Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Avenge_December_7

Why Fire Prevention Over AA Skills? My Thoughts

27 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
1,865 posts
5,656 battles

After having fretted over whether to get fire prevention or advanced firing training on my 16-pt Iowa captain, I finally decided to go with fire prevention.

I admit, I have a rather undue attraction towards the anti-air skills like BFT, AFT, and MAA. Yet I have been forced to come to some unpleasant realities.

First off, as a CV player, I have realized that if you're in a BB, even if you're in a Montana and I'm in an Enterprise, I won't care very much about your AA. For all that you may do to boost it, there are quite a few factors that you simply can't overcome when fighting carriers no matter how much you boost your AA in a BB:

  • You can't maneuver to avoid a good drop: bombers are much faster than you, and will easily adjust their drop to compensate for any attempted evasion
  • You won't shoot them all down: no BB alone is going to be able to blunt an attack from a high tier CV all by his own. I've seen North Carolinas taunt me about their AA right before I shove nine of Taiho's torpedoes into their non-existent torpedo protection for a devastating strike. Even Montanas don't make me hesitate to attack them.
  • You can't mess up the drop: You know what DOES make a CV player hesitate? Fighters and defensive AA cruisers. Not only are they much more capable of shooting down bombers, but what makes them truly threatening is their ability to completely mess up an attack. A Hindenburg with defensive AA active is incredibly costly to attack, for very low reward. A Hindenburg without defensive AA active becomes a matter of how well can I aim my torpedoes.

So why fire prevention instead?

  • You will face HE firing ships 100% of the time in battle. You'll face CVs maybe once every five matches. It becomes a matter of which skill is more useful more often.
  • Fire prevention merges the superstructure fire zone, where you can normally light two fires, into a single one. It's incredibly difficult to burn down a BB with a single superstructure fire, and setting a fire on any other part of the ship (the bow or stern) is much more difficult.
  • 10% less fire chance: arguably the least useful part of the skill, but every bit against the rain of HE shells helps
  • Fire prevention also works against CVs: CVs love DOTing hapless BBs. You know what they don't love, especially USN CVs? Two dive bomber squadrons attacking a BB and only lighting a single fire. Especially when they try to flood you to death and you simply damage control it since one fire isn't close to life-threatening for a BB (if it is, then you've either misplayed badly or you're about dead anyways).

Ultimately, it comes down to which skill is more useful more often. You'll use the AA skills maybe once every 5 matches, all to kill a few more planes of a CV that most likely will do massive amounts of damage anyways. You'll use the fire prevention skill 100% of the time, including in CV matches.

Thus, as someone who is unreasonably biased towards AA skills and someone who is a CV player: take the smart option. Take fire prevention.

Edited by Avenge_December_7
  • Cool 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,774 posts

I usually go for aa on my us BBs with a 100 aa rating and I can turn enough so the bombers and toro planes can drop yea my Missouri’s aa will just melt planes.  That’s even with out the AA boost flag.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
98
[C-1]
[C-1]
Members
341 posts
6,559 battles

AA builds for BB's can mean the difference between eating a full wall of torps, or getting hit by one or two. Or mean the difference between being hit with 7 AP or HE bombs or being hit with 3 or less. Sure, AA builds are practically useless if/when you end up in a match without a CV, but if you are in a match with a CV. That added damage and one less plane to worry about does certainly count for something.

Luckily, as a added bonus, the extended range and added fire rate on your secondary guns through the commander skills works well with certain nations and even those that don't specialize in secondary builds (such as the USN ships) their secondaries can and sometimes do get to play a part during engagements.

Given, Fire Prevention is always a good idea regardless, it is far more easily managed and compensated for via proper timing and use of consumables than one could compensate for poor AA. I can deal with a few fires and HE shells flying my way, it's when I see a enemy CV's torpedo bombers or AP bombers heading my way that I remember just why I prefer having better AA.

