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BURN_Miner

I can sum up "some" of the BB brawling issues in 1 word

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"Ramming"

I knew in the last thread I was missing something, but my memory isn't that great anymore and until tonight, when it just happened in a 3 vs. 1 (2 DD's and an ARP BB) vs. me in my New Mexico did I remember.

Now, it was late game, there really wasn't a good chance we would win, but we were going down swinging. There were 2 DD's in our cap with the ARP pushing and I was the only one that stayed back to flush it while the other 2 teammates of mine went on to the enemies cap to try to kill the rest of them and cap theirs.

Their Agile broke early and I got a dev strike on him in the cap. The ARP got some longer range hits on me, but I saved my rounds for the DD that was still there. Then the DD started in with the torps.

He missed the first salvo and I started in his direction as smoke appeared, the ARP started in as well towards the smoke. Another set of torps comes and the mistake of HE. He missed with the torps, hit with the HE and I fired back at the HE coming from the DD and hit.

ARP is still on a collision course for me... Now at this point I have no repair parties and am at 1.3 health or just under (it's late game). This ARP is almost full health as he has been camping all match. Sure enough, he just puts his pants on his head and rams me... I in turn say my usual, which is "really? ramming? come on, pathetic." This is about as harsh as I get. I throw in the pathetic to discourage ramming because, yes it takes an ship out of the match, however it takes them out of the match as well and who knows, they may have lived, why not go down swinging instead of suiciding?

This is where he goes on and on about "viable tactic" and the DD chimes in about me commenting about it. Again, I say yes, it's a viable tactic, but they should have had me dead to rights with a 3 vs.1. He nor the ARP saw it that way...

So I have to ask, is brawling dead? Is ramming now "the go to"? I ask this because I actually do see this more and more. It's not just in certain tiers, I've seen it up in 10's. Heck, I've seen people ruin a good brawl by ramming an opposing ship that was brawling... Sadly, he was full health as well and like this ARP, said "viable strat bro"....

 

I know this came off a bit raging, it wasn't meant to, but it is a serious question. Do people like myself think twice sometimes about not engaging in a brawl due to being rammed? Personally, I have only rammed a DD once or twice while in a BB and that has been while they were beached. I lived though. I have never rammed another ship in order to take them out as a last ditch effort. I have always tried to either go down swinging on the ship I am engaged with, find a more vulnerable ship before I die or find some way to survive - something productive for the team.

Oh, here was the match.

5b2b43a70fa0b_NewMexrammed2.thumb.jpg.0f2d0be79c19fe9de9c461b0e3320e57.jpg

5b2b434f70d77_NewMexrammed.thumb.jpg.fe10e3b275dbfec9b69262fe9ae9e8d9.jpg

 

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I'm not going to question the cognitive function of battleship players. I'm scared of what I might find. 

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Personally i will only attempt to ram if very low, or losing the brawl. Only if it strategically benefits me/the team. I notice this who have poor aim or like your kongo did nothing and are trying desperately for a kill do it. Most times if i get rammed it’s because of a failed bait to ram, meaning i expected it but could not avoid it.

you should take it as a compliment because as shown by all the achievements you earned it means they perceived you as a real threat and p@@d themselves trying to kill you before you could them, which given your achievements you may well have.

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Nah.

Most players I've seen purposely ram only when they are severely outmatched or outnumbered, with a significant HP disadvantage. It should also be noted that the ARP BB was significantly less protected and lighter-armed than you were, and if the angle was too dangerous he may have been Devstruck without taking out any other ship. Just think of it as free damage.

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There was probably no way you were going to get out of that with a win regardless of whether they rammed you or not. From what you described they were pretty much going to win anyways. Ramming you was just a lazy way to ensure that. I guess he didn't want to brawl an almost dead new mexico. 

 

Yes...there are a lot of stupid throw-your-ship-away rammings. There are also BB players more than willing to brawl it out. I'm more annoyed by the ones that ram for the kicks but I've seen a fair amount of ships willing to square off and brawl to. It is what it is.

I try to dish out damage right up until the very last second before impact IF I'm going to ram. The only BB I play with any kind of frequency are the Gneisenau and Tirpitz. So you can imagine what it looks like up until that very last second before impact. Pumping out shells, aiming secondary guns, throwing peeds, angling to squeeze out one more main gun salvo. If I do it well enough I can take down 3-4 ships on my way in for that ram. It just doesn't make any sense to aim myself and NOT use all the tools I have to work with. 

