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Doomwaffel

Frustrated Des Moines player

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I played the US and IJN line of cruisers since I began playing and focussed on them, but even after getting close to a Lv19 cap on the Des Moines it just never stops beeing frustrating and somewhat of an unfullfilling gameplay. It just doesnt feel good most of the time, partially because I just dont get the design/ intended idea behind her but also because you always have to be on the defense - You get surprised by something you die.

But maybeI just drove myself into a corner and have to look at it in a different way so maybe you guys can give me some feedback and your impressions on this ship.

The DM has a rather short range for a T10 ship, but its sayd that the guns make up for it. > This builds the idea of a close combat brawler, so you would expect a ship that excels at close combat.
The DM has one of the biggest citadels in the game and is really squishy overall > So NOT a brawler ?
The DM has no defensive options or deturrents > No smoke, no torps, It has the radar so it can fight DDs in close combat, IF no other ship is around. Again, the radar gives you the idea that you should go 1st and smoke that DD out, but that usually only leads to a short match and a quick death for you.
+ Other Cruiser DO have these options and protected cit, so your gun advantage doesnt even do that much unless they show broadside (in which case most of them can shoot torps at you)

If you build a Cruiser that is all about guns, you would expect a citadel machine, but overall you get better results with high velocity/accurate guns like the Moskva, which can citadel even BBs across the map.
While we are at it, lets compare the DM to the Moskva: the Moskva shoots rather fast as well, has more pen power, is way more accurate, even has pretty good AA. It has 15k HP more, partially better armor AND even the radar though a different one. It also has a giant citadel like the DM, but it can fire effectively from afar. The biggest downside of course is the giant spotting range of the Moskva.

So we have a ship that has close to no combat options (boring) dies easily (frustrating) and excels only in 3 things:
A) Staying behind a rock/fleet and shoot from cover with short ranged guns that barely hit moving targets anyway past ~13km
B) AA - which is cool once you get to use it
C) Kill DDs if you get close enough and without any enemys around

In combination with the good concealment you only have 2 options: The rock spamming or trying to get close to the flank of a ship and start surprise shooting him and HOPE that you kill him fast enough before he turns onto you. :(

 

With the new upgrades WG  had an idea and gave us the option to be more mobile while removing the range upgrade. Which is a good thought, now it needs more tankyness too and you can actually move away from that rock.
I will play the DM until the cpt is done but right now I am very frustrated with her. Let me hear your thoughts and impressions.

thanks

 

Edited by Doomwaffel

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I will try the spotter plane/ accuracy module. Maybe it helps getting into another mindset.

 

Edited by Doomwaffel

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1 minute ago, _Iku said:

irBKLxK.jpg

image.jpeg.10d913ea1c7727192c9b217e1301ad6a.jpeg

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Just now, xKSNx said:

image.jpeg.10d913ea1c7727192c9b217e1301ad6a.jpeg

 

bf63b681340c023a8bee25375836a2d3-png.jpg

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Moskva fires almost twice as slow. Moskva is good at long range and DM is good at close range. There are not many ships that will win from a DM under 10km, but it needs a specific play style that not everyone likes.

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35 minutes ago, LemonadeWarrior said:

Moskva fires almost twice as slow. Moskva is good at long range and DM is good at close range. There are not many ships that will win from a DM under 10km, but it needs a specific play style that not everyone likes.

I guess, maybe I just need a break and try some new modules/ ships. So far it feels more like any cruiser has a good chance beating you since they can pop smoke or torp you. While those things are still available against BB a DM is toast.

Most of my encounters against cruisers lately run like this: I surprise them, and if I am lucky I get a citadel or 2, after which they turn bow onto me, full speed and finally torp me....

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19 minutes ago, Doomwaffel said:

I guess, maybe I just need a break and try some new modules/ ships. So far it feels more like any cruiser has a good chance beating you since they can pop smoke or torp you. While those things are still available against BB a DM is toast.

Most of my encounters against cruisers lately run like this: I surprise them, and if I am lucky I get a citadel or 2, after which they turn bow onto me, full speed and finally torp me....