Never have actually gone with a full AA build with all of the ship modules specifically to boost AA; but I do often go with the Cpt skills 3 and 4 that tie into AA and secondary guns equally, so they are my preferred setup. Only BB I've ever taken fire prevention with is my Bismarck because that one definitely needs it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
819 posts
3,823 battles

Take a little of both, you have enough room to improve both areas and then some for other areas. the best kind of battleship is one that can dish out the pain and won't go away no matter what you do to it.  :cap_haloween:

Edited by Magic_Fighting_Tuna

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
344
[ZIPPO]
Members
1,525 posts
3,515 battles

For me FP is a waste of 4 skill points, I'm a BB main and have rarely been in a situation where it would have helped me. The only times I'm burning that bad is because I made a bad play and having it wouldn't have helped anyways. For me it's a crutch for bad players that have no damage control management skills and understanding of ship positioning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28
[-CIV-]
Members
185 posts
2,243 battles
3 minutes ago, Psycodiver said:

For me FP is a waste of 4 skill points, I'm a BB main and have rarely been in a situation where it would have helped me. The only times I'm burning that bad is because I made a bad play and having it wouldn't have helped anyways. For me it's a crutch for bad players that have no damage control management skills and understanding of ship positioning

I'd disagree. FP opens up positions which would normally be suicidal, helping me tank more damage and hold ground long enough to push the enemy into a worse position.  And if I'm angling correctly and not showing broadside, most enemy BBs will be shooting HE at me anyway, making FP even more useful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
175
[70]
Members
961 posts
3,691 battles

I took FP for my 10th skill on all my BBs.

Mostly because I reach 10 points at tiers where concealment module is not yet a thing and thus can't be stacked with the stealth skill.

And I didn't appreciate Adrenaline Rush until I got my hands on Honore, that French guy with improved AR. Then I put it on my other BBs at 12 points or will when they get there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
344
[ZIPPO]
Members
1,525 posts
3,515 battles
3 hours ago, yungpanda said:

I'd disagree. FP opens up positions which would normally be suicidal, helping me tank more damage and hold ground long enough to push the enemy into a worse position.  And if I'm angling correctly and not showing broadside, most enemy BBs will be shooting HE at me anyway, making FP even more useful.

It's still suicidal because most HE slinging ships are penning you for damage, especially ones with IFHE. Heck I got wasted by a Cleveland for half my HP in my Amagi recently, he only started 2 fires but most his damage was HE pens

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,590
[E-E]
[E-E]
Members
15,602 posts
14,017 battles

With the whining about Carriers, I don't think AA is emphasized enough.  You cannot go 1 week on these boards without a dozen threads started specifically ranting about Carriers.  I watched in both PVP and PVE Battleships with excellent AA reputations under air attack.  I am very surprised to see something like North Carollina, Iowa shoot down maybe 1 plane when they should be shredding them.  They in turn get nuked by TBs & DBs.  I don't think Fire Prevention is going to save you from eating the damage from 9 torpedo bomber and a handful of dive bomber hits.

 

Personally, as a player that is a Cruiser Main but my Battleships are quickly catching up, very, very few of my BBs are Survival Builds.  The reason is I know how to deal with Fires and I am not one of those [edited] that pop DCP on one fire.  The single most important thing to mitigate fire is to not put yourself in a bad spot to get Focus Fired.  Do that and manage your consumables then everything is very manageable.

 

I also cheat a little with my AA Build High Tier USN BBs.  I slot both DCSM1 & 2, while still having my traditional USN BB AA Spec :Smile_honoring:

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,865 posts
5,656 battles
26 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

With the whining about Carriers, I don't think AA is emphasized enough.  You cannot go 1 week on these boards without a dozen threads started specifically ranting about Carriers.  I watched in both PVP and PVE Battleships with excellent AA reputations under air attack.  I am very surprised to see something like North Carollina, Iowa shoot down maybe 1 plane when they should be shredding them.  They in turn get nuked by TBs & DBs.  I don't think Fire Prevention is going to save you from eating the damage from 9 torpedo bomber and a handful of dive bomber hits.