Edited by Vekta408

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There are only four times I will go for the ram:

  1. I have no practical way of escaping an engagement alive and hope to take someone down with me (preferably of highest health possible)
  2. It's the alternative to eating multiple torpedoes (although that would mean I've already messed up tremendously)
  3. The battle is lost and I'm just hoping to add a bit more damage before I die
  4. There is only one enemy ship left and I just want to have some fun
Edited by Avenge_December_7
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I think it has more to do with the lack of knowledge about proper battleship jousting. Which is where you push in close quarters but avoid the 'ram' and instead aim for the other BBs broadside. This isn't such an easy maneuver to pull off though as it requires knowing how to avoid an enemy attempting a ram, timing on when you let salvos loose(so you're not reloading as you pass) and pre-turning your guns so you're not trying to get them on target as you pass(since at distances of 3km and less, a pass at full or 3/4 speed will out pace your turret traverse speed).

I've been doing this fairly successfully in Richelieu when I do push in close quarters with another BB. Once I even successfully pulled it off in a cyclone against a Baltimore and Nagato, then went on to brawl(read: joust) a Richelieu shortly after passing the Nagato. All three of them ended up dead(thank you teammates) and I came out able to repair back to 50% HP. But I do believe that most BB players don't realize how effective good battleship jousting is, and instead opt for a ram since it's a 'guaranteed' enemy sunk.

As for ramming, it should only be a viable tactic if you're definitely going to go down. Which usually means that your brawling opponent has more HP than you, but it could also mean that you're in CQC with more than one ship, so it's better to guarantee you take at least one with you.

Edited by GhostSwordsman
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Brawling in a BB is all about agility.  New Mexico is a poor brawler for that reason.

Most of the time when somebody attempts to ram me because they are losing a brawl, I am able to turn inside their tactical diameter.  They miss their ram and die.  If I'm in Scharn, Gneis, or Tirpitz, it also earns them a nice torp salvo for their efforts.

New Mexico is too slow and too cumbersome to brawl.  Her sweet spot is about 12km - 14km.

The agility of the Massachusetts will be a HUGE advantage in brawling that I don't think people are seeing.  That's why Alabama can brawl pretty effectively today, and Mass is even faster to come about apparently.  When you can expose all your turrets fire then turn back before they can return fire. . . that's the key to success.

But they will learn.   They will learn. . . .

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4 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Brawling in a BB is all about agility.  New Mexico is a poor brawler for that reason.

Most of the time when somebody attempts to ram me because they are losing a brawl, I am able to turn inside their tactical diameter.  They miss their ram and die.  If I'm in Scharn, Gneis, or Tirpitz, it also earns them a nice torp salvo for their efforts.

New Mexico is too slow and too cumbersome to brawl.  Her sweet spot is about 12km - 14km.

The agility of the Massachusetts will be a HUGE advantage in brawling that I don't think people are seeing.  That's why Alabama can brawl pretty effectively today, and Mass is even faster to come about apparently.  When you can expose all your turrets fire then turn back before they can return fire. . . that's the key to success.

But they will learn.   They will learn. . . .

meanwhile mass citadel will make that brawling much more costly than german bbs.

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7 hours ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

There are only four times I will go for the ram:

  1. I have no practical way of escaping an engagement alive and hope to take someone down with me (preferably of highest health possible)
  2. It's the alternative to eating multiple torpedoes (although that would mean I've already messed up tremendously)
  3. The battle is lost and I'm just hoping to add a bit more damage before I die
  4. There is only one enemy ship left and I just want to have some fun

Basically this. If it is a big advantage to my team and helps win I will absolutely do it. Otherwise I seek to avoid ramming....

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17 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

meanwhile mass citadel will make that brawling much more costly than german bbs.

Not really.  It's got the same citadel as Alabama.  I don't take citadel hits in a brawl using Alabama because as I just explained, you use your agility to get 3 turret shots on them, while they only get to return fire at your bow because you turn back before they can reload.  I beat Bismarck's and Tirpitzes in brawls all the time.  Massachusetts will turn faster and have the nasty secondaries to back you up.

I don't see why so many people don't get this, even when I explain it.   I guess that's why some people "get" brawling. . . and some people sit in the back and snipe.

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Did he honk before he rammed you?   Gotta honk before you plow into someone.

