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evilleMonkeigh

"I had no support!" The Potatoes Lament

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"I had no support!"  "Camping cowards" etc - this is the most common complaint in chat. I see it in about half my games.  However, I've never seen a purple-clan player say it.  Curious, I checked stats: the last 5 times, it was all 48% or lower players complaining about no support.

Each time, they died ~5 minutes into the match. 

Is "I had no support" a valid complaint? Do they have a right to expect support? Is it even reasonable to expect support?

My theory is that good players seldom complain about "support" as they, quite reasonably, do not expect it.

Q: Would a good player stake a plan/tactic and the survival of his ship on the possibility of co-operation of random strangers who don't necessarily care about/agree with his plan or the survival of his pixel bote? 

Q: Would a good player rely on an assumption?  - that they may support him - if it is not based on evidence. I.e. do people consistently support a push into cap? Or are they betting against extensive past experience?

Q: If a person types "C?" in chat, and another goes "Wilco!"- would a good player take this as explicit consent they are with you to the death, come what may? Given perhaps most the enemy team was unspotted at the time? Or was it more a general agreement to head in the direction of C?

Q: Wouldn't a good player KNOW what sort of support to expect (ie. by looking at the minimap) - how many and where his allies are, which way their ships are facing - anyway - and be able to react accordingly?

Q: If, say a BB player pushes into cap early, are his team mates more likely to presume he is a canny tactical player or an impatient 13-year-old yolo-er? If the latter, is it reasonable to expect them to risk their ship to support such a player?

Q: Is it possible a good player may retreat if needed (i.e. enemies suddenly revealed to outnumber you 2:1, or kiting is effective for damage dealing) and do not regard a cap as a "deathmatch arena" to be won at all costs but perhaps a zone to kill the enemies it attracts?

Q: Would a good player be silly to expect ANY support or presume it is a given - except by his own clan-mates or friends on voice comms?

TL:DR

While passive play can be boring/frustrating, my theory is:

Bad players presume support from those with no stake in their success or survival, who have not agreed to an explicit plan.  They then whine about something that experience should have taught them is unlikely or that they could discern for themselves from the minimap.

Good players KNOW not to expect support (except by clan mates) or if evident by the minimap. They don't complain - they plan and play accordingly.

 

 

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Re: TL;DR - I always put mine at the start of the post.

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I like your rant, but I disagree.

I think it is reasonable to expect some support.

Its unfair to label someone a tater if he's trying hard, taking chances, and making a difference solely because his teammates aren't willing to commit.

Good players KNOW stuff, okay I agree.

But sometimes that one guy, out there on fire, facing torps, desperately juking is willing to go in and take the risk.

He makes all the difference in the world when it come together.

I, for one, salute you one guy.

giphy.gif
 

Edited by Gerbertz
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I agree with this. Good players know what their team is capable of. (If anything they underrate their teams) Learning when to push was one of the hardest things for me to learn when I was playing. Luckily for myself, I never pinned it on my team, but on my own incompetance.

Players that blame the team won't learn.

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I think it is reasonable to expect some support.

Is it reasonable? Is it based on past experience or any evidence? I.e. do your pushes consistently get supported? Heck, even 50/50?
Why should you expect support from random strangers who have little to no stake in your ship or your plan?
Shouldn't players be able to know.

Quote

Its unfair to label someone a tater if he's trying hard, taking chances, and making a difference solely because his teammates aren't willing to commit.

No, it's fair enough to label them as having poor minimap awareness, patience and calculation of probability.

Quote

 

But sometimes that one guy, out there on fire, facing torps, desperately juking is willing to go in and take the risk.

He makes all the difference in the world when it come together.

 

The problem is, it comes together a tiny proportion of the time. The majority of the time, he is on fire, dies to torps, and sinks. Team is 100pts and a ship down, hasn't even secured cap, he has done little/no damage, and he then complains to his team in chat for the rest of the game.

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"I had no support!" is the theme song of yoloing potatoes, rushing out, ignoring the minimap and waltzing right into half the enemy team, then exploding without doing anything of use.