 

Personally, as a player that is a Cruiser Main but my Battleships are quickly catching up, very, very few of my BBs are Survival Builds.  The reason is I know how to deal with Fires and I am not one of those [edited] that pop DCP on one fire.  The single most important thing to mitigate fire is to not put yourself in a bad spot to get Focus Fired.  Do that and manage your consumables then everything is very manageable.

 

I also cheat a little with my AA Build High Tier USN BBs.  I slot both DCSM1 & 2, while still having my traditional USN BB AA Spec :Smile_honoring:

I haven't given up on a AA-spec USN BB captain. I've only given up on my FIRST USN BB captain being AA-spec.

I'll probably configure on in the future when I have a lot more captain xp, but for now, my first 19 pt USN BB captain will be tank build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,590
[E-E]
[E-E]
Members
15,602 posts
14,017 battles
8 hours ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

I haven't given up on a AA-spec USN BB captain. I've only given up on my FIRST USN BB captain being AA-spec.

I'll probably configure on in the future when I have a lot more captain xp, but for now, my first 19 pt USN BB captain will be tank build.

I understand.  It's just when I see something like this happen to what should be a powerful AA BB...

I only shake my head.  Granted, this was the very powerful 15 TB Pre-Release version of Graf Zeppelin, but that NC was obviously not AA spec'ed and inflicted next to no losses on Aerroon's bombers.  That NC shot down only TWO bombers out of 15, and paid the consequences because it wasn't AA spec'd.  This isn't like Tirpitz where she couldn't even have a half-way decent AA Build even if it tried, NC is a good AA boat, but without the build dedication, it may as well be a Mutsu to a CV.

 

Late last night I watched an Iowa get attacked by a Hiryu.  I said to myself, "LOL Tier VI TBs against Iowa's Tier IX AA Spec?  The CV is stupid for doing that target."  Except I watched in amusement the very low bomber losses before they dropped their ordnance, she was obviously not AA Spec.  Again, I only shook my head.  When you watch an Iowa get slammed by Tier VI Torp Bombers because the AA wasn't improved, it's pretty sad :Smile_teethhappy:

 

On the flip side, when Lyon was brand new, I had that French Girl spec'ed into AA, sailed out into the open at the start of the match, firing my guns to show myself on the map, and hoping CVs would come after me.  I was in the open, alone, no friendly ships nearby, baiting CVs to come, and if they did, their bombers got rekt.

 

But you're a CV player.  You know all this stuff already.  It just makes fun forum typing.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,865 posts
5,656 battles
2 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

I understand.  It's just when I see something like this happen to what should be a powerful AA BB...

I only shake my head.  Granted, this was the very powerful 15 TB Pre-Release version of Graf Zeppelin, but that NC was obviously not AA spec'ed and inflicted next to no losses on Aerroon's bombers.  That NC shot down only TWO bombers out of 15, and paid the consequences because it wasn't AA spec'd.  This isn't like Tirpitz where she couldn't even have a half-way decent AA Build even if it tried, NC is a good AA boat, but without the build dedication, it may as well be a Mutsu to a CV.

 

Late last night I watched an Iowa get attacked by a Hiryu.  I said to myself, "LOL Tier VI TBs against Iowa's Tier IX AA Spec?  The CV is stupid for doing that target."  Except I watched in amusement the very low bomber losses before they dropped their ordnance, she was obviously not AA Spec.  Again, I only shook my head.  When you watch an Iowa get slammed by Tier VI Torp Bombers because the AA wasn't improved, it's pretty sad :Smile_teethhappy:

 

On the flip side, when Lyon was brand new, I had that French Girl spec'ed into AA, sailed out into the open at the start of the match, firing my guns to show myself on the map, and hoping CVs would come after me.  I was in the open, alone, no friendly ships nearby, baiting CVs to come, and if they did, their bombers got rekt.

