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GreyFox78659

The great submarine debate

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OP still has yet to answer my argument...

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4 hours ago, GreyFox78659 said:

But first attempts to shout the discussion down or insult ideas on either side will result in my ignoring you

Translation: "If you don't agree with me or make good points as to why subs wouldn't fit in the game, i'm ignoring you"

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2 minutes ago, tcbaker777 said:

Translation: "If you don't agree with me or make good points as to why subs wouldn't fit in the game, i'm ignoring you"

In short: "I can't rebut the people with counterarguments so I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut."

Well, whatever works for OP, lol.

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14 minutes ago, dionkraft said:

I'm with you on that argument to let you know.  Its ALL about the MONEY and if WOW see $DOLLAR SIGNS$ they will go for it. In the meanwhile WOW is busy on the CV retrofit which is secret like no ones business.  SUBS on the other hand...they have to be considering but as always pretty tight lipped.  I noticed that WarThunder has a Nuclear Submarine test program - did you hear?    Just stumbled on it yesterday.    Don't know why there is such a fear of puny SUBS...they will be in the minority and as far as stats will be a lethal as a random detonation in my book.  But I guess some don't even see it that way as SUBS will be as many as CV's in all probability in a match. But those arguments don't matter eh?   Thats alright..we will continue to promote SUBS. 

That is what got this started either WG is really bad at business. 

Or this CV thing is a cover for something else. 

CVs are well past cut your losses phase in a business sense. Submarines are huge waist of opportunity to make money while not spending as much. Remember they modeled one for April fools! Yes it’s that easy to model a submarine over a CV.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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4 minutes ago, Blorgh2017 said:

In short: "I can't rebut the people with counterarguments so I'm just gonna keep my mouth shut."

Well, whatever works for OP, lol.

ive seen some hard-headed people in my years on this planet, but this guy is something else

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2 hours ago, Turbotush said:

I bet I have spent more money on this game then any 5 of you combined, the day they add subs, I'm gone. 

I have spent a fair amount as well and if subs are added I am also gone.  I don't imagine that we're the only two either.

2 hours ago, GreyFox78659 said:

If they Subs and six start playing then you have not persuaded them. They have your money.

Also the the DEVS SAID NO! Logic in a nut shell.

No Subs = devs will never break a promise to make a buck

Subs coming = devs will break a promise to make a buck if it looks like the money is worth it.

See the problem with that logic of NEVER SUBS?

 

Six well paying players.  It would take many more than six average players to replace the revenue they have gotten from me, let alone @Turbotush

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18 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Right now we are in the end game of the debate where the losing side is attempting to look larger in an attempt at damage control. While at the same time drowning out the winning sides arguments, so as not to lose more supporters for keeping things as they are with NO SUBS.

Problem is the more I start these topics the support I find for adding subs.

Well at least you admit you are losing the "debate."

Oh... you weren't talking about your side...

The support of the minority.

How about this: Address some actual concerns that were brought up. Submarines are slow, and likely would not engage in combat, not once, when the game ends. Submarines as a result, would cause players to lose credits, and gain very little experience in return, heck, that's if the game even registers them as having been active (not being active results in 0 credits and 0 experience, and still require paying base service cost).

The Speed, and the method of aim, will make submarine play more frustrating, which is why majority of the WoWS community does not want submarines in the game. Face it, the side you claim is losing and "making themselves look larger" is most certainly larger than you want to believe. YOU are in the minority, not the majority.

I personally would LOVE to see submarines in the game. But the difference between you and I, is that I'm not delusional.

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1 hour ago, Helstrem said:

I have spent a fair amount as well and if subs are added I am also gone.  I don't imagine that we're the only two either.

Six well paying players.  It would take many more than six average players to replace the revenue they have gotten from me, let alone @Turbotush

Again you spent your money. Games need new players  Enjoying the game to keep profitable. Right now CV fiasco isn’t helping that. Also BTW sub players much easier to teach.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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2 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Again you spent your money. Hanes need new Enjoying the game to keep profitable. Right now CV fiasco isn’t help that. Also BTW sub players much easier to teach.

People who have spent money are vastly more likely to spend money in the future than the average new player.  WG wouldn't be losing the money we've spent, they'd be losing players that have a demonstrated willingness to spend money on future content.  In free-to-play games most players don't pay a single dime.  The challenge is to get them to spend that dime, once they have broken that barrier between absolutely not spending to considering it on things they want the company can make money.  The last thing such a company wants to do is lose players who have been spending money.

You are also positing that there are significant numbers of potential players who are not players because WoWS does not have submarines, facts not in evidence.

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3 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

That is what got this started either WG is really bad at business. 

Or this CV thing is a cover for something else. 