If you are playing a DM well, the scenario you just described is nearly impossible. All you have to do is reverse and stay bow in and keep flinging AP at them. If they are nose in, aim for the turrets. If they show a little bit of side and are close-ish, switch to HE for a salvo and aim for the torpedo tubes, then go back and check if they got baited into going broadside. It is suicidal to pick a close range fight with a dm, and if you truely "surprised" a cruiser, they would end up sub 50%, before being able to angle to you enough to where you won't get full pens/citadels.

You are not playing the ship correctly. Even as a battleship if you don't oneshot a DM at close range you are likely to go sub 20% or even die in some cases because the DPM and AP are just that good. The DM is a very good brawler, but that does not mean u can use your third turret in brawls. You just out-dpm with front guns and don't pick brawls with battleships with 400+mm guns.

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8 minutes ago, CptJackSparrowed said:

If you are playing a DM well, the scenario you just described is nearly impossible. All you have to do is reverse and stay bow in and keep flinging AP at them. If they are nose in, aim for the turrets. If they show a little bit of side and are close-ish, switch to HE for a salvo and aim for the torpedo tubes, then go back and check if they got baited into going broadside. It is suicidal to pick a close range fight with a dm, and if you truely "surprised" a cruiser, they would end up sub 50%, before being able to angle to you enough to where you won't get full pens/citadels.

You are not playing the ship correctly. Even as a battleship if you don't oneshot a DM at close range you are likely to go sub 20% or even die in some cases because the DPM and AP are just that good. The DM is a very good brawler, but that does not mean u can use your third turret in brawls. You just out-dpm with front guns and don't pick brawls with battleships with 400+mm guns.

Thanks, I will try some new ways of playing.

While we are at it, what capatain skills do you prefer on the DM?
1p - prio target
2p - turret traverse
3p - superintendant
4p - concealment

the usual so far, but what beyond that? Dem.Exp. doesnt really do much on T10 I heard, Inertia Fuse doesnt seem to be a reasonable pick either...
A.rush is good for 2 points I guess.
SE for some HP more ? 3.5k doesnt seem much, but it can make the difference
Or just all into AA again? BFT+ AFT
Radio location ? might make sense if I dont run radar, but again, usually I dont want to get so close. ^^
Vigilance ?...

A bit lost right now.

Modules:
I am currently testing modules: Accuracy (instead of AA range) and gun range module, rest is standart

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5 minutes ago, Doomwaffel said:

Thanks, I will try some new ways of playing.

While we are at it, what capatain skills do you prefer on the DM?
1p - prio target
2p - turret traverse
3p - superintendant
4p - concealment

the usual so far, but what beyond that? Dem.Exp. doesnt really do much on T10 I heard, Inertia Fuse doesnt seem to be a reasonable pick either...
A.rush is good for 2 points I guess.
SE for some HP more ? 3.5k doesnt seem much, but it can make the difference
Or just all into AA again? BFT+ AFT
Radio location ? might make sense if I dont run radar, but again, usually I dont want to get so close. ^^
Vigilance ?...

A bit lost right now.

Modules:
I am currently testing modules: Accuracy (instead of AA range) and gun range module, rest is standart

There are a few different ways to run Des Moines. Personally I like to run RoF module as most of my impactful damage is done within 15.8km range. Her floaty shell is really not that effective at long range. In addition, your detection radius after firing remains 15.8km. This makes stealth firing from behind island and disengaging easier.

For skill points, I run the following

1. PT + IFA. The ship is squishy. The combination of these two skills really improve my survival awareness.

2. EM. Turret traverse to offset the penalty from RoF module

AR. Pretty much a must-have skill on all cruisers.

3. SI + DE. Nothing to say here

4. CE. Again, regular choice.

Last 3 points can be anything. I am currently running Vigilance to help me in close range combat vs torpedo ships.

SE is a fine choice as well. You can also run something like EL/PM + JoAT

For modules, I run AA range instead of accuracy. Accuracy does help against DDs. But AA range helps you shoot down those nasty planes that keep you spot. 

