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saber1979

A different take on MM, CVs, DDs, maps, & radar

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I had a ridiculous series of battles last night, every single battle was lopsided one way or the other, and it got me thinking.  Pretty much everything people complain about at higher tiers other than radar working through islands (should be fixed period), is a spatial problem.

Tier 10 maps come in 3 sizes.

  • 36 Km x 36 Km = 1296 Km^2
  • 42 Km x 42 Km = 1764 Km^2
  • 48 Km x 348 Km = 2304 Km^2

Compare that to the ranges of some of the wepons in games.

  • Yamato - base main battery range 26.6 Km   - 2222 Km^2, more area than all but the largest map.
  • Russian CA range - 11.7 Km (greater than a Gearings base main battery range) - 430 Km^2  33% of the smallest map, 18% of the largest map
  • 16.5 Km torpedoes - 855 Km^2 65% of the smallest map, 37% of the largest map

 

Now look at the way way meta is currently going.

  • DDs won't cap unless they can get into strong cover, or the enemy radar ships  are either all dead or accounted for.
  • CAs  hug rocks because they don't want to get deleted by a BB salvo
  • BBs snipe from maximum range,  because they don't want to get heat spammed or torped to death
  • CVs are super rare, because all they can do is spot for the first part of the game till ships take significant damage to their AA guns.
  • Lots of people hate cvs because they can perma spot indefinitely.

 The game keeps getting dumbed-down, and skill keeps getting removed and replaced with luck. Hence the reason  play keeps becoming more and more passive. You make one mistake and all those ships that where outside detection range or just behind that island will light you up, because they are within firing range.  Reliable Team play is non existent, unless you are in A division with people you can trust.


Imo, this all comes back to a spatial issue, the maps are to small for all the ranges involved.
 

Two  possible simple fixes

  • decrease all the ranges - Unless the code base is utter garbage, this should require almost no work.  
  • make the maps larger - Again this shouldn't be very difficult, its not like they are developing a completely new concept
  • Make CV planes have  fuel limits, so their ranges are limited.
  • Lowe the AA ability of ships to give CVS a chance.


what this accomplishes.

  • Team play is encouraged, because going off on your own will limit you ability to deal damage to the enemy  as they are further away. You can also end up in a real hurt locker, if you run into a group of reds because you have no one within range to support you
  • Its easier for DDs to cap, spot, and flank. However they will be punished more harshly  for mistakes, because  your support is out of range, and the enemy can focus on you more.
  • CAs can spend more time in the open, because half the enemy team isn't withing firing range. But they can't camp as much now because they run a higher risk of being flanked, spotted and/or torpedoed by a DD, or taken out by a CV. Not to mention since their range is reduced they must move up if they want to deal damage and help the team.
  • BBs will have it much the same as CAs. If your spotted by a DD it's not so bad, he might be the only one within range to attack you. No more getting spotted by a dd and then lit on fire by  multiple ships HE spamming you. On the positive side wen a CA makes a mistake you can really put the hurt on him, because he has less support, and is out in the open, not lobbing shells over an island with impunity.
  • CVS Have a real chance of damaging any ship in the game, because AA isn't so dangerous, because ships are more spread out so you might only be withing range of one ships AA guns. Also its not as powerful as it currently is. However, your planes have limited fuel/range, so you can't hide at the back of the map, and you can't  perma spot.  When you are spotting someone they will be less likely to take damage because your support won't all be withing range of them.




Honestly, i think this would push the game  in a direction that's much more team oriented, because every type of ships is heavily punished for yoloing, and hanging back.

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Wargaming likes players to burp out battles every ten minutes. They put in the twenty minute timer to prevents games lasting an hour. I would bet wargaming loves all of these stomps, because it puts players back in the mix to lose money at high tier matches and spend their money on premium accounts.

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2 minutes ago, Prothall said:

Wargaming likes players to burp out battles every ten minutes. They put in the twenty minute timer to prevents games lasting an hour. I would bet wargaming loves all of these stomps, because it puts players back in the mix to lose money at high tier matches and spend their money on premium accounts.


Its a fine line though, because at some point its more chance/luck than skill for your average player. I'f I'm going to blow cash on something that's 90+% luck I'd rather do it at a casino where the potential reward makes it worth it.

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Bigger maps is the way to go imo. It makes sense for weapon range to increase with time. The distances travelled are always insignificant from a fuel perspective. And nothing can be solved with the current AA mechanic.

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There is another hard counter to all of this without having to buff or nerf a thing. 

Cooperative team play. 

Yeah.. I crack me up. 

 

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I think the size of the maps is definitely a factor.  However, I believe the size of the maps is directly related to the 20 minute time limit.  WG wants a fast paced game, so people can play several games per day.   The more churn, the more people get thrown back into the queue for the next match.  This makes it easier to keep the 5 minute limit when waiting for a launch.

I've got mixed feelings on this.  I like being able to just drop in and find a match pretty much any time without a lot of waiting.  But actually playing with the 20 minute time limit causes a couple of things that may not be desirable to everyone:

  • You have to make mad dashes to cap and/or destroy things quickly.  Exciting and fun, but it makes it harder to implement deliberate strategies that require patience.  If your plan takes too long to implement, the battle quickly tilts one way or the other before you can do anything.  At that point your team is either doomed, or about to win with you having contributed nothing to the outcome.
  • Ships have to be fragile, and even a brief mistake or miscalculation can be fatal.  Otherwise most matches would end up with 9-10 survivors on each side in various stages of damage, instead of the current state where one side or the other gets a couple of quick kills, and then it goes quickly downhill for the other side, and the match ends with 0-2 survivors on one side, and 3-8 survivors on the other.  Basically, a lot of matches come down to who draws first blood, (well, first and second blood), and it's very difficult for a team to recover from early losses.