CVs are well past cut your losses phase in a business sense. Submarines are huge waist of opportunity to make money while not spending as much. Remember they modeled one for April fools! Yes it’s that easy to model a submarine over a CV.

Considering how integrated CVs are into the game, and the amount of effort being expended on fixing them, it wouldn't even be remotely close to cost-effective to cut them out, especially as that would entirely remove one of the major balance metrics of the game - Anti-Aircraft Firepower.

 

Submarines would just be far more costly to create, and would requite a fundamental overhaul of the entire game engine seeing as underwater isn't even modeled, and one would have to rebalance entire lines based on their ability to hunt and counter submarines. This is not to mention the facts that not all submarines look alike, so you're adding in a massive number of new models, and animations for said models. WG has modeled entire battleships and carriers for April Fools, so their ability to model a submarine for it is of no significance. Heck, they've even put out promotional material for mechanized dolphins.

 

Submarines simply do not fit into the hierarchy of WoWs. This game is centered around a tactical battle, a fleet engagement. This is not the kind of situation submarines were meant to or even able to operate in. They were strategic weapons, ambushers and stalkers of defenseless ships. They did not and could not operate in fleet battles, as the action moved far to rapidly for them. This would be true in WoWs as well. No submarine is going to be able to cross the map in a timely manner to defend a cap, it's only option is to wait and hope that someone blunders across their path and doesn't also dodge their first spread of torpedoes. It would be boring to play as, and frustrating to play against. That's about the worst combination you can put together in a game.

 

It would be a massive price tag to throw away CVs, moreso to add submarines, and you'd probably not get much in return because they'd be bloody awful to play. If you want submarine gameplay, go play Silent Hunter III, and get a real and enjoyable experience out of it. WoWs just isn't built in a way that would ever be comfortable for submarines.

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11 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

Well at least you admit you are losing the "debate."

Oh... you weren't talking about your side...

The support of the minority.

How about this: Address some actual concerns that were brought up. Submarines are slow, and likely would not engage in combat, not once, when the game ends. Submarines as a result, would cause players to lose credits, and gain very little experience in return, heck, that's if the game even registers them as having been active (not being active results in 0 credits and 0 experience, and still require paying base service cost).

The Speed, and the method of aim, will make submarine play more frustrating, which is why majority of the WoWS community does not want submarines in the game. Face it, the side you claim is losing and "making themselves look larger" is most certainly larger than you want to believe. YOU are in the minority, not the majority.

I personally would LOVE to see submarines in the game. But the difference between you and I, is that I'm not delusional.

 

11 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

Well at least you admit you are losing the "debate."

Oh... you weren't talking about your side...

The support of the minority.

How about this: Address some actual concerns that were brought up. Submarines are slow, and likely would not engage in combat, not once, when the game ends. Submarines as a result, would cause players to lose credits, and gain very little experience in return, heck, that's if the game even registers them as having been active (not being active results in 0 credits and 0 experience, and still require paying base service cost).

The Speed, and the method of aim, will make submarine play more frustrating, which is why majority of the WoWS community does not want submarines in the game. Face it, the side you claim is losing and "making themselves look larger" is most certainly larger than you want to believe. YOU are in the minority, not the majority.

I personally would LOVE to see submarines in the game. But the difference between you and I, is that I'm not delusional.

Concern you brought up 

1 they are slow 20 knots on surface 8 knots under water.

20 knots is The Average BB speed 8 knots is well above the average speed of DD in Smoke care guess the average speed a of destroyer in smoke?

2 Subs won’t engage making thing boring. 

One Carrier run of planes and refuse to engage all the time. DDs the are last survivors same. So the problem already exists. But submarines are the slowest class so once they are tracked they will need a teammate to assist to win the engagement or get a lucky shot off or they will run out of air and surface and be sunk.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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2 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

20 knots is The Average BB

21, and they only get faster as the tiers go up

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5 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

20 knots is The Average BB speed

At Tier III perhaps.  Tier IV average speed is faster than 21 knots.  Tier VII, the last tier with a 21 knot BB, has a far higher average BB speed.  The Yamato at Tier X does 27 knots and is the slowest Tier X BB.  It is also slower than any other Tier VIII+ BB except Musashi.

Stop comparing prospective Tier X submarines to Tier III BBs to make their speed seem more acceptable.

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Just now, GreyFox78659 said:

 

Concern you brought up 

1 they are slow 20 knots on surface 8 knots under water.

20 knots is The Average BB speed 8 knots is well above the average speed of DD in Smoke care guess the average speed a of destroyer in smoke?

