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Herr_Reitz

Destroyers and smoke - consider

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Seems to me, at the higher tiers where radar is so very prevalent these days, that dropping smoke, while capping, in a Gearing, isn't the best thing to do. I'm not sure, but from what I see, doing that almost always guarantees one or more radar activation against you. Suddenly, you get a sinking sensation... yup, back to port. 

So I'm suggesting you stop smoking up on caps. My observations, limited as they may be, indicates there are more negatives for you and your team than positives. Worst thing is you provide cover for the reds against your team mates who do not have radar. Your smoke blinds us. Yet you want us to back you up. We cannot shoot what we cannot see. 

How about smoke to retreat from the reds? Depending on how close and what tiers you are at, that might be a big fail as well. You know Moskva has nearly a 12km radar range... if your conceal is around 6km and they get that close to you the Moskva has another 6km to sink you. So smoke probably isn't going to work for you there. 

About the best thing I can see smoke being used for these days is as a screen... you drop smoke, get out in front of it and spot whilst your team mates, a few km behind your screen, let's rip with their main batteries. 

How do you see smoke working these days in such a radar hot environment? 

tiafyc

 

 

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Honestly, as long as you're not panic-smoking in front of me and cutting off my vision (and not spotting,) you can smoke where you like and however you like.

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Smoking in caps was always situational. Even back when radar wasn't around, smoking inside a cap was a good way to attract waves of torpedoes your way and force you to move out of it, getting potentially detected at times. Before Radar was a thing, I'd often use Smoke as an offensive tool to fire at the enemy continually with minimum amount of punishment if I knew where the enemy DDs were... Nowadays, I see smoke more as an "emergency button" for when I'm detected in a bad position or to occasionally smoke a cruiser and spot for them. The radar kinda nullifies the offensive use of smoke unless you know both where the radars AND DDs are.

Smoke was definitely nerfed a lot, still has it's uses but, it wasn't really a capping tool before, what bugs me is that now it's harder to use it to rack up damage.

Edited by Woofship

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First off, many players fail to see that smoke still works well for cruisers, just not BBs anymore. A Gadjah Mada plus Atlanta division is like a Flint on steroids. However, I’ve given up trying to smoke for teammates most of the time because cruisers just ignore the opportunity. 

Second, smoke may help you escape from a bad situation that does not involve radar. Seeing a DD smoke up when hitt by Radar is hilarious. 

Third, smoke for yourself in a cap to finish it off, to distract the enemy, and/or screen your team. Pop the smoke then LEAVE IT so you can SPOT. And so you don’t get torped. 

Fourth, you can still use offensive smoke more often than you might think.  Not in a game with 4 Clevelands still alive, but reduce the number of radar ships and know where they are?  Yeah, you can fire out of smoke.

I was on Hotspot yesterday with 2 friendly Farraguts in the A cap. We never could see the enemy ships. Argh!

Edited by Landing_Skipper

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IMO its situational, a crap shoot either way.

At this point, the last place a DD needs to be is in a cap.

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Preemptively dropping smoke in a cap had been a bad idea since CBT.

Even in my IJN DDs I'll often go entire games without using any smoke. It's just not worth it. Especially when I take over and use smoke the enemy team didn't need to use and that I'm now using against them.

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Well I've had a couple, maybe three games tonight where the dds smoked up in cap at the start of the match. Guess they didn't get the news about smoke being a torp magnet. You used to see manual drops by carriers on smoke early in the match, in hopes of scoring a dd. Not so often now, but still on occasion.  I do see red dds slinging torps tho.... 

 

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12 hours ago, Herr_Reitz said:

Well I've had a couple, maybe three games tonight where the dds smoked up in cap at the start of the match. Guess they didn't get the news about smoke being a torp magnet. You used to see manual drops by carriers on smoke early in the match, in hopes of scoring a dd. Not so often now, but still on occasion.  I do see red dds slinging torps tho.... 

 

It's not advisable to hit a cap and smoke a cap at the beginning of a match, BUT I only say that in cases of Torp planes, and radar.

If you enter a cap and smoke, just back up and keep your stern to where the enemy is located, and your bow pointing away from the cap. Torps come your way while in smoke, they're less likely to hit. Many times you can just sit and watch them pass by. If one come close you can easily move forward a short distance to get out of the way, all while staying in smoke depending on how your smoke is positioned.

If planes are around, it's a similar tactic, but the main thing is to change your position from the last you were spotted. Preferably the direction you're facing.

Of course, that's a whole lot different than a noob just yolo'n out there. That's predominantly what you are seeing.

Personally, the last thing I'm worried about are torps, my only real concern is radar.

 

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Or... put your money where your mouth is and play DD, spot, and show everyone how it's done?