Well, the good news is that I currently have a bunch of other USN BB captains in training.

  • 12 pt New Mexico captain currently sitting in Missouri
  • 8 pt captain in Arizona
  • 8 pt captain in Texas

I'm going to spec the 12 pt one to AA when he gets 16 points, but the question then becomes which battleship to place him in. My options (after my current 16 pt USN BB captain moves on to Montana) are Montana (when I get her), Iowa/Missouri, and North Carolina.

No, I don't intend on placing him in Arizona. Sorry Ari :Smile_sad:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40
[MLPVA]
Members
121 posts
2,775 battles

I take the AA skills because they're the same skills needed for the secondary builds for my German battleships. BFT and AFT both enhance secondary armaments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,865 posts
5,656 battles
1 hour ago, DarfTarts421 said:

I take the AA skills because they're the same skills needed for the secondary builds for my German battleships. BFT and AFT both enhance secondary armaments.

I'd imagine that the arguments for taking AFT/BFT are stronger on the German and French BBs than the others. There is definitely a case to be made for them.

Do note, however, that you won't find secondaries coming into play as often as the benefits from the tank build.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,590
[E-E]
[E-E]
Members
15,602 posts
14,017 battles
3 hours ago, Avenge_December_7 said:

Well, the good news is that I currently have a bunch of other USN BB captains in training.

  • 12 pt New Mexico captain currently sitting in Missouri
  • 8 pt captain in Arizona
  • 8 pt captain in Texas

I'm going to spec the 12 pt one to AA when he gets 16 points, but the question then becomes which battleship to place him in. My options (after my current 16 pt USN BB captain moves on to Montana) are Montana (when I get her), Iowa/Missouri, and North Carolina.

No, I don't intend on placing him in Arizona. Sorry Ari :Smile_sad:

Luckily for you, High Tier USN BBs tend to emphasize the same things.  Your higher point Montana captain you could freely swap in / out on Missouri with zero issues.  Hell, you could use the same captain for Montana, Missouri, and Texas.  The rest really depends on where you like to play.  If it was me, the other 12pt'er I'd send off to North Carolina because she's in a pretty good MM spot.  AZ is a Premium so you could still freely swap any captain in / out, so a Survival Build has merit for her because her AA and Secondaries are so bad that they're not worth bothering.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[BIER]
Members
58 posts
1,243 battles

Honestly, I do both FP and MFCAA on by US BBs, then pick the AA module.  I give up AFT for it. The 5"/38  really are insanely deadly against aircraft, and I'm not brawling in a US BB really.

MCFAA means you do have a REAL good chance of murdering two full squads of planes from an equal-tier CV before they can touch you. You can almost guarranty a minimum of a single full-squad death even against an up-tiered CV.

Generally, my US BB builds look like:

  1. PT
  2. EM
  3. SI
  4. FP
  5. MFCAA
  6. AR
  7. BoS (or rarely, BFT)

For my KM and French BBs, I'm picking FP for the most part, as I'm doing a secondary build. No MFCAA, and no BFT.  For the KM, the above build swapping AFT for MFCAA, and the French, getting AR instead of EM at #2, IFHE for MFCAA, and AFT+PM for the BoS+EM.

I don't really play RN or IJN BBs.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
102
[BSL]
Members
723 posts
14,333 battles
On 6/20/2018 at 1:09 AM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Luckily for you, High Tier USN BBs tend to emphasize the same things.  Your higher point Montana captain you could freely swap in / out on Missouri with zero issues.  Hell, you could use the same captain for Montana, Missouri, and Texas.  The rest really depends on where you like to play.  If it was me, the other 12pt'er I'd send off to North Carolina because she's in a pretty good MM spot.  AZ is a Premium so you could still freely swap any captain in / out, so a Survival Build has merit for her because her AA and Secondaries are so bad that they're not worth bothering.

My Halsey commands Texas, Zona, Bama, Mizzou, and Monty.

