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bubbleboy264

Is demolition expert bad now?

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As title says, is DE a waste of points now? I never see it reccomended anymore, I don’t understand why, I still use it a lot, did the meta change overnight? I asked a similar question in a previous thread but I want to ask it again to get more responses, I really don’t get why DE isn’t reccomended much anymore

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Demo expert is good on high fire rate ships with low fire chance. 

Ships like the Atlanta, Khabarovsk, akizuki, and other light cruisers and gunboats dds. 

It's pretty much worthless to put on low fire rate high fire chance ships like a conqueror. It's marginally better for those ships, while on the Atlanta it will give it something like 40% more fire chance. 

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5 minutes ago, bubbleboy264 said:

As title says, is DE a waste of points now? I never see it reccomended anymore, I don’t understand why, I still use it a lot, did the meta change overnight? I asked a similar question in a previous thread but I want to ask it again to get more responses, I really don’t get why DE isn’t reccomended much anymore

It is a waste on high fire chance ships in my opinion. If you have 6% chance of fire, DE is going to add 33% fire chance. If your fire chance is 35% it will only add roughly 5%. To me under 15% it is worth it above that it’s better used on something else.

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Aside from what Ducky and Belyy have said, there's also the skill(s) you might have to give up in order to get Demolition Expert. For example, on the Shimakaze, no sane player (apart from Yuro or some other god-tier player looking for laffs and/or experimental builds) would ever sacrifice Torpedo Reload Expertise in order to get it, despite the fact that the Shima's fire chance is pretty low. This is because damage-wise, Shima lives and dies by her torpedoes, since her guns (and those of most Japanese destroyers) have pretty crappy to outright abysmal gun handling and rate of fire.

On battleships, getting DE often comes at the expense of skills such as Superintendent, or even Basic Firing Training for brawler builds.

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15 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Demo expert is good on high fire rate ships with low fire chance. 

Ships like the Atlanta, Khabarovsk, akizuki, and other light cruisers and gunboats dds. 

It's pretty much worthless to put on low fire rate high fire chance ships like a conqueror. It's marginally better for those ships, while on the Atlanta it will give it something like 40% more fire chance. 

I would agree with this as an option, if the points are not better spent elsewhere

I remember when DE used to have a fire chance of 4%; with it at 2% it really is only good for high RoF ships as quoted above (and the only real benefit of the additional 2% to push the HE fire chance over a preferred threshold: like from 18% to a full 20% as an example). Imo, if there's not some better use for 3 Captain points, or because with the type of ship you are skilling the captain for no other 3 point skill is more relevant, is the only other reason you might use this skill. I tried it on Hindenburg as an example, but found that getting fires without the DE skill only decreased slightly, so was a total waste of points. 

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DE is 1 hit in 50 that causes a fire that wouldn't have caused one before.

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5 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

DE is 1 hit in 50 that causes a fire that wouldn't have caused one before.

@crzyhawk Could you please provide a citation? Because my layman's understanding was that each shell strike had an additional 2% (previously 3%, and before that originally 4% chance to start a fire). What you've stated, I've never heard before.

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When it comes to small caliber ships, I will take BFT over DE every time because of the RoF boost

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38 minutes ago, Ducky_shot said:

Demo expert is good on high fire rate ships with low fire chance. 

Ships like the Atlanta, Khabarovsk, akizuki, and other light cruisers and gunboats dds. 

It's pretty much worthless to put on low fire rate high fire chance ships like a conqueror. It's marginally better for those ships, while on the Atlanta it will give it something like 40% more fire chance. 

It is a good skill on any cruiser or DD that will be firing lots of HE but it is not the priority it used to be so get other skills that you consider important first.

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29 minutes ago, KSN said:

@crzyhawk Could you please provide a citation? Because my layman's understanding was that each shell strike had an additional 2% (previously 3%, and before that originally 4% chance to start a fire). What you've stated, I've never heard before.

2% is 2 hits in 100.  That's simplified to 1 in 50.

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1 minute ago, crzyhawk said:

2% is 2 hits in 100.  That's simplified to 1 in 50.

Ummmm....