"Stupid camping battleships" is the B-side of that same theme song, pointing at ships that are significantly slower than aforementioned potato and have been moving at full speed, but got left in the dust by the enterprising potato in his yolo-mobile.

"Well at least I'm trying instead of camping" is the successful follow-up to "I had no support!" sung by people who believe that yoloing straight into the enemy team at the second minute in the game and ignoring the minimap is "trying" and / or in any way useful.

"I play for fun so shut up" is also a hit song, usually sung by people who drive down the middle on two brothers at battle start, get horrifically murdered and then remain strangely silent when asked how much 'fun' they actually had, just now.

But the worst thing is ...

Look at what these crying yolo'ers are driving. 75% of the time it's a support ship. A squishy cruiser, a gunboat DD, something fast and soft, and often low tier, too. They expect the team to support them, when they are the support.

Mind you, the only comment her that can, from time to time, have some merit, is the 'camping battleships' one, but then it's not just battleships that do that. I'm a very aggressive player, and sometimes when I find myself leading the charge in what is literally the slowest thing on the map, I do feel like some people are less aware than they could be.

<Edit> "Why didn't you support me?" is a question I would answer with "Why did you deserve my support more than anyone else on the team, according to you?" It's not like we just sit there with our thumbs up our back side enjoying self love behind a rock while you're off yoloing. Chances are that while you're off to suicide by red team, racing away from the entirety of the green team, I'm shooting at whatever you are lighting up. However, reload cycles are a thing, I usually can't magically make red ships go away at a mere click, and potatoes are usually too blind to see my supporting fire, and believe that 'support' means 'drive up right behind you at less than 2km distance'.

Another question I would ask the people who cry about no support most is "How often do you give support to others, instead of expecting it?" Support is something you give, not something you demand.

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24 minutes ago, evilleMonkeigh said:

Is it reasonable? Is it based on past experience or any evidence? I.e. do your pushes consistently get supported? Heck, even 50/50?
Why should you expect support from random strangers who have little to no stake in your ship or your plan?
Shouldn't players be able to know.

No, it's fair enough to label them as having poor minimap awareness, patience and calculation of probability.

The problem is, it comes together a tiny proportion of the time. The majority of the time, he is on fire, dies to torps, and sinks. Team is 100pts and a ship down, hasn't even secured cap, he has done little/no damage, and he then complains to his team in chat for the rest of the game.

Well, when you put it that way..

cheers!

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not like we just sit there with our thumbs up our back side enjoying self love behind a rock while you're off yoloing.

You haven't driven an Atlanta much? :Smile-_tongue:

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It’s not the people who don’t offer support to the Yolo rushers who are the problem.

Its the people who, having hung back for half the game, accomplishing little, refuse to support any effort to cap, turn a flank, or basically do anything other than hang out and wait for the clock to run out.

The never-pushers are just as bad as the Yolo rushers.  There’s not a whisker of quality difference between the two.

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8 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

It’s not the people who don’t offer support to the Yolo rushers who are the problem.

Its the people who, having hung back for half the game, accomplishing little, refuse to support any effort to cap, turn a flank, or basically do anything other than hang out and wait for the clock to run out.

The never-pushers are just as bad as the Yolo rushers.  There’s not a whisker of quality difference between the two.

This is also a good point.

