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Vanessaira

USS Massachusetts, & the Need for USS Washington & HIJMS Kirishima

Sister or Clone Ships  

139 members have voted

  1. 1. Yes or No

    • Yes I support, and its okay to have more historical Sister (Clone) even if they do not add uniqueness or premium bonus'...
    • No I do not support, and too many non unique Sister ships will flood the game and be boring...

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Hi all, I wanted to talk to you all about something that I (and I know others) have felt is a glaring and important omission from this game.  Thats right, USS Washington and HIJMS Kirishima.  Two historic ships that took part in one of the last direct surface actions in history.  These ships were in part, tied to the larger conflict that was the Battle of Guadalcanal.  It resulted in some of the most horrific and savage naval combat in near modern history.  The battle between Washington and Kirishima was the last one on one battleship v battleship action and was the last time a battleship sunk another battleship as a direct result.  Not withstanding support form other ships.

Why do I bring all this up?  Well USS Massachusetts is in her public ready to release form and she offers something a bit different from the rest of the USN Battleship line.  Massachusetts is a brawling USN BB with enhanced secondary batteries, that are aided by increased range, rate of fire, and accuracy.  Her setup is not that much different to her sister USN battleships if one sets them up for the standard BFT/AFT AA builds.  While I am not going to go into a crazy in depth review, (I'll save that for LWM cause she does a much better job then I ever could) Massachusetts is a fun ship and a battleship that I rather enjoyed testing.  Most of you know that I am more of a Destroyer and Light Cruiser player so when it comes to battleships I often have a hard time producing that same results as many of you.  However with this ship, for the first time in a long time I was happy sailing about in a battleship.  

Rough preview and review:  USS Massachusetts is similar to USS Alabama though she trades notably trade main battery firing range and lower accuracy sigma (it is a bit noticeable at range), slight variations in AA defense more mid range less short range, slightly less torpedo defense, but most notably.  Massive Secondary Battery range and accuracy improvement.  She handles similar to Alabama and is quick on the rudder and agile to boot.

 

shot-18_06_19_00_19_19-0608.thumb.jpg.fcfa7f52ba9aeeccd1a74feb12dc0072.jpg

 

11.3 Max Secondary range.  11.3!!! and they hit often and well even with no Manual Secondary Fire Control and the negative penalties from Secondary Battery Mod and Secondary Signal.  With this setup and high concealment, you could virtually get close and when you were spotted, almost be in range to start showering people with ridiculous amounts of 5 inch shells.  It makes lurking and stalking into an advantage position fun and when the battle gets going.  Well, I think Sabaton did a great cover of Judas Priest "All Guns Blazing" and yeah.  I'll leave it at that.  Massachusetts may not be the ship for everyone or hardcore USN BB fans, but many of those USN BB players.  Tend to often use their concealment to their advantage and close within at the right time to annihilate their victims.

So we established that USS Massachusetts is a fun and different ship that has a close quarters brawling theme to it, but again why do I bring this all up?  Well, IT SHOULD BE USS WASHINGTON!!!  Not to lessen the importance of Massachusetts contribution to the war effort, but if any US Battleship should be released and setup in a unique way conducive to close quarters and brawling.  Then it should be none other then USS Washington, which did so actual.  Should I even mention the fact that we are starting to see Night Fighting Action in game with the Co-Op modes?!?

That then begs the question of, well how do we get this ship in game???  I here in present to you my idea for accomplishing just that.  I feel an eventual campaign system featuring two ships (Washington & Kirishima)for players to acquire would be the most ideal way to go about this.  It could avoid the premium shop or be released in a similar way that Graf Spee was while being in both the campaign and shop at the same time.  

 

shot-18_06.19_00_57.14-0908.thumb.jpg.74ad0dde7f67716fb2b50a1b7ce0423b.jpg

  

At the end of the long campaign one could earn both ships.  Wargaming could test the waters and see if this could be a good way to add future historical ships without the crazy feeling that there are too many needless sister ships in game.  In fact, I would argue that having sister ships allows fans of that class of ship to really enjoy the most of that type while maximizing premium and bonus'.  KMS Hipper and Prinz Eugen not withstanding, I feel that if Prinz Eugen would have been a campaign ship and not just a premium clone "at ship launch" would this even be an issue???