I'll just leave this here: http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Fire

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Go ahead and leave that there.  2% is still 1 in 50.  You're going to get a bonus fire on average, 1 time in 50 hits.  If you want to spend 3 captain points on that, go for it.  from their example taking signals and DE away from the 4.82% - 2.69%.  That's about 2%.  1 hit in 50.  Just like you'd expect.  Given they are stripping flags away, in the example they provide you're getting /less/ than 2% effectively out of DE.

As an example, we can compare the chance of a single Benson high explosive shell lighting a fire on an enemy Bismarck. The Bismarck is using Hull (B) and Damage Control Modification 1, but her commander does not have Fire Prevention. The Benson commander has Demolition Expert (but not Inertia Fuse for HE Shells) and is flying both the Victor Lima and India X-Ray signals. The fire chance would be:

(0.6337) x (1 - 0.05 - 0.00) x (0.05 + 0.02 + 0.005 + 0.005 - 0.00) = 4.82% fire chance


If the Bismarck commander acquires the Fire Prevention skill, the chance would then be:

(0.6337) x (1 - 0.05 - 0.10) x (0.05 + 0.02 + 0.005 + 0.005 - 0.00) = 4.31% fire chance


If the Benson commander didn't have Demolition Expert or the signals equipped, the chance would be:

(0.6337) x (1 - 0.05 - 0.10) x (0.05 + 0.00 + 0.00 - 0.00) = 2.69% fire chance

Edited by crzyhawk

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I put iDE on all my Cruisers its a skill that ups the damage done, for me it’s a must have , well worth the3 points

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1 hour ago, Psycodiver said:

When it comes to small caliber ships, I will take BFT over DE every time because of the RoF boost

Why not both?

My Russian DD captains all have DE. It's also my next goal on my US DD captain. I rely on fire to take on BBs

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It's useful on practically all Cruisers and DDs.

There is no point in using it on BBs unless may be for secondary builds, but I still find other choices better.

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5 hours ago, HyperFish said:

Why not both?

My Russian DD captains all have DE. It's also my next goal on my US DD captain. I rely on fire to take on BBs

 

I haven't gone down the Russian tree, but with USN concealment expert and IFHE are much more important, maybe for the 17point skill....

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DE is perfect for my French BB secondary builds. :cap_rambo:

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23 hours ago, Psycodiver said:

 

I haven't gone down the Russian tree, but with USN concealment expert and IFHE are much more important, maybe for the 17point skill....

Concealment expert is a valid choice for US dd's definitely. IFHE for me is the the questionable choice, since it basically reduces your chance of fire against a slight improvement in penetration against some of the enemies you go up against.

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Would DE be useful on something like a 152mm armed cruiser? I have it specified on Budyonny to help make up some of the lost fire chance due to also taking IFHE. Does that make sense or am I wasting skill points there?

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On 6/23/2018 at 10:58 PM, bubbleboy264 said:

As title says, is DE a waste of points now? I never see it reccomended anymore, I don’t understand why, I still use it a lot, did the meta change overnight? I asked a similar question in a previous thread but I want to ask it again to get more responses, I really don’t get why DE isn’t reccomended much anymore

DE was never viable on BBs and is not as recommended for DDs anymore. Since DE was nerfed from 3% to 2%, there are just better options for DDs such as SE, SI, BFT, and RPF. In addition, there was the stealth fire nerf so DDs can not afford to be firing all game and DE doesn’t help you when you don’t shoot. Fire chance at high/top tier is reduced by pretty much 50% so losing that one percent off of DE was actually a pretty big nerf for gunboat DDs. It is why most good players will now recommend running more survivability skills over DE. 

As for cruisers, I personally still run DE on all my CAs (except mino) because your primary ammo choice is HE and you are essentially firing all game. You could make the argument against DE for the DM since you fire a healthy mix of both HE and AP. In comp however (CB/tourneys), you drop DE for those survivabilty and AA skills because that small fire chance increase means very little when everyone is focusing on one target. 

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DE is useful on basically any CR (except RN line) and Russian DDs. The 2% higher fire chance is always handy. US and IJN DDs benefit more from BFT and TAE since not meant for long-range duels, but for most part, it's the player's decision.

Secondary-savvy Bismarck/Tirpitz/GK players I can see running DE, but beyond that, it's not worth it for BBs.

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