Overall, I find it fun.  But it might be nice to have the option of a slightly slower paced, more deliberate version that's less reliant on hand-eye coordination and split second timing.  But I guess that would be a completely different game.

 

Edited by zubalkabir

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Larger maps make it a pain if you're looking for the enemy team, especially as stealth builds are the meta, and sometimes allows players to forcibly drag out a match since most offer room to flee.

Shrinking the map size a bit would help.

WG is not responsible for doing anything about player skill levels, as that's not something they can program.

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1 hour ago, Reymu said:

Larger maps make it a pain if you're looking for the enemy team, especially as stealth builds are the meta, and sometimes allows players to forcibly drag out a match since most offer room to flee.


The game puts such a high priority on stealth because, the maps are so small. stealth would be less important if being spotted didn't yield so many people shooting at you.


Not to mention game modes can be tweaked to make battle quick even on big maps. for example.
 

  • The longer you hold a cap the faster you acrue points.
  • Only accrue points if a ship of yours is in the cap
  • Tie points to the amount of damage done by your team  while holding the cap
  • Add a multiplie for the number of caps held.
     

Also we do have some precedence for this, ranked & clan battles are 7 on 7. This is very similar to having a larger map for 12 on 12, the player density is lower so you have less people within range shooting.

 

1 hour ago, Reymu said:

WG is not responsible for doing anything about player skill levels, as that's not something they can program.

Not directly no, but they are responsible for it if they want to continue to make money.  You need to keep it interesting for long term players who have learned everything they need to, but at the same time you have to make sure new players have a chance. If long term players get to stomp the crap out of a new player any time they make a tiny mistake that usually doesn't bode well for a games long term expectancy.

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Good post saber. I like the map size idea. I’m not sure nerfing AA is good or not. Cross dropping midways require vigorous defenses. Maybe tiers 7-9 could be nerfed a bit?

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  • CVS Have a real chance of damaging any ship in the game, because AA isn't so dangerous, because ships are more spread out so you might only be withing range of one ships AA guns. Also its not as powerful as it currently is.

So you want them to be more powerful? Really?

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16 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Good post saber. I like the map size idea. I’m not sure nerfing AA is good or not. Cross dropping midways require vigorous defenses. Maybe tiers 7-9 could be nerfed a bit?

Yea it definitely wouldn't be across all tiers, it would be at the higher ones where an AA specked ship or can seriously tear up planes.

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17 minutes ago, _no_one_ said:

 

  • CVS Have a real chance of damaging any ship in the game, because AA isn't so dangerous, because ships are more spread out so you might only be withing range of one ships AA guns. Also its not as powerful as it currently is.

So you want them to be more powerful? Really?


Their power would be more situational, since the planes would have fuel constants.

  •  they can't camp at the back of the map,  and attack enemies on the far side of the map
  • They can't loiter in a given area indefinitely denying that region of the map to the enemy
  • They can't perma spot.
  • They have to move up and be susceptible to damage if they want to hit targets.

This is where the forced team play comes in, Now the CV needs a DD or a CA or both to run a screen for them.

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3 hours ago, saber1979 said:

Make CV planes have  fuel limits, so their ranges are limited.

Love this one.

Saw a CV in high tire autopilot to A1, or a CV in mid tire send all planes hug the map border and try to go for red CA at the beginning of the match are really frustrated.

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7 minutes ago, sapient007 said:

 or a CV in mid tire send all planes hug the map border and try to go for red CA at the beginning of the match are really frustrated.


I've actually seen this work at high tiers.

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2 minutes ago, saber1979 said:


Their power would be more situational, since the planes would have fuel constants.

  •  they can't camp at the back of the map,  and attack enemies on the far side of the map This would only prevent the cv to snipe the other cv which is a good thing
  • They can't loiter in a given area indefinitely denying that region of the map to the enemy This is also a good thing.
  • They can't perma spot. This would also be a good thing
  • They have to move up and be susceptible to damage if they want to hit targets. This is not good. A good cv player will move up just to save time for his planes. But will do this in cover.  But in the end you said "..
    • Lowe the AA ability of ships to give CVS a chance.... And this is a BIG NO!!! I suggest you to watch cv gameplay where they delete a  BB in one perfect manual drop. This happens all the time. And you didn't mention the problem with strafe or the problem  with the fckn NUCLEAR BOMBS , the ap bombs. in the end you need to understand there is a BIG FCKN problem with cv gameplay. It is so unbalance that wg decided to make a global rework to the gameplay and the only thing we can do is wait.

This is where the forced team play comes in, Now the CV needs a DD or a CA or both to run a screen for them.

 

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1 hour ago, thebigblue said:

Good post saber. I like the map size idea. I’m not sure nerfing AA is good or not. Cross dropping midways require vigorous defenses. Maybe tiers 7-9 could be nerfed a bit?

Im not sure what WG was smoking when they came up with the idea to return the 2nd TB squadron to Midway. It was incredibly OP before, now its just OP. Perhaps WG figured that there are more AA ships around so it was doable.  However, T10 CV's always go after T8 BB's first, always have, always will and a T8 BB is now a one trip kill for a decent Midway driver unless said T8 BB is glued to a T10 AA spec'd cruiser.

Like CV's, AA needs a complete overhaul. No ship should be untouchable vs a CV and likewise, no BB/cruiser should be essentially defenceless vs a CV. AA capability should not be diminished over time by damage for balance purposes, much in the same way turret destruction was tuned down, it was not unheard of for a Cleveland to have lost all 4 main turrets and be left with more than half its HP. Despite the loss of AA due to fires/HE damage being realistic, realism should be tossed out the window in favour of balance much like it has for many other issues.

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