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Lert

WG, please get Prinz Eitel Friedrich right

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As most of you know by now, the Prinz Eitel Friedrich has been announced on the WoWS facebook page. She is a Mackensen class battlecruiser that WG has given a fantasy AA refit in order to bring her in line with the other T6s.

These are the given stats:

Spoiler

Hit points – 52 300. Plating - 25 mm. Armor belt – 300 mm. Torpedo damage reduction – 27%.

Main battery - 4x2 350 mm. Firing range – 17.8 km. Maximum HE shell damage – 4000. Chance to cause fire – 27%. Maximum AP shell damage - 10500. Reload time - 24 s. 180 degree turn time - 30 s. Maximum dispersion - 241 m. HE initial velocity - 815 m/s. AP initial velocity - 815 m/s. Sigma value – 2.0.

Secondaries - 8х2 105 mm, range - 5,0 km, Maximum HE Shell Damage - 1200, Reload Time - 3,4 с. 14х1 150 mm, range - 5,0 km, Maximum HE Shell Damage - 1700, Reload Time - 7,5 с.

AA defense - 12х1 20 mm, range - 2,0 km, damage per second - 36. 8х2 37 mm, range - 3,5 km, damage per second - 21. 8х2 105 mm, range - 4,5 km, damage per second - 134.

Maximum speed - 28 kt. Turning circle radius - 800 m. Rudder shift time – 14,0 s. Surface detectability – 12,4 km. Air detectability – 12,4 km. Detectability after firing main guns in smoke – 11,0 km.

Available consumables:

Slot 1 - Damage Control Party

Slot 2 - Repair party

And this is what she looks like:

36121307_2098291370497199_69174245267918

Beautiful ship, sleek hull, brutal looking turrets, that WWI teutonic superstructure and big, no-nonsense funnels.

However, I have some concerns ...

Everything in this thread is pure speculation. I have not test driven this ship yet.

There are broadly speaking two types of battleships at tier 6, 8-gun ones and 12-guns ones. The 8-gun ones have bigger guns that can overmatch at-tier battleship plating, the 12-gun ones have smaller caliber guns that can't overmatch 25mm but have a DPM advantage. This ship ... has the worst of both worlds. Smaller caliber guns at 350mm so she can't overmatch 25mm bows, and only 8 barrels so she can't match the DPM of 12-gun ships. WG seems to be trying to address the DPM issue by giving the 350mm guns slightly inflated damage output to match the larger 356mm shells fired by other nation's 14" guns - 350mm guns 'should' have roughly 9800 ~ 9900 damage per AP shell - and using the historically projected ROF of 2.5 rpm per barrel, or a 24s reload. I'm not sure this will this be enough. She doesn't match the DPM of other at-tier 14" armed battleships, and she can't overmatch bows like the at-tier 8-gun battleships can.

To counter this problem, WG has given her 2.0 sigma and decent range, meaning that she can reach out and put warheads on foreheads, despite her German dispersion. Whether this will suffice to keep her firepower in line, I don't know.

Speed wise she's ok for her tier, 28 knots, that's plenty fast, if not fastest in tier.

Armor wise, the historical armor layout for the Mackensen class battlecruisers is unfortunately lost to history. However, since she is basically an enlarged Derfflinger built using the same technology and design dogmas, we can assume her armor will be similar. This gives us ...

lQFRdqb.png

If WG holds to this armor scheme, Prinz Eitel Friedrich will be a tough cookie indeed. A 300mm belt is slightly less than her Teutonic counterparts, but the 50mm turtleback should keep just about anything out of her citadel except long range, high angle fire, but that's where a 230mm upper belt comes into play, keeping even long range high angle fire out. Plus, the Derfflingers had a tapered waterline belt all the way up to the bow, meaning that - if WG holds to this armor scheme - bow in only a portion of her bow can be overmatched by 15" AP fire. The rest will reliably bounce even 16" shell fire, as long as it hits under a steep enough angle.

The Derfflinger herself earned the nickname 'Iron Dog' for a reason - the Royal Navy were impressed by the German battlecruiser's ability to shrug off fire and simply not sink.

My concerns about Prinz Eitel Friedrich are two fold ...

1) She might be underpowered and uncompetitive

With her main firepower lacking the DPM of 12-gun battleships and overmatch ability of other 8-gun battleships, she might simply not have the damage output to be competitive. A tough armor profile helps by giving her some staying power, but the community at large has proven themselves capable of murdering Koenigs and Bayerns, and they're no tougher than Prinz Eitel Friedrich would be, even if WG takes Derfflinger's armor profile. And that's a big if.