BFT and AFT work both for secondaries and AA (love me to double dip).:Smile_teethhappy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
697
[SPTR]
Members
20,095 posts
5,147 battles

I'm going to actually wager the fact that the reason why USN AA is bad to take is because the secondaries are. 

Almost every other BB line has better secondaries than the USN ones, the 5kn secondaries not only having horrid range but also relatively bad alpha, fire chance, etc. Other line BBs all have secondaries that are worth spending for, which allows for AA and Secondaries both to be buffed to a level of competence competitive with FP or an alternative, and have a good likelyhood for being used in many battles. Meanwhile, USN BBs with their AA firepower already being extremely good rely mostly on their main guns and thus spec for them, leaving their AA defenceless even if on paper they are extremely good.

I'd wager that for those who want better AA, they should spec their ship for module survivability: they take away from main armament survivability, but in exchange your AA will survive better getting hit by HE and will help sustain this AA without leaving you too disadvantaged in a non-CV battle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,494
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
3,795 posts

I never run fire prevention.  It really doesn't help that much.

Instead, I take High Alert, and sometimes JoAT as well, and will sometimes run the -5% consumable reload flag and/or reduced fire duration flags.

Bottom line. . . being able to extinguish fires with damage control repeatedly (and gain temporary immunity) is better than HOPING you don't get set on fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[BIER]
Members
58 posts
1,243 battles
5 hours ago, TheDreadnought said:

I never run fire prevention.  It really doesn't help that much.

Instead, I take High Alert, and sometimes JoAT as well, and will sometimes run the -5% consumable reload flag and/or reduced fire duration flags.

Bottom line. . . being able to extinguish fires with damage control repeatedly (and gain temporary immunity) is better than HOPING you don't get set on fire.

But that's discounting the main FP advantage: you will NEVER get set on fire in one of the 4 main locations.  In reality, it's better than that: the center superstructure area attracts far more hits than either the bow or stern, so you actually get set on fire even less. I generally see having FP reduces my fire damage taken by about a third. 

KM BBs in particular need FP to survive.  You can probably get away without it on US BBs, as they tend to be longer-range focused.  Upper-tier IJN Bbs need it, though, as they tend to attract a huge volumes of fire, and aren't really maneuverable enough to extract themselves from situation where HE rain is a problem.  French BBs are more player-dependent - I've found some need it, some don't.  The Richelieu needs it, as it's a tanker.  Lyon and Republique, not so much.  Alsace, yeah, as it's a brawler, it benefits quite a bit, but it competes with the other 4-point captain skills you want, so often it doesn't get taken.

 

Brawling BBs absolutely need FP to survive. You can't put out fires fast enough to stop taking massive damage when brawling, so having them NOT start in the first place is a huge deal.  And slower BBs will get burned down without it, as they can't pull themselves out of places when focused HE spam comes in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,494
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
3,795 posts
8 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

But that's discounting the main FP advantage: you will NEVER get set on fire in one of the 4 main locations.  In reality, it's better than that: the center superstructure area attracts far more hits than either the bow or stern, so you actually get set on fire even less. I generally see having FP reduces my fire damage taken by about a third. 

KM BBs in particular need FP to survive.  You can probably get away without it on US BBs, as they tend to be longer-range focused.  Upper-tier IJN Bbs need it, though, as they tend to attract a huge volumes of fire, and aren't really maneuverable enough to extract themselves from situation where HE rain is a problem.  French BBs are more player-dependent - I've found some need it, some don't.  The Richelieu needs it, as it's a tanker.  Lyon and Republique, not so much.  Alsace, yeah, as it's a brawler, it benefits quite a bit, but it competes with the other 4-point captain skills you want, so often it doesn't get taken.

 

Brawling BBs absolutely need FP to survive. You can't put out fires fast enough to stop taking massive damage when brawling, so having them NOT start in the first place is a huge deal.  And slower BBs will get burned down without it, as they can't pull themselves out of places when focused HE spam comes in.

That’s the ONLY advantage of it.   The “reduced fire chance” is so small it’s meaningless.

