in between making torpedo attacks, etc.  But if your DD's offensive capabilities are so damned pathetic, who the heck is going to want to play that DD just for the sake of being a "scout"?  Not many, I think.  I can play other nation's DDs and play the scout, and still have effective offensive capabilities at the same time.

Personally, I think that the IJN DDs do need to be buffed in some way related to their offensive potential.  I'd actually prefer them to get a gun buff.  To hell with this personality of the line nonsense.  Their guns don't have to be AS good as other nation's DD guns.  But they could be good enough to feel competitive, but in terms of turret traverse and reload time.

 

On a related topic (DDs), I feel that some Russian DDs need a major concealment boost.  The Russian DDs with horrible concealment were given such high concealment values to force their open water stealth firing ranges to not be too low, when that was a thing.  And that was understandable.  However, OWSF is gone, and the justification for them having such obscenely bad concealments is gone as well.  Their concealments should be reduced considerably, to the point where they can actually become cap contenders without getting spotted from the moon.  And before some get all wound up about DDs like the Kiev or the Khab having low concealments, I'd remind them that they'd still be so fast that it's almost impossible to dodge ship launched torps in a Khab if you haven't spotted them at a rather considerable range because of your general lack of maneuverability combined with high speed/inertia.  In short, taking the very fastest RU DDs into a brawl is highly risky.  But still, it seems to me that it's not something that should be so blatantly discouraged by terrible concealment.  Lower the concealment, tempt them to take the risk and come in closer, give them a reason to contend for caps rather than sniping away from over 10km.

 

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IJN dds are fine.I am having more fun with my Shima now than I ever have. Personally,  I think people play them incorrectly and that's why there are complaints about them. Few tricks..Use your great detection to spot...spotting wins....don't cap early, skirt the edges of caps until the enemy positions are known...… don't use the white indicator for your torps...ever. If you have a potato in your sites send the torps where you would go if you were him, if he is potato.. you can get him the next time. Stay in open water.. getting in the islands and channels blocks your visibility and that's when the hydro and radar monsters will kill you.

I cannot count how many times I have used my Shima to punch through to the enemy backside and simply herd 3-5 ships to the edge of the map. Many times I miss the torps but by spotting the rest of the team wipes them out. Its hard to not want to cap.... but doing so early is death.

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@Skyfaller

I agree with some of your conceptual points, but not with your Long Lance suggestions.  I don't think that they'd be a good fit for this game, at all.

I found it interesting that you say that the IJN torps didn't have torpex, and you suggest that IJN torps maybe shouldn't be so powerful.  If this is true, this could be the basis for some significant changes for IJN torps.  The devs could reduce their base damage and improve them in other areas.  IIRC, one of the things that gets mentioned by devs often is how much damage IJN torps do as the reason they're ambivalent about improving them in other areas.  So, IF IJN torp damage was reduced, then they could make improvements in other areas.  Maybe reduce IJN torp damage by about 25% to 33% but at the same time reduce their detection ranges considerably.

Just a thought...

 

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10 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

IJN dds are fine.I am having more fun with my Shima now than I ever have. Personally,  I think people play them incorrectly and that's why there are complaints about them. Few tricks..Use your great detection to spot...spotting wins....don't cap early, skirt the edges of caps until the enemy positions are known...… don't use the white indicator for your torps...ever. If you have a potato in your sites send the torps where you would go if you were him, if he is potato.. you can get him the next time. Stay in open water.. getting in the islands and channels blocks your visibility and that's when the hydro and radar monsters will kill you.

I cannot count how many times I have used my Shima to punch through to the enemy backside and simply herd 3-5 ships to the edge of the map. Many times I miss the torps but by spotting the rest of the team wipes them out. Its hard to not want to cap.... but doing so early is death.

Sweetsie, while spotting is definitely worth doing, particularly between torpedo attacks, playing a DD for the sake of spotting for its own sake is BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING!!!  People play this game to fight enemy ships, not spot the enemy so that every ELSE can have fun shooting up the enemy.

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17 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Sweetsie, while spotting is definitely worth doing, particularly between torpedo attacks, playing a DD for the sake of spotting for its own sake is BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING!!!  People play this game to fight enemy ships, not spot the enemy so that every ELSE can have fun shooting up the enemy.

now for part two, with 15 sledgehammer 24k torps you still get plenty of damage at a range of 12k... I am number one on the leader often when I play it I still get 100k damage unless its crap shoot radar game. But if its a one to two radar game I I usually do very well. Its like playing a BB some bbs shoot as soon as they can, others wait and wait for those monster shots, Shima is all about waiting for your opportunity and staying alive.