2) She might be overpowered and too competitive

Wait a minute, isn't that the exact opposite? Yeah. It is. But, WG has done it before. When they were developing Giulio Cesare, they took a small, plucky battleship that on paper was lacking an edge, and overtuned it into a monster by tweaking soft stats and handling. Prinz Eitel Friedrich is lacking an edge, on paper. She's tough, but similarly tough ships get sunk every day in this game. She's fast, but not so much faster than other ships as to be a speedster without compare. And her primary firepower is lacking. WG has given her very, very good concealment. A bit too good?

Maybe WG has learned from Giulio Cesare and will do whatever they can not to overtune Prinz Eitel Friedrich. In which case, they might err on the side of caution and make her weak and uncompetitive. The ship, by design, necessitates very careful balancing since it would be so easy to topple to either side of the knife edge of balance.

I for one, as a fan of German battleships, the German idea of battlecruisers (Speed + armor, sacrificing a bit of firepower) and the WWI dreadnought aesthetic, will be very interested in this ship and watching carefully how she develops.

Please WG, get this right. If you do, this will open the door for more battlecruiser designs to be implemented into this game. Derfflinger, Seydlitz, Moltke, von der Tann, the Invincible, Indefatigable and Queen Mary, Tiger and Renown - they all deserve to be in this game, and the success (or lack thereof) of Prinz Eitel Friedrich both in in-game balance and sales numbers, will pave the way for their implementation.

This makes Prinz Eitel Friedrich possibly one of the most important premium ships WG has ever implemented. Hence my concern.

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4 minutes ago, Lert said:

If WG holds to this armor scheme, Prinz Eitel Friedrich will be a tough cookie indeed.

BcTtAU7.jpg

The armor scheme has not been entirely lost, yet :Smile-_tongue:

If this picture (sorry for the poor quality, I took a photo of my screen and can‘t access the webpage atm) is true, you can expect a very squishy Battlecruiser.

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10 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

If this picture (sorry for the poor quality, I took a photo of my screen and can‘t access the webpage atm) is true, you can expect a very squishy Battlecruiser.

Indeed. Which would make me even more concerned. However, I have my doubts whether the armor profile you posted is true. For the simple reason that there's no turtleback, and the Germans loved their turtlebacks. Cruisers have it. Battleships have it. Hell, even the Derfflinger has one. But Mackensen - a ship based on Derfflinger - wouldn't?

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

Indeed. Which would make me even more concerned.

It would completely remove her tankiness, with having as little as only a 300mm belt and a 50mm bulkhead.

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As a bonus:

6EPoa6B.jpg

Prinz Eitel Friedrich (left) and the Bayern class battleship Württemberg in Hamburg, ca 1920.

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I’d love to see a Tier 6 German GC.  Lol!

But your points are well taken Lert.  

I do agree that finding the RIGHT way to start bringing in all those battlecruisers is key.  

I like your armor suggestion.

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Dunkerque is the only 8 gun low caliber example at tier 6 at the moment, albeit with  the all front gun design. In addition her HE are a viable option, which doesnt seem to be that viable with Prinz. Dunkerque however  seems pretty balanced. I feel if Prinz gets generous turret angles, has an armor scheme that is durable as you suggested and whose guns have reasonable ballistics, she can be a gudbote.

Edited by warheart1992

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With that 12.4km concealment I'm more worried about Eitel Friedrich being overpowered than her being underpowered. 12.4km is better than the majority of T6 cruisers. When taking into account the fact that Concealment Expert is a 14% bonus for BBs compared to 12% for CLs, the only same-tier cruisers that would outspot her are LeanderPerthHuanghe and Dallas. And Dallas would only do so by 400m.

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All stats aside, what a beautiful ship !

A German tier VI premium BB/BC  ? Nice.

Only one question remains. When, WG, when ?  :Smile_playing:

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1 hour ago, Lert said:

2.0 sigma and decent range, meaning that she can reach out and put warheads on foreheads, despite her German dispersion. Whether this will suffice to keep her firepower in line, I don't know.

Best content line; thank you @Lert this phrase made my morning.

Tbh though, I for one have learned my lesson after Graf Zeppelin, and will:

Spoiler

Blindly purchase every German premium WGing sells, and wait, hope, and pray, that later on either they fix any stupid found therein or the community freaks out and those that bought them get an 'OP @#$@ you haters' warship full of cactus hugs.

That's just how I personally feel about it, because otherwise German bote fans only get locked out of all the fun; like I did by following the no buy PSA's on the GZ.

Otherwise good post. Thank you!

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15 minutes ago, ThomasFranz67 said:

Only one question remains. When, WG, when ?  :Smile_playing:

She hasn't even entered ST testing yet, so it'll be two patch cycles at the minimum, which means a 7.8 release at the earliest. Probably later though, especially if she needs more than a single round of testing on ST and live server.

