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Capt_h2o

So you want to be toxic in chat?

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I just played a battle where the chat was filled with "report the DD"! 

I finally asked "why?"

"Because he's not spotting"

Well since I was dead, yolo moment, I looked up the player. Now I'm not sure how he was in a T8 DD, might have Been premium, but the poor guy has 900 battles. And I watched him the entire time after I was dead, sure he wasn't spotting, but he was playing, he was attacking the red boats, he was doing better then most of the DD's I see. 

So the [edited] seems to be that he wasn't spotting for the campers that were farming xp from a nice safe distance. 

 

Final result, it was a win, the guy with 900 battles was alive, took a cap and did damage to the red team. I'd rather have 11 guys on my team that fought, stayed alive and got a win, then the campers that only worry about the XP they are getting. 

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I get pretty salty when DDs smoke up for no real reason and just sit there whilst enemy team has vision and I can't shoot back because we have no eyes.  Was this perhaps why they were annoyed?

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1 hour ago, Capt_h2o said:

So the [edited] seems to be that he wasn't spotting for the campers that were farming xp from a nice safe distance. 

Was arguing with a BB player in the Forum who was adamant about how he should never have to come closer than 15 K from the enemy if "his" DDs were doing their jobs. It's a shame they can't hear you laughing on the Forum.

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1 hour ago, Capt_h2o said:

I just played a battle where the chat was filled with "report the DD"! 

I finally asked "why?"

"Because he's not spotting"

Well since I was dead, yolo moment, I looked up the player. Now I'm not sure how he was in a T8 DD, might have Been premium, but the poor guy has 900 battles. And I watched him the entire time after I was dead, sure he wasn't spotting, but he was playing, he was attacking the red boats, he was doing better then most of the DD's I see. 

So the [edited] seems to be that he wasn't spotting for the campers that were farming xp from a nice safe distance. 

 

Final result, it was a win, the guy with 900 battles was alive, took a cap and did damage to the red team. I'd rather have 11 guys on my team that fought, stayed alive and got a win, then the campers that only worry about the XP they are getting. 

Her goes the abuse of the in game report system.  In other words reported for reporting lol.

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As a frequent dd player, you're either pulling a yolo trying to cap or hiding (concealed spotting - staying dark) It seems everybody has a different idea of your duties depending on what ship they happen to be in. And in my opinion the people abusing the report system are the worst offenders. You know the ones who watch from the grave and type 500 wpm about how sole surviving dd blew it !!! Bad dds if they would have been spotting instead capping or vice a versa we would have won the match. And people forget this game is situational, not static (you know , dont go b  , defend this flank) every match is slightly different. And you can bet at least 5 players on there  team are saying dont go b. Doesnt that make b an easy cap? It works for me most of the time. All matches are different and sticking to one tactic or position is a sure way to lose. And the ones who yell report him tend to be fairly parasitic and if your not doing what they feel is right thing your throwing the match. Hopefully wows saw through this and his karma was high enough that it was a pass. Short of sinking allies or just blatant doing nothing live and let live guys. Sometimes you get a team , sometimes you get a bunch of experts (mostly dead) but experts nonetheless. And have fun and let the toxic experts type away instead of watching the mini map.

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13 hours ago, Deviathan said:

I get pretty salty when DDs smoke up for no real reason and just sit there whilst enemy team has vision and I can't shoot back because we have no eyes.  

Just admit it, you were never really planning on shooting anyway...  ?

I now purposely pull back my spotting if my team isn't using it as I see fit. Too often our ships want to use spotting only to know when they should run and hide OR know when their "spot" is in jeopardy.

Trust me, a team not using the spotting you are risking your ship to give them is equally frustrating. There is little as disappointing as popping a smoke to GTFO (say 10-12 minutes in) and having no red ships show up because you are the only person giving the team vision. I'd say the majority of players have serious issues understanding/using vision in game, and probably a big reason DD is as maligned as it is.

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53 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

Just admit it, you were never really planning on shooting anyway...  ?

You don't get to 63% WR without shooting back~

But yeah, in general it's super frustrating to be keeping things spotted and having nobody shooting it

Edited by Deviathan

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1 minute ago, Deviathan said:

You don't get to 63% WR without shooting back~

But yeah, in general it's super frustrating to be keeping things spotted and having nobody shooting it

Exactly, and you also don't ring up 56% and counting WR through 80% DD play with not knowing who is and isn't doing their job, along with not knowing your own. At no point in this games history have I seen an improvement in either chat or teamplay, and I doubt we will.

 

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At no point in this games history have I seen an improvement in either chat or teamplay, and I doubt we will.

Sadly, I must agree.