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3 hours ago, Crucis said:

@Skyfaller

I agree with some of your conceptual points, but not with your Long Lance suggestions.  I don't think that they'd be a good fit for this game, at all.

I found it interesting that you say that the IJN torps didn't have torpex, and you suggest that IJN torps maybe shouldn't be so powerful.  If this is true, this could be the basis for some significant changes for IJN torps.  The devs could reduce their base damage and improve them in other areas.  IIRC, one of the things that gets mentioned by devs often is how much damage IJN torps do as the reason they're ambivalent about improving them in other areas.  So, IF IJN torp damage was reduced, then they could make improvements in other areas.  Maybe reduce IJN torp damage by about 25% to 33% but at the same time reduce their detection ranges considerably.

Just a thought...

 

That's exactly what i'm doing in my suggestion. Even 12k damage torps, after torp bulge reduction, will still pull a huge amount of damage into a BB if more than 3 torps hit. The problem NOW is, getting more than 1 torp to hit because of the silly seen-from-orbit detection ranges.

...on torps which historically were literally invisible since they left ZERO wake.

However just reducing damage and tweaking detection range does not cut it. All it does is make the torps no different than other nations. The whole point of having a national flavor is for it to be unique. Thus you make IJN torps have the longest reload timers, the slowest torpedoes and the lowest damage torpedoes... but it gets the absolute longest range and lowest torp detect range. For the gunboats line it gets the opposite... fastest reload, brutally low damage, fastest torpedo speed and average to short torpedo range. Once again, with these torps you'd need multiple hits just to sink a DD.

By doing these two extremes it provides two benefits:

1- It goes perfectly along with IJN ship design and military doctrine: unique  extremes. 'Burning love' you know!

2- It does not interfere with other national flavors now or in the future.

 

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3 hours ago, Crucis said:

Sweetsie, while spotting is definitely worth doing, particularly between torpedo attacks, playing a DD for the sake of spotting for its own sake is BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING!!!  People play this game to fight enemy ships, not spot the enemy so that every ELSE can have fun shooting up the enemy.

Also, the problem is that spotting is not rewarded. I play shima exclusively with 20km torps and I spot the entire enemy team practically the whole battle.. because I flank from the start and get behind them.

Problem is, despite all that spotting and benefiting the team... I get nothing for it. Despite my team slaying half of their battle line early because of my spotting I get nothing. Despite my torps I toss to flush them out of hiding behind islands, despite the torps I toss forcing their BBs to expose their citadels to green BBs... I get nothing.

Only capping and getting kills gives rewards. Not even total damage, just kills. Its absurd to see a shima end a battle with 4 kills and less than 50k damage and still make more xp and credits than a shima with 100k+ damage no kills no caps and which spotted the entire red team most of the battle.

Spotting mechanics and awards are FUBAR. They should give spotting rewards by having the first ship to spot an unspotted ship get 'tagged' as the one that is spotting it..even if seconds or minute later he ends up NOT being the closest ship to that red ship. The tag remains in place for as long as your ship has that red ship within its detection range. Every X seconds you are a tagged spotter you should get as much reward for spotting as landing 500 dmg to a ship. If the ship you tagging dies you should get half the xp and credits than the one getting the kill gets.

 

3 hours ago, Sweetsie said:

Personally,  I think people play them incorrectly and that's why there are complaints about them

I strongly disagree with this. The problem is shima was nerfed into a role it was never designed to be used in. Worse still, the vodkasipping devs purposely did not adjust OTHER things on the ship to counteract the massive clusterfark they inflicted on it.  

They literally pushed it well inside gun range of other DDs and cruisers ... a ship with the lowest HP and absolutely hopeless gun rotation and reload rate. It was a ship that did not even have the best stealth a Gearing had identical stealth up until recently... and when they buffed Shima stealth (from 5.9 to 5.6 a laughable and practically useless buff) it didn't take them long to take it away.. for Gearing will soon have even BETTER stealth than Shima with the tier X upgrade (5.4km).

Then we have the new IJN DD line coming in.. which literally makes the old line obsolete. Haragumo will use the same 12km torps Shima uses... and has monstrous guns and hitpoints. Its stealth may be not as good as shima's but it still is lower than all other DDs except Gearing.

For all purposes, that ship makes all DDs, even Khabarovsk, lose their niche and national flavor. It has everything except AA (yay Grozovoi!) and DW torp ones. Even Shima.. for Haragumo's torp reloader allows it to toss almost as many torps as shima and a DD rarely fires more than 5 salvos per battle average.

This new line makes no sense at all. My suggested line at least makes it a great gunboat challenging the Khab and its light torpedoes removes it from being a torp-threat to BBs and most cruisers.  

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I understand the torpedo detection ranges, they are packing the most powerful torpedos typically in their tiers.