2 Subs won’t engage making thing boring. 

One Carrier run of planes and refuse to engage all the time. DDs the are last survivors same. So the problem already exists. But submarines are the slowest class so once they are tracked they will need a teammate to assist to win the engagement or get a luck shot off they will run out of air and surface and be sunk.

 

  1. 20 knots average BB speed...? Sure, maybe at tier V and below, but most BBs at tier V+ make well above that, and everything at tier VIII+ can do at least 27.5-28 knots, most going about 30 knots. As for DDs in smoke - what's your point? A DD in smoke can also spam out HE, and be of use... and also sprint out of there if needed  at 35+ knots.
  2. A carrier out of aircraft usually means it has been heavily involved the whole game, and it's power has been expended. It's rather similar to how a surface combatant has been whittled down to such little health that they can't effectively fight. It happens, if you've been fighting the whole time. A submarine's ability to engage is limited because it can't make 10 knots below the surface, and if it surfaces to make up to 20 knots, a single shot will end it - and crash diving is too slow, even with the game's acceleration, to have a viable escape route. Their mobility is so limited that they rely on their opponents to come to them, can cannot rapidly relocate it they do. Their ability to engage is also limited because they only have their torpedoes, and that's all - so quite a length reload. A destroyer is an entirely difference situation, because even with low health - between your stealth, and most importantly, your speed and thus mobility -  you have the option to engage and disengage as you wish, allowing you to harass even superior enemies, although they can still fire back making it risky. You can race around and get caps, or hunt down and kill isolated and low-health targets. These are options that do not exist for something as slow as a submarine. 

 

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45 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Right now we are in the end game of the debate where the losing side is attempting to look larger in an attempt at damage control. While at the same time drowning out the winning sides arguments, so as not to lose more supporters for keeping things as they are with NO SUBS.

Problem is the more I start these topics the support I find for adding subs.

A breathtaking lack of self-awareness, you've got there.

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1 minute ago, GreyFox78659 said:

 

Concern you brought up

1 they are slow 20 knots on surface 8 knots under water.

20 knots is The Average BB speed 8 knots is well above the average speed of DD in Smoke care guess the average speed a of destroyer in smoke?

2 Subs won’t engage making thing boring.

One Carrier run of planes and refuse to engage all the time. DDs the are last survivors same. So the problem already exists. But submarines are the slowest class so once they are tracked they will need a teammate to assist to win the engagement or get a luck shot off they will run out of air and surface and be sunk.

Submarines not engaging because of their speed, versus reasons other ships do not engage... comparing potatoes and tomatoes there pal.

20 knots IS NOT THE AVERAGE SPEED OF BBs

Let's look at tier 10 battleships real quick:

Yamato: 27 knots
Montana: 30 knots
Großer Kurfürst: 30 knots
Conqueror:  29.5 knots
République: 30 knots

Average Tier 10 speed: 29.3 knots

Fastest Submarine: 1-201 surface speed 15.75 knots, 19 knots submerged...
Second Fastest: Type XXI surface speed 15.5 knots, 17.2 knots submerged...


Carrier running out of planes... the carrier literally lost its main mode of attack... sure, the carrier can engage with its secondaries, but why? what's the point? What if the CV's team is winning, and him running in secondaries booming, can cause a loss?

Last surviving DD not engaging? what reason? Is the DD likely to win so long as it stays alive?

Submarines being unable to engage because all other ships are capable of out running them... gee, that is totally like all other reasons ships refuse to engage.

Yep, a DD is so slow, that it is unable to engage at all. CVs are so slow, it is unable to engage.

OH, and let's not forget friendly fire, torpedoes are the number one cause of friendly damage... submarine's primary armament is literally torpedoes... All friendly ships are able to out run you, and get in your firing path... preventing torpedo launch, because don't want to hit a friendly. YES, comparing the reasons a submarine is unable to engage, and other ships willfully not engaging is totally a fair comparison... NOT!

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Reasons not to add subs
 

  1. It would require reworking the entire game engine just to make them fit
  2. It would require a complete rebalancing of all ships to include ASW warfare
  3. Subs just don't have a place in the game as stealth torpedo boats are already a thing
  4. Subs would not be viable with out massively buffing their speed, which would basically just turn them into an inferior/superior version of a torp based DD.
  5.  I fail to see how submarines would be fun to play.  Go play a DD, limit yourself to only using 1/4 throttle and never fire your guns under any circumstances.  Do you really think that play style would magically be fun if you could hypothetically sail a few kilometers closer to the enemy with out being spotted?  *And god forbid if you get hydroed   
Edited by yashma
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18 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

20 knots is The Average BB

Please list me any Battleship at Tier 4 or higher which goes 20kn or less with only the modified propulsion, but without the Sierra Mike signal. 