To address those who want unique differences.  Many of the player base have suggested that Washington could come in game with the 14 inch gun setup.  While unique, I would hate this for historical purposes.  A compromise here would be to at least offer both options.  All I am really asking for is to copy the USS North Carolina with small super structure changes, but pick a year setup for Washington and make slight changes based on that year.  (Late 42 would probably make the most sense ;D and radar <.<)  For Kirishima, a unique Night Fighting ability could be somehow added if WG wants to go there with future iterations of night time action.  Now I know many of you will probably go, well Van, you just want Washington because that's your home state.  Well partly but I think history speaks for itself with this ship and I would still argue just as stronly if the tables were turn historically for Washington and Massachusetts, or say even USS Indiana, etc.  I strongly feel that historical ships and ships of note like USS San Francisco, USS O'Bannon, and USS San Diego could be added in this way. 

 

In closing I am going to place up a poll and I want to ask for your support, or at least understand my position.  I am not asking that WG drop everything they are doing and immediately release these ships.  However I do want your support so that WG knows that this is something that people want in the future. With your help, we can have Washington, San Diego, O'Bannon, San Francisco and more, plus I believe that it can be done in a way that casual or non historical interested players wont cry, "NOT ANOTHER TIER 8 USN BB IN THE PREMIUM SHOP!!!" 

Thank you

<3

Edited by Vanessaira
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There are many missing ships in the game, but USS Washington is the most glaring hole based on its actual accomplishment. Understanding Massachusetts is still around and hold a special place in the hearts of many...  she didn’t sink another Battleship.

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1 hour ago, Vanessaira said:

Hi all, I wanted to talk to you all about something that I (and I know others) have felt is a glaring and important omission from this game.  Thats right, USS Washington and HIJMS Kirishima.  Two historic ships that took part in one of the last direct surface actions in history.  These ships were in part, tied to the larger conflict that was the Battle of Guadalcanal.  It resulted in some of the most horrific and savage naval combat in near modern history.  The battle between Washington and Kirishima was the last one on one battleship v battleship action and was the last time a battleship sunk another battleship as a direct result.  Not withstanding support form other ships.

Why do I bring all this up?  Well USS Massachusetts is in her public ready to release form and she offers something a bit different from the rest of the USN Battleship line.  Massachusetts is a brawling USN BB with enhanced secondary batteries, that are aided by increased range, rate of fire, and accuracy.  Her setup is not that much different to her sister USN battleships if one sets them up for the standard BFT/AFT AA builds.  While I am not going to go into a crazy in depth review, (I'll save that for LWM cause she does a much better job then I ever could) Massachusetts is a fun ship and a battleship that I rather enjoyed testing.  Most of you know that I am more of a Destroyer and Light Cruiser player so when it comes to battleships I often have a hard time producing that same results as many of you.  However with this ship, for the first time in a long time I was happy sailing about in a battleship.  

Rough preview and review:  USS Massachusetts is similar to USS Alabama though she trades notably trade main battery firing range and lower accuracy sigma (it is a bit noticeable at range), slight variations in AA defense more mid range less short range, slightly less torpedo defense, but most notably.  Massive Secondary Battery range and accuracy improvement.  She handles similar to Alabama and is quick on the rudder and agile to boot.

 

shot-18_06_19_00_19_19-0608.thumb.jpg.fcfa7f52ba9aeeccd1a74feb12dc0072.jpg

 

11.3 Max Secondary range.  11.3!!! and they hit often and well even with no Manual Secondary Fire Control and the negative penalties from Secondary Battery Mod and Secondary Signal.  With this setup and high concealment, you could virtually get close and when you were spotted, almost be in range to start showering people with ridiculous amounts of 5 inch shells.  It makes lurking and stalking into an advantage position fun and when the battle gets going.  Well, I think Sabaton did a great cover of Judas Priest "All Guns Blazing" and yeah.  I'll leave it at that.  Massachusetts may not be the ship for everyone or hardcore USN BB fans, but many of those USN BB players.  Tend to often use their concealment to their advantage and close within at the right time to annihilate their victims.

So we established that USS Massachusetts is a fun and different ship that has a close quarters brawling theme to it, but again why do I bring this all up?  Well, IT SHOULD BE USS WASHINGTON!!!  Not to lessen the importance of Massachusetts contribution to the war effort, but if any US Battleship should be released and setup in a unique way conducive to close quarters and brawling.  Then it should be none other then USS Washington, which did so actual.  Should I even mention the fact that we are starting to see Night Fighting Action in game with the Co-Op modes?!?