That being said powerful means squat if they don't land.

I think an interesting thing they could toy with that hasn't been mentioned is tightening up their torpedo spread.

At high tiers the spreads are especially wide.  You could look at it as a "dispersion" buff.

Keep their detection ranges and damage the same, tighten the spreads by say 25% or so.

Bad torpedo detection range or not, tighter spreads aimed well are harder to thread, especially for hight tier fat ships.

Edited by Aeries1

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23 minutes ago, Skyfaller said:

 

 

I strongly disagree with this. The problem is shima was nerfed into a role it was never designed to be used in. Worse still, the vodkasipping devs purposely did not adjust OTHER things on the ship to counteract the massive clusterfark they inflicted on it.  

They literally pushed it well inside gun range of other DDs and cruisers ... a ship with the lowest HP and absolutely hopeless gun rotation and reload rate. It was a ship that did not even have the best stealth a Gearing had identical stealth up until recently... and when they buffed Shima stealth (from 5.9 to 5.6 a laughable and practically useless buff) it didn't take them long to take it away.. for Gearing will soon have even BETTER stealth than Shima with the tier X upgrade (5.4km).

Then we have the new IJN DD line coming in.. which literally makes the old line obsolete. Haragumo will use the same 12km torps Shima uses... and has monstrous guns and hitpoints. Its stealth may be not as good as shima's but it still is lower than all other DDs except Gearing.

For all purposes, that ship makes all DDs, even Khabarovsk, lose their niche and national flavor. It has everything except AA (yay Grozovoi!) and DW torp ones. Even Shima.. for Haragumo's torp reloader allows it to toss almost as many torps as shima and a DD rarely fires more than 5 salvos per battle average.

This new line makes no sense at all. My suggested line at least makes it a great gunboat challenging the Khab and its light torpedoes removes it from being a torp-threat to BBs and most cruisers.  

you are my perfect example...….You have no clue ho to play this ship. comparing guns is and immediate tell that you don't know how to play it. Unless a ship is 2k or less health, the Shima should never ever fire her guns. If you allow yourself to get in a gun fight you have failed the Shima. the Shima will not fail you if you know how to play her.

Its a torp boat for gods sakes.... 

 

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5 hours ago, Crucis said:

Sweetsie, while spotting is definitely worth doing, particularly between torpedo attacks, playing a DD for the sake of spotting for its own sake is BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING!!!  People play this game to fight enemy ships, not spot the enemy so that every ELSE can have fun shooting up the enemy.

Indeed and besides helping to win the battle its worthless, i got 274,462 K spotting damage in one battle, its worthless.

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Just because they arent the strongest doenst mean they are weak. Im grinding the IJN DD line, currently at Yugumo and i think they were good ships so far. Kind tricky to use but good ships overall. Great concealment values, lots of torps that hit really hard and ok guns.

 

Also, even not being the strongest they are some of the most popular ships in their tier. Why would WG buff ships that are already popular?

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1 hour ago, Skyfaller said:

Also, the problem is that spotting is not rewarded. I play shima exclusively with 20km torps and I spot the entire enemy team practically the whole battle.. because I flank from the start and get behind them.

 

My friend. delete your post. Anyone that plays with 20k torps... well you will see. You play the Shima wrong. as I said before. If 100 people respond you will not get 5 of them that play with 20 torps. Please my man, trust me, I know what I am talking about.

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19 minutes ago, Final8ty said:

Indeed and besides helping to win the battle its worthless, i got 274,462 K spotting damage in one battle, its worthless.

Not quite sure if you're being sarcastic or not.  I'd think that from a team perspective, 274k spotting damage would be very valuable to the team.  But even if it was well rewarded with XP and credits, spotting for spotting's sake would still be BORRRRRRING.  Like I said before, people play the game to fire guns and launch torps, etc. at enemy ships, not to do nothing but spot so that team mates can have all the fun.

 

Hey, if spotting damage was well rewarded, it might encourage DD players to care more about spotting.  But in the long run, I don't think that it'd have a large effect, simply because I believe people want to be doing damage to the enemy themselves, not just help others do it.

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17 minutes ago, Crucis said:

Not quite sure if you're being sarcastic or not.  I'd think that from a team perspective, 274k spotting damage would be very valuable to the team. 

Yes to the team and not me, i made negative credits, i can be AFK and still get a win and negative credits only that the other way takes 100x more effort for the same rewards, everyone else benefited but me.

And seeing as the team can not see your spotting damage you are never thanked for it and sometimes accused of not doing my job even with near 200k spotting damage in some battles.

DDS are not a charity to benefit everyone but themselves. 

Edited by Final8ty

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the problem with IJN DDs is that they are not PA DDs.

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