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If you play a DD you should always expect to be reported, or at least vilified in chat by players who have never played one themselves. There are certainly games where one ship's actions (or inaction) could have made the difference between victory and defeat. In my experience, this is usually an AFK battleship or the Yamato that started the game by reversing out of spawn and didn't stop until he was the last one left alive, and it's easy to point a finger at the obvious. But a lot of games are pretty one-sided and the disaster starts relatively early in the match, and for most players that means destroyers, since they're supposed to be the pointy end of the spear. Never mind that one cruiser that just has to go to C when everyone else is going to A and B, and begging him to turn around. The ships that take the looooong way around big islands and are useless for 5 or more minutes at a stretch. Destroyers that want to hunt carriers. Carriers that want to snipe carriers. Radar cruisers that want to "escort" carriers. The battleship that will blindly chase a kiting flamethrower across the map, raging all the while. Etc. Etc. Etc ...Most games are a disaster, now that I'm thinking about it, but even when they're not the one constant is that there is always more than enough blame to go around.

I guess I ranted a little. Sorry.

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16 hours ago, Umikami said:

Was arguing with a BB player in the Forum who was adamant about how he should never have to come closer than 15 K from the enemy if "his" DDs were doing their jobs. It's a shame they can't hear you laughing on the Forum.

Well with the ever increasing HE spam meta, that is going to be the future for all battleships, especially with the new light cruisers coming out. I was in a game in my GK the other day with a full fireproof build I still took over 71k in FIRE damage. Yes Battleships have the largest health pool but if you get too close where multiple cruisers can shoot at you from behind islands where you can not fire back you are dead in three minutes and there is nothing you can do about it. With the new light cruisers I see a time where I will be forced to sit outside of cruisers main battery range and fire......as the only way to stay alive.

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1 hour ago, Belthorian said:

Well with the ever increasing HE spam meta, that is going to be the future for all battleships, especially with the new light cruisers coming out. I was in a game in my GK the other day with a full fireproof build I still took over 71k in FIRE damage. Yes Battleships have the largest health pool but if you get too close where multiple cruisers can shoot at you from behind islands where you can not fire back you are dead in three minutes and there is nothing you can do about it. With the new light cruisers I see a time where I will be forced to sit outside of cruisers main battery range and fire......as the only way to stay alive.

Totally agree, I am seeing the same thing...actually won the match with points ..two caps captured...killed about only 5 of the enemy team lost maybe two on our side...but I resisted the urge to push and instead played my Monty with long range bombardment staying out of cruiser range and we did ok...I know the cruisers I kept taking long range pot shots at were probably frothing at the mouth that they could not get in range to fire effective and could not use cover lol.

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18 hours ago, Deviathan said:

I get pretty salty when DDs smoke up for no real reason and just sit there whilst enemy team has vision and I can't shoot back because we have no eyes.  Was this perhaps why they were annoyed?

don't forget to add the dd that eats torps while sitting in his own smoke.

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18 hours ago, Capt_h2o said:

I just played a battle where the chat was filled with "report the DD"! 

I finally asked "why?"

"Because he's not spotting"

Well since I was dead, yolo moment, I looked up the player. Now I'm not sure how he was in a T8 DD, might have Been premium, but the poor guy has 900 battles. And I watched him the entire time after I was dead, sure he wasn't spotting, but he was playing, he was attacking the red boats, he was doing better then most of the DD's I see. 

So the [edited] seems to be that he wasn't spotting for the campers that were farming xp from a nice safe distance. 

 

Final result, it was a win, the guy with 900 battles was alive, took a cap and did damage to the red team. I'd rather have 11 guys on my team that fought, stayed alive and got a win, then the campers that only worry about the XP they are getting. 

Many people confuse constructive criticism with "being toxic" the main job of a DD is to spot, and stay alive until many pieces are removed from the chess board. If you play chess, you understand the value of pawns (dds). there is to much radar in the game for dds to rush in and cap early. 

I can't tell you how many games Ive won playing dd and had less than 10k damage...Spotting is > than everything else. 

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9 minutes ago, Sweetsie said:

Many people confuse constructive criticism with "being toxic" the main job of a DD is to spot, and stay alive until many pieces are removed from the chess board. If you play chess, you understand the value of pawns (dds). there is to much radar in the game for dds to rush in and cap early. 

I can't tell you how many games Ive won playing dd and had less than 10k damage...Spotting is > than everything else. 

But if you don't cap, Admiral Knowitall will be complaining that you should be in the cap.

When driving DDs, I try to cap in Domination or Epicenter if I can.  (I still try a bit too hard, but I am getting better.)  In Standard, I do my best to find the key ships (starting with DDs) and keep them lit for rest of the team.

I will agree that Vision is one of the most important parts of this game.