I also run propulsion mod 2. I find it in general more useful than rudder shift. Due to her fast RoF, you are not likely to dance on open water with rudder shift.  Propulsion mod helps you bait shots and then speed up again, or just straight up charge into island to take cover.

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13 minutes ago, Doomwaffel said:

Thanks, I will try some new ways of playing.

While we are at it, what capatain skills do you prefer on the DM?
1p - prio target
2p - turret traverse
3p - superintendant
4p - concealment

the usual so far, but what beyond that? Dem.Exp. doesnt really do much on T10 I heard, Inertia Fuse doesnt seem to be a reasonable pick either...
A.rush is good for 2 points I guess.
SE for some HP more ? 3.5k doesnt seem much, but it can make the difference
Or just all into AA again? BFT+ AFT
Radio location ? might make sense if I dont run radar, but again, usually I dont want to get so close. ^^
Vigilance ?...

A bit lost right now.

Modules:
I am currently testing modules: Accuracy (instead of AA range) and gun range module, rest is standart

Per the video you don't wanna close in...you want to stay at long range & even start practicing w/spotter plane...& as opposed to priority target you wanna take incoming fire alert (or at least both)...which makes more sense.

Even if 10 ships are locked on you it doesn't mean they have an open shot or they may even be waiting to reload...IFA lets you know when rounds are coming down range (if you are far enough out) so you can rudder shift & it even cuts off once you are out of line of the incoming shells so you don't have to keep turning & lose extra momentum after it's safe to stop turning.

Makes it easier to lock on a target when you know when the others ships are firing w/out having to look around so much. Not that you shouldn't keep looking around...but in situations where you know it's only 1 or 2 ships besides the 1 you are engaged with (& if played from far out there shouldn't be many more than that at any 1 time) it gives you that extra warning.

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41 minutes ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

Is radar a must? Is it recommended over all the other options for consumables?

Usually its good, but I want to try spotter plane + accuracy build to see how it goes.
And depending on how that goes, a RoF module.

Edited by Doomwaffel

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3 hours ago, Doomwaffel said:

I will try the spotter plane/ accuracy module. Maybe it helps getting into another mindset.

 

I'm suspicious of that video. I think it might be a troll post designed to increase the memes in random battles.

I know it seems hard to imagine that our dear boi Yuro would do this to us, and if my suspicion is true it would definitely rank amongst the top 10 anime betrayals of all time, but the derpy play style, the fact that many of the clips he uses don't follow that play style, saying that 30mm deck will keep you safe and the silly captain recommendations he gives (recommending IFHE but not AR!? Madness!) all seem highly suspicious to me.

 

As for how to play the DM, it has different tools for dealing with each ship class.

Against DDs you use islands to get in close, then radar/hydro/ridiculous DPM to pulverise them. Radar mod is recommended.

Against CA/CLs, I recommend using islands to close into medium range, and then to use your AP to pummel them. By what you've said you're clearly doing something wrong on the micro level, but what exactly is hard to say. Note that you have superheavy AP shells which allow you to overmatch armour at anything up to 60 degrees (I think). This means that if an enemy cruiser turns to fire torps or even to use their rear guns, you are able to overmatch through their bow straight into their citadel (again, at 60 degrees!). Note that it is important you hit the bow, not the belt armour. If the enemy is bow-on, use HE at >8km, or AP at <8km to take out their turrets. Use island cover, your superheavy shells, or reverse gear to avoid torpedoes. You also have an excellent rudder shift. Use this to dodge shells between 12-6km, and torpedoes at anything less than that. Seriously, if an enemy cruiser torpedoes you in a brawl it means you've already missed a perfect opportunity to citadel dev strike them. DM is simply one of the best brawlers in the game.