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For all those interested;

 

I just did the math. The Average Top Speed of a Battleship in WoWs, discounting ARP ships, is 26.1 knots

This is strongly influenced by the USN BB line, however, because of the standard types. Discounting All USN BBs, this average is 26.6 knots.

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1 minute ago, Counter_Gambit said:

Submarines not engaging because of their speed, versus reasons other ships do not engage... comparing potatoes and tomatoes there pal.

20 knots IS NOT THE AVERAGE SPEED OF BBs

Let's look at tier 10 battleships real quick:

Yamato: 27 knots
Montana: 30 knots
Großer Kurfürst: 30 knots
Conqueror:  29.5 knots
République: 30 knots

Average Tier 10 speed: 29.3 knots

Fastest Submarine: 1-201 surface speed 15.75 knots, 19 knots submerged...
Second Fastest: Type XXI surface speed 15.5 knots, 17.2 knots submerged...


Carrier running out of planes... the carrier literally lost its main mode of attack... sure, the carrier can engage with its secondaries, but why? what's the point? What if the CV's team is winning, and him running in secondaries booming, can cause a loss?

Last surviving DD not engaging? what reason? Is the DD likely to win so long as it stays alive?

Submarines being unable to engage because all other ships are capable of out running them... gee, that is totally like all other reasons ships refuse to engage.

Yep, a DD is so slow, that it is unable to engage at all. CVs are so slow, it is unable to engage.

OH, and let's not forget friendly fire, torpedoes are the number one cause of friendly damage... submarine's primary armament is literally torpedoes... All friendly ships are able to out run you, and get in your firing path... preventing torpedo launch, because don't want to hit a friendly. YES, comparing the reasons a submarine is unable to engage, and other ships willfully not engaging is totally a fair comparison... NOT!

Gato class 21 knots surface 

8 knots submerged. 

Sorry pulling late War high speed BBs for your argument is disingenuous. Standard T4-T7 USN BB 21 knots. 

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5 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Gato class 21 knots surface 

8 knots submerged. 

Sorry pulling late War high speed BBs for your argument is disingenuous. Standard T4-T7 USN BB 21 knots. 

And the USN BBs are the slowest ships in the game. Averaging every BB speed in the game still gets you at over 26 knots.

  • The Japanese tier 4-7 do 24.5 knots at a minimum (Fuso).
  • Germany, 23 knots minimum on the tier IV, 24 on the tier V, 25 knots for tier VI, 32 knots for tier VII.
  • Britain, tier IV - VII is 22 knots, 22.5 knots, 23.5 knots, 28 knots.
  • France, 21 knots, 21 knots, 29.5 knots, 27 knots.

So unless your plan with submarines is to specifically nerf the USN standard-types... your argument isn't doing you very many favors.

 

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2 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Gato class 21 knots surface

8 knots submerged.

Sorry pulling late War high speed BBs for your argument is disingenuous. Standard T4-T7 USN BB 21 knots.

Oh no, using tier 10 ships, and comparing their speeds to the likely tier 10 submarines... how disingenuous of me.

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15 minutes ago, GreyFox78659 said:

Gato class 21 knots surface 

8 knots submerged. 

Sorry pulling late War high speed BBs for your argument is disingenuous. Standard T4-T7 USN BB 21 knots. 

First Gato class vessel was laid down in 1940.

First North Carolina class vessel got laid down in 1937.

Oops...

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16 minutes ago, Phoenix_jz said:

And the USN BBs are the slowest ships in the game. Averaging every BB speed in the game still gets you at over 26 knots.

  • The Japanese tier 4-7 do 24.5 knots at a minimum (Fuso).
  • Germany, 23 knots minimum on the tier IV, 24 on the tier V, 25 knots for tier VI, 32 knots for tier VII.
  • Britain, tier IV - VII is 22 knots, 22.5 knots, 23.5 knots, 28 knots.
  • France, 21 knots, 21 knots, 29.5 knots, 27 knots.

So unless your plan with submarines is to specifically nerf the USN standard-types... your argument isn't doing you very many favors.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Counter_Gambit said:

Oh no, using tier 10 ships, and comparing their speeds to the likely tier 10 submarines... how disingenuous of me.

Yes, also should note underwater endurance of a Type XXI was the best. So yes trading surface speed for underwater time.

Also none of the stats for BBs aren’t in anyway realistic. Heck most of those were never built. Why should stats be realistic for subs and not BBs? BTW type XXI was built.

That is another problem with the argument against subs a lot of the ships used to berate them were never built.

Edited by GreyFox78659

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I can SEE this now....WOW will have a consumable which will ALLOW 2x speed under water for 60 seconds just like surface ships if they have that option !   Also add in Torpedo Boost like some select DD's do.  man I am starting to think like WOW now!   

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