Often the ones most critical of how/where/what the DD are doing are often ones that don't "do".

It's harder to play DD currently, and many people are still adjusting to the new reality of play, this includes Cruisers and Battleships recognizing that the game has shifted on their DD team mates and they now have a greater role to play.

It goes both ways frankly.

I could piss and moan about how awful any class is, there is plenty of blame to go around. 

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You are describing a tactic that works very well with USN DDs, but it assumes teammates will  recognize the opportunity and use it. So in competitive play and divisions, yes, a team that hides its cruisers while the DD spots targets often devastates a team that doesn’t do that. But man, good luck with that in random play. I’d say it works maybe one time in four; in too many other cases a cruiser sails right past it, gets focus fired and dies. 

Lesson: I need to learn to division more when I’m playing USN DDs. 

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I main on IJN DD's.. several have the option to replace the smoke consumable with a torpedo reload boster.  I started using a no smoke Kagero for Supremacy League play during SL's second season and I've never looked back.   Smoke is limited in game utility these days especially once you hit tier 8 play and above..  choice between might be useful smoke or seriously useful TRB.. not a difficult decision.   The rest of the DD's don't have that luxury of having a useful choice.  Ya'll are stuck with your smoke dispensers

The primary reason smoke is useful at all in this game is if your in it, other ships CAN spot ships for you you can then shoot at.  As long as your not unmasked by radar or hydro or assured spotting you can only be blind fired/best guess shot.    I won't even mention real world here because the smoke, radar and hydro don't even work anything like they do in real life.  The systems and the way they work in game is purely fantasy.

All things considered I'd personally be a lot happier with them if they simply worked the way they do in the real world.  Defeating/countering the effects would then simply be a matter of good tactics.  And because they're mostly "active" sensors system they would reveal the user.  Be that as it may.  It's a game and you have no choice but to deal with what you have not what you want.

I've gotten comfortable not using smoke at all, and honestly I don't miss it.  

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On 6/22/2018 at 5:42 AM, Herr_Reitz said:

Seems to me, at the higher tiers where radar is so very prevalent these days, that dropping smoke, while capping, in a Gearing, isn't the best thing to do. I'm not sure, but from what I see, doing that almost always guarantees one or more radar activation against you. Suddenly, you get a sinking sensation... yup, back to port. 

So I'm suggesting you stop smoking up on caps. My observations, limited as they may be, indicates there are more negatives for you and your team than positives. Worst thing is you provide cover for the reds against your team mates who do not have radar. Your smoke blinds us. Yet you want us to back you up. We cannot shoot what we cannot see. 

How about smoke to retreat from the reds? Depending on how close and what tiers you are at, that might be a big fail as well. You know Moskva has nearly a 12km radar range... if your conceal is around 6km and they get that close to you the Moskva has another 6km to sink you. So smoke probably isn't going to work for you there. 

About the best thing I can see smoke being used for these days is as a screen... you drop smoke, get out in front of it and spot whilst your team mates, a few km behind your screen, let's rip with their main batteries. 

How do you see smoke working these days in such a radar hot environment? 

tiafyc

 

 

 

If enemy radar ships within range of a cap, from their point of view, see the cap turning red, then they ought to know what's happening without seeing smoke, regardless. Nonetheless, dropping smoke within caps, particularly when there is an enemy radar ship near, is a waste of smoke and counterproductive for the reasons you state. 

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On 6/22/2018 at 8:42 AM, Herr_Reitz said:

Seems to me, at the higher tiers where radar is so very prevalent these days, that dropping smoke, while capping, in a Gearing, isn't the best thing to do. I'm not sure, but from what I see, doing that almost always guarantees one or more radar activation against you. Suddenly, you get a sinking sensation... yup, back to port. 

So I'm suggesting you stop smoking up on caps. My observations, limited as they may be, indicates there are more negatives for you and your team than positives. Worst thing is you provide cover for the reds against your team mates who do not have radar. Your smoke blinds us. Yet you want us to back you up. We cannot shoot what we cannot see. 

How about smoke to retreat from the reds? Depending on how close and what tiers you are at, that might be a big fail as well. You know Moskva has nearly a 12km radar range... if your conceal is around 6km and they get that close to you the Moskva has another 6km to sink you. So smoke probably isn't going to work for you there. 

About the best thing I can see smoke being used for these days is as a screen... you drop smoke, get out in front of it and spot whilst your team mates, a few km behind your screen, let's rip with their main batteries. 

How do you see smoke working these days in such a radar hot environment? 

tiafyc

 

 

Smoke is mostly only useful for bait at this point, torps/radar/misdirection.