That then begs the question of, well how do we get this ship in game???  I here in present to you my idea for accomplishing just that.  I feel an eventual campaign system featuring two ships (Washington & Kirishima)for players to acquire would be the most ideal way to go about this.  It could avoid the premium shop or be released in a similar way that Graf Spee was while being in both the campaign and shop at the same time.  

 

shot-18_06.19_00_57.14-0908.thumb.jpg.74ad0dde7f67716fb2b50a1b7ce0423b.jpg

  

At the end of the long campaign one could earn both ships.  Wargaming could test the waters and see if this could be a good way to add future historical ships without the crazy feeling that there are too many needless sister ships in game.  In fact, I would argue that having sister ships allows fans of that class of ship to really enjoy the most of that type while maximizing premium and bonus'.  KMS Hipper and Prinz Eugen not withstanding, I feel that if Prinz Eugen would have been a campaign ship and not just a premium clone "at ship launch" would this even be an issue???

To address those who want unique differences.  Many of the player base have suggested that Washington could come in game with the 14 inch gun setup.  While unique, I would hate this for historical purposes.  A compromise here would be to at least offer both options.  All I am really asking for is to copy the USS North Carolina with small super structure changes, but pick a year setup for Washington and make slight changes based on that year.  (Late 42 would probably make the most sense ;D and radar <.<)  For Kirishima, a unique Night Fighting ability could be somehow added if WG wants to go there with future iterations of night time action.  Now I know many of you will probably go, well Van, you just want Washington because that's your home state.  Well partly but I think history speaks for itself with this ship and I would still argue just as stronly if the tables were turn historically for Washington and Massachusetts, or say even USS Indiana, etc.  I strongly feel that historical ships and ships of note like USS San Francisco, USS O'Bannon, and USS San Diego could be added in this way. 

 

In closing I am going to place up a poll and I want to ask for your support, or at least understand my position.  I am not asking that WG drop everything they are doing and immediately release these ships.  However I do want your support so that WG knows that this is something that people want in the future. With your help, we can have Washington, San Diego, O'Bannon, San Francisco and more, plus I believe that it can be done in a way that casual or non historical interested players wont cry, "NOT ANOTHER TIER 8 USN BB IN THE PREMIUM SHOP!!!" 

Thank you

<3

Great idea would love to have both ships in game, and the  "night fighting ability" for IJN Kirishima sounds like a terrific move, I have the ARP version of her and have always felt we should have Kongo Class premium.

plus 1 for this great proposal

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I'd like to see another Kongo / Myoko class without the anime stuff. I'm a bit of an anime fan but I really don't like the anime collaborations in the game.

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While I don't have anything specific against (slightly modified and thus not a 100% clone) sister ships (unless we already have like 4 of them, I'm looking at you, Fletcher) I would much, much rather see ships and nations represented that aren't in the game yet. With Nueve de Julio and Haida coming, it seems to me it's about damn time for Swedish ships like Tre Kronor or Dutch ships like Admiralen or De Zeven Provincien.

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Would like to see De Ruyter or De Zeven Provincien as well, @Lert. We can hope...

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I can get on board with the Washington.  I think if they wanted to make it unique they could give the Washington a dispersion or sigma bonus versus other battleships and a penalty versus other ship classes.  Not sure if the coding could work or not but would be interesting.  For Kirishima, why not reduce the detection after firing by x number of seconds?  This would play into the night bonuses and stealth package of the Japanese fleet.

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West Virginia would be nice too.

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Lert said:

While I don't have anything specific against (slightly modified and thus not a 100% clone) sister ships (unless we already have like 4 of them, I'm looking at you, Fletcher) I would much, much rather see ships and nations represented that aren't in the game yet. With Nueve de Julio and Haida coming, it seems to me it's about damn time for Swedish ships like Tre Kronor or Dutch ships like Admiralen or De Zeven Provincien.

I think there was a Swedish destroyer that was part of the British force during the Battle of North Cape. It was of a British design. That one can be implemented as a premium.

Will we get the option (at least have) of having Boise as USS Boise instead of Nuevo De Julio? Will its release be together with the light cruisers in 0.7.6?

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Biased because I want my USS Pennsylvania (preferably second USN branch, with her late war outfitting aka Arizona with a ton of AA :cap_haloween:) and USS Philadelphia (CL-41, Brooklyn Class) but I could get behind it. In regards to Kiri, perhaps (since it's a little similar to night fighting) it could have some enhancements that make it better during storms such as a slightly greater spotting range during one. 