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1 hour ago, Belthorian said:

Well with the ever increasing HE spam meta, that is going to be the future for all battleships, especially with the new light cruisers coming out. I was in a game in my GK the other day with a full fireproof build I still took over 71k in FIRE damage. Yes Battleships have the largest health pool but if you get too close where multiple cruisers can shoot at you from behind islands where you can not fire back you are dead in three minutes and there is nothing you can do about it. With the new light cruisers I see a time where I will be forced to sit outside of cruisers main battery range and fire......as the only way to stay alive.

I have never enjoyed the current "I hide best" meta currently in the game, nor do I approve of cruisers hiding behind islands and being able to shoot at the opposing team. The American "Moon Shot" gun arcs contribute greatly to this, but even more to blame is the citadel meta which totally prevents a historic / traditional method of attack, ie: "crossing the T". Traditionally, ships tried to get the most guns they could to bear on a target, and so were designed so they could do just that. WoW comes along and totally throws that out the window by giving 3/4 of the ships in the game huge areas where a hit gives the opposing team a huge increase in damage. So players naturally now have to play in non-traditional ways to protect something that doesn't exist in real life, which most of these ships were designed to fight in. When you add radar and hydro that see through islands, cruisers have absolutely NO motivation to NOT hide and shoot, which, in turn, makes DDs afraid to cap and BBs afraid to push. I don't know how much research and testing they did when considering giving ships citadel areas which give more points for strikes, but it really wasn't enough to give the game any sort of realistic base and has caused many of the issues players complain about.

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19 hours ago, Umikami said:

Was arguing with a BB player in the Forum who was adamant about how he should never have to come closer than 15 K from the enemy if "his" DDs were doing their jobs. It's a shame they can't hear you laughing on the Forum.

I absolutely despise BB drivers with that attitude.   That's the sort of ID-10-T error that cause lost matches.  

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7 hours ago, kinnard63 said:

As a frequent dd player, you're either pulling a yolo trying to cap or hiding (concealed spotting - staying dark) It seems everybody has a different idea of your duties depending on what ship they happen to be in. And in my opinion the people abusing the report system are the worst offenders. You know the ones who watch from the grave and type 500 wpm about how sole surviving dd blew it !!! Bad dds if they would have been spotting instead capping or vice a versa we would have won the match. And people forget this game is situational, not static (you know , dont go b  , defend this flank) every match is slightly different. And you can bet at least 5 players on there  team are saying dont go b. Doesnt that make b an easy cap? It works for me most of the time. All matches are different and sticking to one tactic or position is a sure way to lose. And the ones who yell report him tend to be fairly parasitic and if your not doing what they feel is right thing your throwing the match. Hopefully wows saw through this and his karma was high enough that it was a pass. Short of sinking allies or just blatant doing nothing live and let live guys. Sometimes you get a team , sometimes you get a bunch of experts (mostly dead) but experts nonetheless. And have fun and let the toxic experts type away instead of watching the mini map.

How about when a Cleveland and a Mahan is by D-cap, Cleveland states that it is going to support D. Mahan decides to go B-cap (which is on the opposite side of the map), but doesn't enter the cap, instead turns around, and starts heading to A-Cap which is already captured, which then causes him to turn around again while an Ognevoi(sp?) starts capping B, Mahan still doesn't enter. Ognevoi captures, all the while another player posts in chat "report all those who went D" because you know, how dare those players try to take advantage of starting position...

Oh, and I should mention that the Cleveland, 100% only ship in the match with radar consumable.

Mahan and Cleveland player get into argument over who was more useful, Mahan player even saying Cleveland player was going to be bottom three... Cleveland was in the top 6, it was the Mahan who was bottom three. Gee... it's almost like delaying the capture of a point is a viable strategy, even if it ends up with you being killed. Mahan literally thinking he didn't need to support a team, in a game that requires teamwork to achieve victory... Unless you are a god, capable of soloing 12 ships...

However, had the Mahan taken advantage of the fact that Cleveland was 100% the only ship with Radar, and went to D, where Cleveland was supporting, there would have been a higher chance of victory. Instead, the game was lost.

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1 hour ago, Umikami said:

I have never enjoyed the current "I hide best" meta currently in the game, nor do I approve of cruisers hiding behind islands and being able to shoot at the opposing team. The American "Moon Shot" gun arcs contribute greatly to this, but even more to blame is the citadel meta which totally prevents a historic / traditional method of attack, ie: "crossing the T". Traditionally, ships tried to get the most guns they could to bear on a target, and so were designed so they could do just that. WoW comes along and totally throws that out the window by giving 3/4 of the ships in the game huge areas where a hit gives the opposing team a huge increase in damage. So players naturally now have to play in non-traditional ways to protect something that doesn't exist in real life, which most of these ships were designed to fight in. When you add radar and hydro that see through islands, cruisers have absolutely NO motivation to NOT hide and shoot, which, in turn, makes DDs afraid to cap and BBs afraid to push. I don't know how much research and testing they did when considering giving ships citadel areas which give more points for strikes, but it really wasn't enough to give the game any sort of realistic base and has caused many of the issues players complain about.