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5 minutes ago, Lert said:

She hasn't even entered ST testing yet, so it'll be two patch cycles at the minimum, which means a 7.8 release at the earliest. Probably later though, especially if she needs more than a single round of testing on ST and live server.

 

And that is completely fine with me. The longer the testing phase lasts, the more likely it is that we will get a well balanced ship which we all can enjoy.  :Smile_honoring:

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4 minutes ago, ThomasFranz67 said:

 

And that is completely fine with me. The longer the testing phase lasts, the more likely it is that we will get a well balanced ship which we all can enjoy.  :Smile_honoring:

Placing bets that this will be held for the week of August 20th, 2018.... #GermanGamesCon  

Too bad the GZ won't be for sale too - rip

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10 minutes ago, KSN said:

Placing bets that this will be held for the week of August 20th, 2018.... #GermanGamesCon 

Which is about 2 to 3 patch cycles, so your guess is possibly quite accurate.

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

There are broadly speaking two types of battleships at tier 6, 8-gun ones and 12-guns ones. The 8-gun ones have bigger guns that can overmatch at-tier battleship plating, the 12-gun ones have smaller caliber guns that can't overmatch 25mm but have a DPM advantage. This ship ... has the worst of both worlds.

Cries in Dunkerque (also same dispersion, 1.7 v. 2.0 sigma).

 

I think PEF's stealth is objectionable, and her combination of speed, armor, firepower, stupid AA and that concealment will generate something far better than the sum of its parts.

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3 hours ago, Lert said:

If WG holds to this armor scheme, Prinz Eitel Friedrich will be a tough cookie indeed. A 300mm belt is slightly less than her Teutonic counterparts, but the 50mm turtleback should keep just about anything out of her citadel except long range, high angle fire, but that's where a 230mm upper belt comes into play, keeping even long range high angle fire out. Plus, the Derfflingers had a tapered waterline belt all the way up to the bow, meaning that - if WG holds to this armor scheme - bow in only a portion of her bow can be overmatched by 15" AP fire. The rest will reliably bounce even 16" shell fire, as long as it hits under a steep enough angle.

The Derfflinger herself earned the nickname 'Iron Dog' for a reason - the Royal Navy were impressed by the German battlecruiser's ability to shrug off fire and simply not sink.

The question is going to be whether a red tm will just simply HE spam her to the waterline. A tough ship in this game will just be focused fired on or saved for last.

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4 hours ago, Lert said:

For the simple reason that there's no turtleback, and the Germans loved their turtlebacks.

The designs of the later battlecruisers and fast battleships (Große Kreuzer and schnelle Großkampfschiffe plans as can be found at http://dreadnoughtproject.org/plans/SM_Studienentwurf/) of the German Empire also lack turtlebacks. It seems only the normal battleship designs continued using a turtleback.

Edited by Snowyskies
Added link to plans

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With regard to DPM, is this the BB that they mentioned would have a Main Battery Reload Booster on the facebook page?

 

EDIT:  Nevermind, that was the Jean Bart

Edited by DerKrampus

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31 minutes ago, Snowyskies said:

It seems only the normal battleship designs continued using a turtleback.

And the cruisers. See Hipper.

Hence it makes little sense to me that they'd stop using turtlebacks with battlecruisers.

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Ah, I only meant the WW1 designs, not any post-war ones. Now granted the smaller cruisers that were under construction also had a turtleback. However from my reading of it, and I may be wrong on this, the planned future (Imperial) German fleet cruisers might not have had any turtleback either. Either way I can't add much more of worth on the subject, I can only look at the plans as found on dreadnoughtproject.org and conclude that at least on them there isn't any turtleback.

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The AA power alone can justify its price. I will definitely  buy this ship if the AA stays strong. I do wish that they give it 300mm main belt instead of the 270,mm

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It's 2.0 Sigma.  I love a lot of guns but after playing the Lion and Gneisenau,  the number of guns don't matter that much.   How many times have i fired 16 guns from my lion only to have 2 or 3 hit for very little damage because they hit everything but what they can actually do damage to.  And that's after I plop them dead center.   If the 14 inch shells don;t hit the right spot or hit at all it's a waste.   Shells that land where you aim them make all the difference.   There is no problem with this ship having only 8 guns.  At longer ranges the sigma will shine as you dodge enemy long range shells due to the impressive speed.  Also i'd take that AA over all the other battleship lines.

Edited by WES_HoundDog

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40 minutes ago, Berlimawurst said:

The AA power alone can justify its price. I will definitely  buy this ship if the AA stays strong. I do wish that they give it 300mm main belt instead of the 270,mm

I thought I saw an update posted in another thread that they had increased the main belt from 270mm to the historical 300mm.  Either way I will be following development of this ship with interest.  @Lert and the OP:  Well said. 

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That thing looks very nice, i may be tempted to biy this, just for the looks alone.

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