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As much as I'd love to see Hiei, Haruna, Ashigara, Saratoga, and numerous others,  I personally would like to see more representation from navies other than IJN and USN.

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2 hours ago, NoZoupForYou said:

There are many missing ships in the game, but USS Washington is the most glaring hole based on its actual accomplishment. Understanding Massachusetts is still around and hold a special place in the hearts of many...  she didn’t sink another Battleship.

She may not have sunk the Jean Bart, but she did knock it out of action, and she did sink with help 2 French Destroyers and a cruiser. Also she fired the first and last 16" US Navy shell in WW2. Her career is pretty significant and well worthy of premium ship status. Personally i want to see all the major surface ships of WW1-WW2 in this game. 

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6 minutes ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

I think there was a Swedish destroyer that was part of the British force during the Battle of North Cape. It was of a British design. That one can be implemented as a premium.

Will we get the option (at least have) of having Boise as USS Boise instead of Nuevo De Julio? Will its release be together with the light cruisers in 0.7.6?

Norwegian actually, the Stord. Sweden was 'neutral' afterall. 

Stord definitely overshadows her less fortunate sister, Svenner. HMS Saumarez from the same class would be nice as a premium too. 

 

 

As for the point at hand, although in some cases it is unavoidable to have 'clones'. A sister ship premium, either through surviving to this day, or it's actions and fame in wartime. Massachusetts and Alabama are in the former category, and Washington is fairly famed, and would probably earn a spot if not for her half sisters more than likely taking a 3/4 representation. Maybe she will turn up in the future, maybe not. While it is nice to have little references in game to what ships did, it also doesn't mean they are pre-ordained for that playstyle or role. Such is the quibbles when dealing with a game that when it feels like it, gives zero care for historical reference. One look at the RN BB line proves that. Or the German BB line. 

Kirishima on the other hand I would firmly say no to. With Washington, there are no other sister ships other than North Carolina to compete against, and it remains to be seen if Washington can differentiate herself enough to find a place against the SoDaks. Kirishima on the other hand doesn't bring anything to the table bar her name, while her sister ships are also fairly renowned. In particular, the current T5 Kongo ends with Hiei and 1942, meaning Kongo or Haruna's 1945 AA riddled conditions are excluded. I would be more for including a T5 or T6 Haruna, on account of the more pronounced differences in AA. 

What I would suggest is that WG can create historical camouflages/skins to alter the ships model to that of a sister ship, thereby not over populating the game with premiums, and providing coverage for some famous sister ships that don't get their own premium space. Such camouflages can be distributed through missions, campaigns etc. with perhaps a premium ship at the end or so. 

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Seeing as the tech tree Kongo is actually Hiei, I would love to see a premium Kongo in her Leyte Gulf configuration. Alternatively, they could bring back her WW1 hull which I really miss.

1280px-Kongo1944.png

And hell yes to USS Washington.

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26 minutes ago, JSFWRX85 said:

She may not have sunk the Jean Bart, but she did knock it out of action, and she did sink with help 2 French Destroyers and a cruiser. Also she fired the first and last 16" US Navy shell in WW2. Her career is pretty significant and well worthy of premium ship status. Personally i want to see all the major surface ships of WW1-WW2 in this game. 

With no disrespect to the ship but come on Jean Bart was a incomplete stationary target with I think 1 operational turret hardly the stuff of legends this action was, she has merit for other actions true but 1 full strength BB against what amounts to a stationary single gun platform please

regards   

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I voted yes BUT I don't agree with the part about no Premium bonuses. A Premium ship should have reward bonuses/modifiers. Kind of the point.

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48 minutes ago, JSFWRX85 said:

She may not have sunk the Jean Bart, but she did knock it out of action, and she did sink with help 2 French Destroyers and a cruiser. Also she fired the first and last 16" US Navy shell in WW2. Her career is pretty significant and well worthy of premium ship status. Personally i want to see all the major surface ships of WW1-WW2 in this game. 

^^^ because this.  @JSFWRX85 said it succinctly and better than I could.  The USS Massachusetts would likely have finished off the Bart and sunk it, but the mission was the fleet, and they started to flee and almost got away. The Mass sank two.