In the last thousand games I’ve played I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had 4 fires.   In those cases I was dead anyway... the burn damage was the least of my problems.

You’ll find with the greater ability to actually extinguish fires it’s rare that you ever have more than 1.

But stick with FP if you want to.   It’s just a trap.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[BIER]
Members
58 posts
1,243 battles
8 minutes ago, TheDreadnought said:

That’s the ONLY advantage of it.   The “reduced fire chance” is so small it’s meaningless.

In the last thousand games I’ve played I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had 4 fires.   In those cases I was dead anyway... the burn damage was the least of my problems.

You miss the point. Sure, you seldom have 4 fires running, so something that just capped you at 3 wouldn't help that much.

But you REGULARLY have 2 superstructure fires burning, because that's by far the easiest target for people to shoot at.  With FP, you eliminate 1 of those from happening.

In fact, FP saves you from having to run your Damage Control Party as often - you're usually only running 1 fire at all, so you don't even have to use DCP.

So, as a whole, FP means you probably burn 30-40% less than without it.

 

And you're calling FP a trap, when you call getting a 5% bump from JoAT as something worthy?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,494
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
3,795 posts
25 minutes ago, LAnybody said:

You miss the point. Sure, you seldom have 4 fires running, so something that just capped you at 3 wouldn't help that much.

But you REGULARLY have 2 superstructure fires burning, because that's by far the easiest target for people to shoot at.  With FP, you eliminate 1 of those from happening.

In fact, FP saves you from having to run your Damage Control Party as often - you're usually only running 1 fire at all, so you don't even have to use DCP.

So, as a whole, FP means you probably burn 30-40% less than without it.

 

And you're calling FP a trap, when you call getting a 5% bump from JoAT as something worthy?

Actually I almost never have 2 superstructure fires... or fires of any kind.  I extinguish them.

I’m not trying to convince you.  Do what you want.   Just pointing out that, not counting signals, for the exact same points you can get a 15% - 20% Reduction (depending on captain) in your repair party cool down and a 5% - 10% Reduction in the cooldowns of ALL your consumables.  Radar, repair party, torps, planes, hydro, what have you.

If you don’t think that’s worth the 4 points you would have spent on FP.  So be it.

I actually rarely bother with JoaT on a battleship because high alert + signal is enough usually.  Cruisers tend to have a lot more useful consumables, do I will often get it for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
175
[70]
Members
961 posts
3,691 battles

Whenever I see a battleship (usually German) that doesn't have FP and I'm driving a cruiser with HE, I am overjoyed at the easy 2 fires.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9
[BIER]
Members
58 posts
1,243 battles
On 6/27/2018 at 8:58 PM, TheDreadnought said:

Actually I almost never have 2 superstructure fires... or fires of any kind.  I extinguish them.

I’m not trying to convince you.  Do what you want.   Just pointing out that, not counting signals, for the exact same points you can get a 15% - 20% Reduction (depending on captain) in your repair party cool down and a 5% - 10% Reduction in the cooldowns of ALL your consumables.  Radar, repair party, torps, planes, hydro, what have you.

If you don’t think that’s worth the 4 points you would have spent on FP.  So be it.

I actually rarely bother with JoaT on a battleship because high alert + signal is enough usually.  Cruisers tend to have a lot more useful consumables, do I will often get it for them.

We're talking about BBs here, not cruisers, so that 5% reduction from JoAT (it's only 10% for the RN special captain) is useless. 

Prey tell how do you extinguish fires on a BB with any regularity?  DCP only runs for about 15-20 seconds, and you need at least 65+ seconds before you can run it again, even with premium consumables and skills.  Under fire from any cruiser, and you'll have 2 fires almost immediately.  They're not stupid. 

And many a BB tank build already goes for BoS over SI.

FP is mainly a BB skill, as BBs are simply huge targets, and on fire constantly. The ability to reduce that fire damage by 30% or more with what FP provides. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×