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On 6/22/2018 at 8:42 AM, Herr_Reitz said:

Seems to me, at the higher tiers where radar is so very prevalent these days, that dropping smoke, while capping, in a Gearing, isn't the best thing to do. I'm not sure, but from what I see, doing that almost always guarantees one or more radar activation against you. Suddenly, you get a sinking sensation... yup, back to port. 

So I'm suggesting you stop smoking up on caps. My observations, limited as they may be, indicates there are more negatives for you and your team than positives. Worst thing is you provide cover for the reds against your team mates who do not have radar. Your smoke blinds us. Yet you want us to back you up. We cannot shoot what we cannot see. 

How about smoke to retreat from the reds? Depending on how close and what tiers you are at, that might be a big fail as well. You know Moskva has nearly a 12km radar range... if your conceal is around 6km and they get that close to you the Moskva has another 6km to sink you. So smoke probably isn't going to work for you there. 

About the best thing I can see smoke being used for these days is as a screen... you drop smoke, get out in front of it and spot whilst your team mates, a few km behind your screen, let's rip with their main batteries. 

How do you see smoke working these days in such a radar hot environment? 

tiafyc

 

 

Even befor radar, it was customary to send a salco of torpedoes into a smoke to wake the other dd up.

Smoking on caps has never been a good idea. Unless your taking or about to take fire that is.

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One of the things that has always driven me crazy is when destroyers sail into a cap in the early game & immediately park in their smoke cloud.  Besides drawing a huge bullseye for the enemy team to aim at, it also prevents them from seeing any enemy ships approaching that cap, which then prevents their teammates from giving supporting fire, which then leads to that DD captain spending 15 minutes in game chat complaining about how "nobody supported" them. :Smile_facepalm:

What (high tier) smoke can still be useful for:

  • Teammates.  In addition to suggestions above regarding smoking up friendly cruisers, a well-placed smoke can be a lifesaver if a friendly battleship needs to turn around & get out of Dodge.  Yes, many random teammates will have no idea how to properly use smoke when given to them, but it's generally worth a shot when you probably won't be using it for yourself anyway.
  • Forcing radars.  Even if you're spotted and know that you're inside the range of an enemy radar, forcing that ship to use it means one less radar charge you have to worry about later in the battle and, probably more importantly, one less radar that a less-aware teammate will have to deal with.
  • Late game.  High tier destroyer play is often a game of patience, waiting for the right opportunities to push & for the cruisers to thin out a bit.  In the latter half of the battle you'll often find instances where any remaining radar ships are spotted and well outside of range, allowing you to get in some good old-fashioned smoke firing.
  • As bait.  You can rack up quite a bit of damage against radar cruisers & overaggressive destroyers by laying down a smoke and quickly leaving it.  If you're being pursued by a DD, dump some torps into your own smoke for him, and if the situation allows it, use those torps to funnel him into a gun engagement that you'll be prepared for (but he won't).  Dropping smoke a few hundred meters outside the radar range of a cruiser's known location can sometimes get him to break cover to radar you, allowing you to dump some predictive torps along the course he's likely to take and your teammates to pour some fire on him.
  • Distracting the enemy for a couple seconds.  Again, even if you know that you're in radar range, a significant percentage of the player base still needs to look at their keyboard to find their radar key.  That takes their eyes off the screen and forces them to re-calibrate their aim, which can net you the few extra seconds you need for your torpedoes to come off cooldown (or to arrive if you've already fired them).
  • Blinding your teammates when you need a little more time to secure your 5th kill in the closing moments of a runaway win. :Smile_teethhappy:
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On 6/23/2018 at 12:37 PM, Canadatron said:

Or... put your money where your mouth is and play DD, spot, and show everyone how it's done?

Often the ones most critical of how/where/what the DD are doing are often ones that don't "do".

It's harder to play DD currently, and many people are still adjusting to the new reality of play, this includes Cruisers and Battleships recognizing that the game has shifted on their DD team mates and they now have a greater role to play.

It goes both ways frankly.

I could piss and moan about how awful any class is, there is plenty of blame to go around. 

I have 3,215 dd battles since I joined in beta. Easily over 600 in tiers VIII-X. Enough matches for you? When I play DD I do not park in cap under smoke. And as I have posted elsewhere in the recent past, my smoke is used for the team (generally first) and for me trying to escape (generally second). 

Generally, I prefer to keep moving all the time when playing DD. 

Edited by Herr_Reitz

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Use it as radar bait. Drop it before u are spotted and back off immediately. Smoke in or near a cap, deters a lot  off
ships from entering upon seeing it. Psychological warfare. :Smile_teethhappy:  If Radar ship near by they will trigger it and you are
long gone from that area.

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