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Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu

Player psychology in battles.

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What I've started to notice in not only Standard mode, but pretty much all game modes, is a refusal of my team to push in even when there's an overwhelming numerical superiority (and points) and superior firepower. Even when pushing in with a fair amount of HP left would end the battle a lot more quickly, I notice I am often the only one going in and advancing the battle. Sure I often die, but even when I die I feel there's nothing to lose, and try to kill as many / deal as much damage as I can. Due to this, I often end up high on the scoreboard if not first. Are most players THAT afraid of dying, or even having their paint scratched?

   I also notice that recently, a lot of my EXP might have come from spotting / potential damage. Even in a ship like the Atlanta, I have to hold off 4-5 enemies at a time and defend my island for as long as possible while my team takes AGES capping, going around a flank, or just sits back. Even with this extremely dangerous move to buy them time so they can get their asses into the fight and win, I can STILL get 1st or 2nd place on the team. An Atlanta shouldn't have to be keeping 4-5 ships at bay. That's the job of the BBs and DDs.

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu
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Run into this a lot myself.  It's...baffling.  More than a few teams will throw away the win out of some weird paranoia.  Had one that we reached 5 to 10 in our favor, but team would not stop 'defending the cap' and were slowly picked off one by one until they took the win.

 

It's really silly when they scream how you suck for yoloing and dying first... even when you just killed over half the enemy team by yourself.  It's not how long you live folks, it's hte impact you make on the match.  I can die in the first five min, and still be near the top in the match.

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6 minutes ago, thegreenbaron said:

Run into this a lot myself.  It's...baffling.  More than a few teams will throw away the win out of some weird paranoia.  Had one that we reached 5 to 10 in our favor, but team would not stop 'defending the cap' and were slowly picked off one by one until they took the win.

That's the precise definition of snatching defeat from victory's jaws. In almost all of those cases had the team stuck together, pushed, and focus fired the enemy instead of going off and being so spread out due to this weird paranoia, those defeats would have been victories.

   I swear if I were an admiral IRL I'd skin the captains of those ships and boil them alive. What they need is not a chance to explain themselves in a martial court. What they need is to be exterminated under an IQ eugenics program.

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu
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31 minutes ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

What I've started to notice in not only Standard mode, but pretty much all game modes, is a refusal of my team to push in even when there's an overwhelming numerical superiority (and points) and superior firepower. Even when pushing in with a fair amount of HP left would end the battle a lot more quickly, I notice I am often the only one going in and advancing the battle. Sure I often die, but even when I die I feel there's nothing to lose, and try to kill as many / deal as much damage as I can. Due to this, I often end up high on the scoreboard if not first. Are most players THAT afraid of dying, or even having their paint scratched?

   I also notice that recently, a lot of my EXP might have come from spotting / potential damage. Even in a ship like the Atlanta, I have to hold off 4-5 enemies at a time and defend my island for as long as possible while my team takes AGES capping, going around a flank, or just sits back. Even with this extremely dangerous move to buy them time so they can get their asses into the fight and win, I can STILL get 1st or 2nd place on the team. An Atlanta shouldn't have to be keeping 4-5 ships at bay. That's the job of the BBs and DDs.

I have said this several times....too many players take that just stay alive advice overly seriously.  Way to seriously. Soooo they work on staying alive and they end up losing anyway cause they fail do do squat. Try and stay alive but if your guns are not in the fight you might as well be dead anyway. I was in a co-op match today...co-op! We had 3 BBs but the only killing that was done was by a great DD player (got 4), me in my Pensacola (got 2), and 1 other cruiser.  We won!  However the BBs killed no one, got a tad of damage (very little), and were so far away from the fight you could not have seen them even with the Hubble Telescope. And this was co-op! 

Edited by dmckay

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Just now, dmckay said:

I have said this several times....too many players take that just stay alive advice overly seriously.  Way to seriously. Soooo they work on staying alive and they end up losing anyway cause they fail do do squat. Try and stay alive but if your guns are not in the fight you might as well be dead anyway. 

A lot of people miss this.

Taking damage is fine if and only if it's trading for something that enables your team to win. Things like:

  • Map control
  • Caps
  • Kill secures
  • Damage

mean you can take damage and it's fine. But what I see more often is players taking damage and doing none of that list and basically throwing their ships away.

"Tanking" means "taking damage which allows your team to do something." A battleship that pushes forward alone, "tanks" 2M potential, and dies pointlessly is just as much of a waste as a BB who sits in back sniping. That 2M only matters if it is fire that would have gone towards more strategic targets. 

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6 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

A lot of people miss this.

Taking damage is fine if and only if it's trading for something that enables your team to win. Things like:

  • Map control
  • Caps
  • Kill secures
  • Damage

mean you can take damage and it's fine. But what I see more often is players taking damage and doing none of that list and basically throwing their ships away.

"Tanking" means "taking damage which allows your team to do something." A battleship that pushes forward alone, "tanks" 2M potential, and dies pointlessly is just as much of a waste as a BB who sits in back sniping. That 2M only matters if it is fire that would have gone towards more strategic targets. 