That all said, dealing with BBs is going to be your chief concern and what dictates your overall strategy. At the beginning of the match seek island cover (over time you will learn pretty specific locations on each map that can be used for this) and hide behind them, preferably somewhere that you can harass enemy DDs. It is important that you not be too close to the island so you can still fire over the island, and that you angle yourself so that you can push both sides of the island using only your forward gears. You then burn down anything that is spotted or AP anything that is broadside (including the superstructure of BBs) until no BBs are left or your own team's BBs are pushing up. If enemy BBs are able to push your island, back away around it while continuing to shoot them. If enemy BBs push both sides of your island it is important that you recognise this threat early and relocate. Note that 'pushing your island' doesn't just mean them coming closer; it could also be them spreading out to get cross fires on you. Once enemy BBs have been dealt with there is generally nothing (except Hindys) that you can't deal with at medium-close range, so be aggressive.

Never fight in open waters. Never get into a HE spamming battle with enemy CAs at long range. Never hug your island so hard that you don't have a quick escape route. Never fight BBs fairly (they can overmatch your bow AND your upper hull side.

 

Oh, and captain build! Here's my recommendation:

5b2b830b19f68_ScreenShot2018-06-21at12_50_32.png.3caa478c49fc4ab9bbea6b04ab63508f.png

Beyond this, you can take vigilance (then replace your hydro with defensive AA) for random battles, or Radio location/Jack of all Trades for ranked/clan battles.

 

Edited by senseNOTmade

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Yea, I had a hunch that something might be fishy about that video, but I was hoping that people would take me seriously and not make jokes when I ask for help.

Also: Demolition Expert? I know we pepper enemys but from what I read the T10 defense results in basically only 1 % higher chance. Not really worth 3 points. Or am I wrong on that?

Edited by Doomwaffel

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I dont know what it is, I only switched the AA for the accuracy upgrade and replaced radar with spotter airplane and all of a sudden I get citadel hits in almost every game.
Usually I barely ever got one and now ... 1st match 12 citadels... though that was likely some luck, but still.
Very odd, but I take it. XD

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7 hours ago, senseNOTmade said:

I'm suspicious of that video. I think it might be a troll post designed to increase the memes in random battles.

I know it seems hard to imagine that our dear boi Yuro would do this to us, and if my suspicion is true it would definitely rank amongst the top 10 anime betrayals of all time, but the derpy play style, the fact that many of the clips he uses don't follow that play style, saying that 30mm deck will keep you safe and the silly captain recommendations he gives (recommending IFHE but not AR!? Madness!) all seem highly suspicious to me.

It is 100% a Troll Video.  To get thoughtless Lemmings to do something counter to what the ship is good for.  You're stripping off Radar, a vital component in working around the caps and something DDs VERY MUCH HATE, and last I saw, DDs dictate if your team will win or lose.  So anything that makes the lives of enemy DDs harder is important.

 

Then there's the trait recommendations.  A series of "WTH, Eurobeat???"  LOOK AT THIS crap!

tNB7cO3.jpg

Half that sh*t is comedically off!  Few examples:

EM isn't necessary on High Tier USN Cruisers.

No AR????

Survivability Expert? :Smile_teethhappy:

IFHE?

RPF?

 

Someone in General Discussion asked if it was a good idea to remove Radar off DM.  I told him to ask the numerous DD players around here what they thought about the idea of DM taking off her Radar.  A quick glance about all the Anti-Radar threads should tell you that answer without even asking.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I don't think it is a troll video.

IMHO, that is the better style of DM in randoms compared to traditional island hugging.

I pretty much agree with all of what he said, except that I still prefer Radar to spotting aircraft.

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On 6/21/2018 at 4:12 PM, Exciton8964 said:

I don't think it is a troll video.

IMHO, that is the better style of DM in randoms compared to traditional island hugging.

I pretty much agree with all of what he said, except that I still prefer Radar to spotting aircraft.

Yuro was mentioned above, but his DM video was pretty compelling actually.  Of course Yuro is unicum+

Edit - didn't realize Yuro had a new one, must watch.  I am referring to:

 

Edited by WhiteRecon

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That irritating video aside: 
My lukcky citadel streak came to quick end and I barely get 1 citadel anymore if at all.