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Here's the thing from my point of view - it is a team game, so there should be at least the most basic level of support. And I have admittedly lost my temper in chat and made usually a single comment. However, It's not like I see 5 ships at map start by me and assume they are going say, A with me It's when my 28 knot BB, getting close to AA, has two nearby cruisers, a DD that for some reason may be falling back from cap at the moment, and 2 more BB's are right there. Get engaged by sometimes a smaller force - and then they runaway. As Lert says I understand that BB's are slower, lord knows I've been yelled at when my game loaded 20 seconds late and my top speed is maybe 20 knots. I even understand some BB's have armour that's not very strong and need to stay further back. But there's a difference between "I'm slow to the fight" and "My armour means I need to sit a bit further back" and BB's that are sitting at their max gun rage the entire battle scoring at best the occasional hit. Same goes for especially IJN DD's that even if there is no radar and the enemy DD is dead, are say, 8 km behind my BB launching torps at the enemy, ones I usually have to dodge. Me saying it is usually an outburst of frustration, partially because I'm a more aggressive player, why of non CV's German BB's are my most played, and while  I understand a certain level of passive play for saftey, it feels like I get teams that are overly passive. Teams where the enemy starts with/gets most of the caps early and now we have to play offense but no one will. DD's running cause of BB AP and Radar. Cruiisers running because of BB AP crushing them. BB's running because of fire and occasional torps. I had a tier 10 match where NO ONE captured a point, or even tried to contest them or spot the enemy team, with CV's unable to spot thanks to AA ships blanketing the caps/entire map center behind islands, for over 10 minutes. With super sporadic gun fire. It's the over passivity that drives some of us up a wall. Thing is, if I can draw fire for my team, use myself as bait while the team rips them up as they focus on me, I'm good even if I'm sunk in the first 5 minutes if it means the team breaks through. Ideally though, I prefer not sinking. And when I've had more aggressive teams that push with me, done that much better. But when I've had 5 back to back games where I'm getting 60-80k spotting damage in a BB - tend to think there's a bit wrong and start getting frustrated that I'm spotting ships. 

As a CV player even more so because the team working together can make a huge difference. Case in point -

KG988P1.jpg

This was the other day when they had the tukey shoot mission up and I decided to lift my rule on not overly abusing strafe and manual drop. Two things the CV I faced clearly had no clue about and while he managed to get 2 ships while my fighters were down, about 6-7 minutes in, he basically had no planes left. But, his team stuck together, making attacks on them more difficult, while also destroying my team. Who despite a strong start, fell apart.

 

And I gave seen some blue/purple players cry about support too. Usually though, they are raging about the unwashed masses beneath them that aren't gods at this game about any decisions they made, or a mistake, or any number of other things. Hell, I had one BRAGGING that he was why we were going to win a match, as he took his Scharnhorst completely out of the battle, over at C, and only after the rest of the team had weakened the other ships, about 12 minutes in, finally actually got in the fight and picked off some low health ships. He was only able to out score 3 ships, two of which were early dets long before the 75% threshold was added. They may not always throw the same crap, but some of the elite players throw crap too. 

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I always start each match as a solo effort, but if I see a teammate's goals are aligned with mine then I'm happy to be his wingman.

There is no better feeling that sailing side by side in the closing stages of a victory with a brother in arms with whom you have burnt and bled, pushed, fought and won.

There's also a warm feeling in knowing that, upon the event of your death, a comrade will go on to meet the objectives and secure the win.

Team play is OP, but rare. I've lost count of the times I've supported a push only to find myself alone and surrounded when the cowards turned tail and fled at the first splash of an HE shell.

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The never-pushers are just as bad as the Yolo rushers.  There’s not a whisker of quality difference between the two.

Disagree.

A yolo rusher donates ~100 victory points to the other team when he dies. When dead he CANNOT contribute to victory. The enemy team KNOW he is not a threat - he's dead.

A never-pusher is at least points neutral and his survival means he MIGHT be helpful later, at least to attract fire while you do the heavy lifting in the endgame. He may be a potential threat to the enemies or at least attract their attention.

 

Quote

 

I always start each match as a solo effort, but if I see a teammate's goals are aligned with mine then I'm happy to be his wingman.

There is no better feeling that sailing side by side in the closing stages of a victory with a brother in arms with whom you have burnt and bled, pushed, fought and won.

There's also a warm feeling in knowing that, upon the event of your death, a comrade will go on to meet the objectives and secure the win.

Team play is OP, but rare. I've lost count of the times I've supported a push only to find myself alone and surrounded when the cowards turned tail and fled at the first splash of an HE shell.


 

I also get a warm fuzzy feeling when teamwork happens. I just think a wise player won't expect it. Nor rage when it doesn't occur the way they presume it will - especially if their past experience points to the contrary.  They presume their team mates will flee at the first HE shell and don't find themselves alone often, as they keep track of the minimap and the status of their alleged support.

Edited by evilleMonkeigh

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