So question, I understand the whole crossing the T to bring more guns on target. However wouldn't hitting the target me exponentially harder from head on vs side on? Also do you think crossing the T also was sought out because you could bypass the armored belt and only have the deck armor to deal with?

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14 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

However wouldn't hitting the target me exponentially harder from head on vs side on?

I'm sure it would, but also partially made up for by having more guns trained on the target. Everything is a trade off, when you cross someone's T you also give them a better target because you're showing them much more. Of course, when you're only sporting a 5% hit ratio, like most ships enjoyed in real life, then the tactic makes much more sense. But even with WoWs artificially inflated accuracy it would still be a viable tactic if not for citadel hits.

14 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

Also do you think crossing the T also was sought out because you could bypass the armored belt and only have the deck armor to deal with?

Crossing the T has been a tactic long before armor was introduced to ships, going back to the age of sail and oak ships, so I'm inclined to say no. Also, those ships of sail carried many more single guns, with far less range and accuracy, so, again, need most likely motivated the tactic. I will admit that your idea could easily be the reason it remained a viable tactic during the age of Dreadnaughts, because with the cost of a modern era, 1900s plus, capitol ship, tactics that didn't work, or perhaps put the ship in greater danger, would have been discarded quickly. The use of the tactic in modern times really starts with the IJN vs the Russians at Tsushima, which has been the benchmark for defeating an opposing fleet of gunboats for over a century. They made it work, and work well, so everyone else copied it. Imitation being the very best form of flattery.

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2 hours ago, Sweetsie said:

Many people confuse constructive criticism with "being toxic" 

To be fair, those types exist on both sides of the equation.....

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9 minutes ago, Umikami said:

I'm sure it would, but also partially made up for by having more guns trained on the target. Everything is a trade off, when you cross someone's T you also give them a better target because you're showing them much more. Of course, when you're only sporting a 5% hit ratio, like most ships enjoyed in real life, then the tactic makes much more sense. But even with WoWs artificially inflated accuracy it would still be a viable tactic if not for citadel hits.

Crossing the T has been a tactic long before armor was introduced to ships, going back to the age of sail and oak ships, so I'm inclined to say no. Also, those ships of sail carried many more single guns, with far less range and accuracy, so, again, need most likely motivated the tactic. I will admit that your idea could easily be the reason it remained a viable tactic during the age of Dreadnaughts, because with the cost of a modern era, 1900s plus, capitol ship, tactics that didn't work, or perhaps put the ship in greater danger, would have been discarded quickly. The use of the tactic in modern times really starts with the IJN vs the Russians at Tsushima, which has been the benchmark for defeating an opposing fleet of gunboats for over a century. They made it work, and work well, so everyone else copied it. Imitation being the very best form of flattery.

During Tsushima the Russian Admiral and Admiral Togo stood out on the open bridge to have a better view of the battle. It cost the Russian Admiral his life early in the battle. How insanely brave those me were to stand in the open with all that firepower shooting at you. Honestly I don't think I would have had the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing. 

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10 minutes ago, Umikami said:

Crossing the T has been a tactic long before armor was introduced to ships, going back to the age of sail and oak ships, so I'm inclined to say no. Also, those ships of sail carried many more single guns, with far less range and accuracy....

Traverse limits are a biggie too. During the Age of Sail, if you crossed the opponent's "T", you could basically have half the guns of every ship in the line fire at the lead enemy ship, and it would be unable to return fire at all. (except for maybe 1 or 2 bow/stern guns)

And there was an "armor layout" factor as well. Perpendicular hits on the bow or stern could clear half the length of gundeck with splinters, as opposed to a smaller area of effect from broadside hits.

But yeah, even pre-Dreadnought, once casemate guns appeared, combined with greater range, borh the ships being crossed, and the ones doing the crossing, could hit each other before crossing occurred.

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8 minutes ago, Belthorian said:

During Tsushima the Russian Admiral and Admiral Togo stood out on the open bridge to have a better view of the battle. It cost the Russian Admiral his life early in the battle. How insanely brave those me were to stand in the open with all that firepower shooting at you. Honestly I don't think I would have had the intestinal fortitude to do such a thing. 

It would be pretty similar to a tank commander fighting his tank with his head out the hatch.

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