After playing the Des Moines up and down with different builds, reading tactics adjusting my play and all... I can now say the US line IS boring to play, to me at least. The lower US Tiers are slightly better because of reduced range overall and less accurate BBs. The Baltimore and alike can still do some things, but the DM is a glass canon in its purest form, or better a shot gun - hurts up close (torps hurt more though), but doesnt do much in the distance.
Guard your fleet, dont go alone, stay behind cover and surpress an area with your guns... thats about it. You push, you die, you get spotted you die... likely.

All in all its a heavy version of the Cleveland and I hated that ship already, while grinding up the Tiers I was hoping for something else.
Armor, Defence, range, accuracy... it all forces you into a supportive and extremely defensive role. Which I really dont like, since it means that I have to depend and wait for my team to make a move.
I am so sick of dying becaue a damn BB came around an island and just kills me, or a BB decides to shoot at me instead of the 5 other ships around me or that invisible 20km BB who citadels me with 1 bullet hit.... every game the same, except when I play so slow and careful, that its just no fun anymore. When every thought has to be: What if there is an enemy around the corner... easy answer, you are likely dead.
This plays like a very slow DD gunboat without any of the things that lets it survive and a citadel on top of it.

Strangely enough, though they have these big AP bullets, I get way more dmg from spreading fires on BBs unless I can shoot AP at them broadside on and over a hill.

I have the IJN line too and those are way more fun. I am currently grinding the german cruisers up too and they are a lot better as well. They at least land the bullets in the area where I want them to.

I get that this is what wargaming wants the US line to be, but man does it not feel good.

 

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On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 2:35 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It is 100% a Troll Video.  To get thoughtless Lemmings to do something counter to what the ship is good for.  You're stripping off Radar, a vital component in working around the caps and something DDs VERY MUCH HATE, and last I saw, DDs dictate if your team will win or lose.  So anything that makes the lives of enemy DDs harder is important.

 

Then there's the trait recommendations.  A series of "WTH, Eurobeat???"  LOOK AT THIS crap!

tNB7cO3.jpg

Half that sh*t is comedically off!  Few examples:

EM isn't necessary on High Tier USN Cruisers.

No AR????

Survivability Expert? :Smile_teethhappy:

IFHE?

RPF?

 

Someone in General Discussion asked if it was a good idea to remove Radar off DM.  I told him to ask the numerous DD players around here what they thought about the idea of DM taking off her Radar.  A quick glance about all the Anti-Radar threads should tell you that answer without even asking.

Have had more fun in my spotter plane dm than radar and not even noticing that much of a difference :3 SE is great lul and so is rpf

62395625_p0_master1200.jpg Duno what u on about not having radar has given me the freedom to do what I want when I want and its not a meme build as it works out to be quite good.

Edited by Schwi

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13 hours ago, Schwi said:

Have had more fun in my spotter plane dm than radar and not even noticing that much of a difference :3 SE is great lul and so is rpf

62395625_p0_master1200.jpg Duno what u on about not having radar has given me the freedom to do what I want when I want and its not a meme build as it works out to be quite good.

You can have GFCS2 in Slot 6 for the extra range that's needed and still have Radar, and still do the "I'm Liberated Meme" thing all you want.  And you don't strip your team of a vital consumable, Radar.

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12 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You can have GFCS2 in Slot 6 for the extra range that's needed and still have Radar, and still do the "I'm Liberated Meme" thing all you want.  And you don't strip your team of a vital consumable, Radar.

While I enjoyed some games where I throw bullets over 20km on BBs behind islands.... the CD is just way too long compared to the radar.
Also I am actually looking forward to the new upgrade now, the Rof upgrade does a little bit (0,7 seconds faster reload I believe) so its ok... range upgrade can be good in situations, usually you dont hit much on that range anyway, nor do you do a lot of dmg unless you get some good AP plunging fire on the weaker parts. So while none of those wow me, I welcome the new option to see if its any good.

Edited by Doomwaffel

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I just got a Tirpitz and I have to say that its way closer to what I thought the Des Moines would be like when I grinded the US cruisers up.
Strange, I was never a BB fan, but this one hits the spot for me and does what I wanted to do in the cruisers: Brawl!, Go in, push, and have a death zone in 10km around you filled with main battery guns, secondary and torps...

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