I'm honestly starting to wonder if some of the fan base hate Big Mamie.  First the Alabama kerfuffle, and now just as the ship is about to be actually released* a proposal to rename it to the Washington?!?  sigh...

I'm ok with the Washington, the Maine, the Dutch ships, the Swedes all entering the game.   Just please leave the one ship I want (and Britney!) alone.

The Massachusetts has a significant historical record, and is a museum ship you can actually go visit.  Let's get her into game and leave the Halsey campaign alone (2 ships?  really?) and bring the other ships in subsequently.

And Admiral Thunder is correct, premiums need  to have a justification for why they are premium, or most wallets would stay padlocked.

 

* I have zero idea as to when this ship is coming out, but have hopes for July 4th.

Edited by nagasakee
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3 hours ago, Vanessaira said:

Hi all, I wanted to talk to you all about something that I (and I know others) have felt is a glaring and important omission from this game.  Thats right, USS Washington and HIJMS Kirishima.  Two historic ships that took part in one of the last direct surface actions in history.  These ships were in part, tied to the larger conflict that was the Battle of Guadalcanal.  It resulted in some of the most horrific and savage naval combat in near modern history.  The battle between Washington and Kirishima was the last one on one battleship v battleship action and was the last time a battleship sunk another battleship as a direct result.  Not withstanding support form other ships...

(snip)

Now I know many of you will probably go, well Van, you just want Washington because that's your home state.  Well partly but I think history speaks for itself with this ship...

Washington would either need radar, or some night fighting spotting range bonus that represents such.

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15 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Washington would either need radar, or some night fighting spotting range bonus that represents such.

Oh no, please, anything but another Radar BB. 

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40 minutes ago, tm63au said:

With no disrespect to the ship but come on Jean Bart was a incomplete stationary target with I think 1 operational turret hardly the stuff of legends this action was, she has merit for other actions true but 1 full strength BB against what amounts to a stationary single gun platform please

regards   

While its not on the level of Wash smashing Krisishima. She is still only 1 of 2 US fast BBs to engage and best an opposing Battleship as far as i know. And that stationary gun platform still had armor and 4 working 15" guns. It was still a target to be taken seriously even with its condition. 

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

While I don't have anything specific against (slightly modified and thus not a 100% clone) sister ships (unless we already have like 4 of them, I'm looking at you, Fletcher) I would much, much rather see ships and nations represented that aren't in the game yet. With Nueve de Julio and Haida coming, it seems to me it's about damn time for Swedish ships like Tre Kronor or Dutch ships like Admiralen or De Zeven Provincien.

To be completely fair to the Dutch and Swedish, while they have interesting and unique designs, that is the issue. 

Haida/Cossack worked out due to Haida being extremely frequently asked for years on end plus they could clone her and add Cossack. 

Boise works due to them already having the model of the class from the CL split. 

It’s a lot harder to justify from WG’s standpoint something completely unique when it’s only going to have a limited player appeal. Some Dutch ships like ZH-1 would have been a perfect way to add an interesting German and Dutch premium but instead we got T-61, the most generic and boring paper DD ever made.  

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8 minutes ago, Dunk_Master_Flex said:

It’s a lot harder to justify from WG’s standpoint something completely unique when it’s only going to have a limited player appeal.

Dutch WWII veterans like Admiralen, Gerard Callenburgh, Java or De Ruyter will have more mass appeal than Blyskawica did, yet Blyskawica is one of WGs more successful and beloved premiums.

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16 minutes ago, SireneRacker said:

Oh no, please, anything but another Radar BB. 

Say that all you want, with NC in the game there's no point to having Washington unless it gets that.

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7 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Say that all you want, with NC in the game there's no point to having Washington unless it gets that.

Bama / Mass shows that radar isn't the only way WG can distinguish sister ships.

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14 minutes ago, Lert said:

Dutch WWII veterans like Admiralen, Gerard Callenburgh, Java or De Ruyter will have more mass appeal than Blyskawica did, yet Blyskawica is one of WGs more successful and beloved premiums.

Again, Poland has a good 20+ million population advantage over the Netherlands alongside Blyskawica being a surviving museum ship. 

 

So mass appeal wise atleast in their their home countries? Not even close. Abroad is fair game since people can like whatever ships from whatever nations they want but again, WG is catering to these nations by adding their ships. 

 

I want ant to see Dutch and Swedish ships especially as much as the next guy but sometimes being a clone helps you get into WOWS a lot easier.

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