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My question is why would you NOT do it if your most likely gonna be sent to Davey Jones? You get the flags, and 99% of the time you sink what you hit. So if you have over committed, or your team as evaporated around you and your soloing it, death is imminent, all ahead flank speed Mr Spock.If I'm lower tier than my target (BB of course), and I know that the engagement is going south I will ALWAYS ram. Trading a T8 for a T9/10 is 4 thumbs up in my neck of the galaxy.

 

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2 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

Not really.  It's got the same citadel as Alabama.  I don't take citadel hits in a brawl because as I just explained, you use your agility to get 3 turret shots on them, while they only get to return fire at your bow because you turn back before they can reload.  I beat Bismarck's and Tirpitzes in brawls all the time.

I don't see why so many people don't get this, even when I explain it.   I guess that's why some people "get" brawling. . . and some people sit in the back and snipe.

the moment you angle to use the 3 turrets,a competent player would shoot the belt armor,of course most marcks and tirps players i fight are the epitome of baBBies.

the german BBs don't have that problem,they can show their broadside,no,they can remove all their armor and expose the citadel and the shells still won't hit it,unless you get some kind of elder god blessing your shells so they break the laws of wows physics.

wait,what range is that brawl anyway?

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11 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

the moment you angle to use the 3 turrets,a competent player would shoot the belt armor,of course most marcks and tirps players i fight are the epitome of baBBies.

the german BBs don't have that problem,they can show their broadside,no,they can remove all their armor and expose the citadel and the shells still won't hit it,unless you get some kind of elder god blessing your shells so they break the laws of wows physics.

wait,what range is that brawl anyway?

No he won't because you wait for him to shoot before making your turn. . . and there's no getting around the 28 - 30 second reload.  Time is a [b1tch.

Under 10km.  Usually under 8 so the Alabama secondaries can get into play.

Look if you don't have brawling skills that's fine. Hang back back past 14km or hump an island.  Definitely don't buy Massachusetts.  Meanwhile I will be enjoying my new brawling overlord.  I'm close to a 61% win rate with Alabama using her as a brawler..   Brawl-kill-cap is generally how it goes.  So 61% will be my baseline target for Massachusetts.

Edit - that's the other hidden secret of brawling.  When you push up close, brawl, and win, you generally are in a position to cap an objective and tilt the game in your team's favor.

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Ramming scares me, so I've been trying to learn the "u-turn" tactic.

 

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1 minute ago, TheDreadnought said:

No he won't because you wait for him to shoot before making your turn. . . and there's no getting around the 28 - 30 second reload.  Time is a [b1tch.

 

like i said "competent players",not baBBies that are trigger happy.

but hey if we are throwing stats here,that's fine.

you can buy your troglodyte meme ship,meanwhile my 63% win rate alabama with better frag and 71.473 average damage,will stay fighting at 14km and hugging island.

fair seas brother.

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It is a chess game...you need to keep removing opponents pieces from the game to win or timer runs out with points determining factor. A good chess player will assess the game board and if the situation arises I will always trade a Queen for a Queen...many people resign a chess match if they lose their Queen. Last Ram me in Monty about half health brawling a full health Yamato in the middle of the map....situation was looking grim taking fire from all sides made a turn star then back to port full steam ahead...the Yamato complimented me on a move he did not expect taking him with me. Queen for Queen.:cap_rambo:

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4 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

like i said "competent players",not baBBies that are trigger happy.

but hey if we are throwing stats here,that's fine.

you can buy your troglodyte meme ship,meanwhile my 63% win rate alabama with better frag and 71.473 average damage,will stay fighting at 14km and hugging island.

fair seas brother.

LOL so you're just going to hold your fire while I pepper you with my bow batteries.  Go ahead.  Eventually, you will fire while I'm loaded, and then it's all over for you.

Hey. . . I didn't claim brawling was the best way to pad your stats.  It's not.  if you want to hump islands and spam AP, go right ahead.  rack up those damage numbers, the kill snipes, and all that other crap that people seem to care about.

I'm just making the argument that you can run Alabama (and now Massachusetts) as a brawler and do very well in her.  Despite people like yourself who are clueless about brawling saying it can't be done.

This should come as no surprise since you don't even own a Tirpitz.  Morover, all your most played ships tend to be stand off snipers.  You really don't have a clue when it comes to brawling.

Look at my most played ships:

Tirpitz - Brawler (not as good as my Alabama BTW)

Scharnhorst - Brawler

Warspite - Brawler

Alabama - Brawler.

You have to get all the way down to KGV before you get to a "stand-off" ship on my list.

Meanwhile, yours:

Dunkerque - Bow camper

Schors - Cruiser

North Carolina - Bow camper

Ognevoi - DD

Gneisenau is the first ship that could be a brawler on your list.  But given your other ships, I'm guessing you stand-off with her too.

Look I'm not trying to change your game.  Keep up your boring, bow-camping ways.  But Massachusetts will be a fantastic brawler whether you like it or not.  

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

LOL so you're just going to hold your fire while I pepper you with my bow batteries.  Go ahead.  Eventually, you will fire while I'm loaded, and then it's all over for you.

Hey. . . I didn't claim brawling was the best way to pad your stats.  It's not.  if you want to hump islands and spam AP, go right ahead.  rack up those damage numbers, the kill snipes, and all that other crap that people seem to care about.

I'm just making the argument that you can run Alabama (and now Massachusetts) as a brawler and do very well in her.  Despite people like yourself who are clueless about brawling saying it can't be done.

This should come as no surprise since you don't even own a Tirpitz.  Morover, all your most played ships tend to be stand off snipers.  You really don't have a clue when it comes to brawling.

Look at my most played ships:

Tirpitz - Brawler (not as good as my Alabama BTW)

Scharnhorst - Brawler

Warspite - Brawler

Alabama - Brawler.

You have to get all the way down to KGV before you get to a "stand-off" ship on my list.

Meanwhile, yours:

Dunkerque - Bow camper

Schors - Cruiser

North Carolina - Bow camper

Ognevoi - DD

Gneisenau is the first ship that could be a brawler on your list.  But given your other ships, I'm guessing you stand-off with her too.

Look I'm not trying to change your game.  Keep up your boring, bow-camping ways.  But Massachusetts will be a fantastic brawler whether you like it or not.  

 

 

 

 

 

you forgot my bismarck,scharnhorst,oct revolution,my warspite,my monarch.

now staying at mid range is pad statting?whatever,as long my performance is better and  i survive more.

don't tell me about brawling while my "bow camper" is doing a better job than your warspite,or how with less games my "brawling" ships are close to yours.

seriously,you are only digging yourself deeper. once again,no one is stopping you from buying ships designed for meme builds,i like to look at performance,not ribbons.

thanks and have fun.

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Ramming is a tactic, plain and simple.

Use it to advantage.  Avoid it when it's not to your advantage.  The former is often a no brainer. The latter...that often requires much more experience...as when it's BB to BB, it is usually easier to ram someone than to avoid a ram.  Avoiding a BB ram requires a player to mentally look much further into the future.  I'm not talking seconds to react...I'm talking minutes...sometimes SEVERAL minutes!!!! 

React too late, and there is nothing you can do to avoid it other than hopping the rammer is killed before he executes the ram.  A classic example is the charge ram of a bow camper.  A camper can't back up faster than a rammer can charge in.  And for those who play BB, you know it can take several minutes to go from reverse, to forward, to turn, and then gain enough velocity to avoid a charging BB.  That's right...you gotta have that throttle pegged forward several minutes ahead of time to ensure you can avoid it.

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Nah,  brawling is still alive.  Its not as common as it used to be but I still force many of brawls.  I've also gotten really,  REALLY good at dodging attempted rams.  

That being said though,  as has been stated,  ramming is a viable tactic.  You...really probably shouldn't do it if you are going to survive the encounter.

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22 minutes ago, Cruxdei said:

you forgot my bismarck,scharnhorst,oct revolution,my warspite,my monarch.

now staying at mid range is pad statting?whatever,as long my performance is better and  i survive more.

don't tell me about brawling while my "bow camper" is doing a better job than your warspite,or how with less games my "brawling" ships are close to yours.

seriously,you are only digging yourself deeper. once again,no one is stopping you from buying ships designed for meme builds,i like to look at performance,not ribbons.

thanks and have fun.

None of which are top played ships for you.  Just things you try once in a while.  I'm guessing you don't even really brawl in them.  You just "brawl" from out past 10km.  Which is why you're clueless about brawling.

Players like you are exactly the kind of player this thread is about.

  • Someone like me, who specializes in brawling forces you into a brawl.
  • You start to get clobbered.
  • In a panic you go for the ram
  • I dance out of your way, and finish you off with a point blank broadside (or torps) as we pass.

It happens time after time after time after time.  Like clockwork.

But don't worry.  There's only the one of me. . . and a few others out there who like to do the same thing.  So you are free to stat pad and bow camp your way to victory, secure in the knowledge that you'll very rarely run into one of us.

 

Enjoy!

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