Yes it's a fine balance.  I agree. 

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2 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

A lot of people miss this.

Taking damage is fine if and only if it's trading for something that enables your team to win. Things like:

  • Map control
  • Caps
  • Kill secures
  • Damage

mean you can take damage and it's fine. But what I see more often is players taking damage and doing none of that list and basically throwing their ships away.

"Tanking" means "taking damage which allows your team to do something." A battleship that pushes forward alone, "tanks" 2M potential, and dies pointlessly is just as much of a waste as a BB who sits in back sniping. That 2M only matters if it is fire that would have gone towards more strategic targets. 

Well I don't think anyone would argue that holding 4-5 enemies at bay, buying time for the team to cap and get on their asses, ALONG with dealing significantly above average damage in the ship compared to the server average AND bagging at least 1 kill would be considered useless. That's 4-5 enemy ships which could have engaged my team instead. Again, let's use a CL / CA for an example. I take up an aggressive defensive position behind an island, I melt a DD and kill it. I severely damage another DD so the few (if not only one) ships nearby can finish it off. I also kill a cruiser or two, and set some fires on battleships, draining their health. That leaves my team with an easier time once they actually come to their senses and push. Of course my death will be an inevitability, but those few minutes I spent holding the enemies at bay may very well have been an important condition for my team to win, because that's a couple of ships killed, at low HP, or otherwise out of position. Now, if only the BBs and DDs on my team were doing my job, because they can do it better. Of course, they often won't.

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1 minute ago, dmckay said:

Yes it's a fine balance.  I agree. 

I don't think it's a fine balance at all.

What is a fine balance, per se, is how easy it is to see that distinction. As I become better and better at the game the difference between when I (or people on my team) do "good tanking" vs "bad tanking" has become really obvious.

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Its' a game. Tanking can be fun and rewarding if your team has a decent lead. And when you end up with losers, wallhangers or lemmings, tank anyway because at least you will make someone on the other team unhappy....

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I've seen a lot of poor tactical decisions lately, but the one I've seen most is a team up on points and caps be the ones to force the issue, and make unnecessary pushes that snap defeat from the jaws of victory.

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3 minutes ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

Its' a game. Tanking can be fun and rewarding if your team has a decent lead. And when you end up with losers, wallhangers or lemmings, tank anyway because at least you will make someone on the other team unhappy....

If my suicidal mission is successful, meaning I can get kills, deal enough damage, and help the team achieve victory, then it won't feel like my sacrifice was completely in vain though my team's passiveness will leave me with a fist clenching, bitter feeling. However, if I manage to hold 1/3 to almost 1/2 the team at bay, get at least a kill, and deal a decent amount of damage and my team STILL can't follow up on my efforts, then....... I'm once again reminded of the average player's IQ.

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu

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1 minute ago, cometguy said:

I've seen a lot of poor tactical decisions lately, but the one I've seen most is a team up on points and caps be the ones to force the issue, and make unnecessary pushes that snap defeat from the jaws of victory.

Oh yes, I've also seen that too. Ships running off instead of staying together and consolidating their firepower, or ships choosing to fire when it's better to be undetected. Why? Summer holiday?

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu

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1 minute ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

Oh yes, I've also seen that too. Ships running off instead of staying together and consolidating their firepower, or ships choosing to fire when it's better to be undetected. Why? Summer holiday?

It's because people don't know the difference between "we need to push to win" and "we need to hold to win" and having experienced failures at the first, mistake the latter for the former.

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Just now, enderland07 said:

It's because people don't know the difference between "we need to push to win" and "we need to hold to win" and having experienced failures at the first, mistake the latter for the former.

True. I still have a lot to learn, and I have a tendency to get hyper aggressive to my detriment. I think for most people it may not even be an issue of playing well. They don't give a jack. If you teach them a thing or two, they'll either ignore you or abuse you. For example, today on that match (Shards) where I had to hold off the enemy's main force at A while my team was playing a carousel game for absolutely no purpose at B (they were hanging around B long after capping it), I criticized their decision to not come to me, stick together, and focus fire so we could win. I got called "retarded", was told to shut up, and a bunch of other things. It was nice. Players that are total fails don't deserve to have their feelings taken care of, because they're just so frustrating. Even if you're just harshly criticizing them without resorting to swearing and name calling, they'll think you insulted their ancestors for goodness sake.

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Just now, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

Oh yes, I've also seen that too. Ships running off instead of staying together and consolidating their firepower, or ships choosing to fire when it's better to be undetected.

I ran three mid-tier battles in DDs this morning, rare for me because I play mostly cruisers and BBs. Three wins, four kills, three with torps from ouside detection range...and not against other DDs either...Like in the song,

 

''You got to know when to hold'em,

know when to fold'em,

know when to walk away,

know when to run..''

 

I prefer to run in groups for tactical reasons, but sometimes going solo is a must...team play? Not there half the time so live with it....

 

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1 minute ago, GrandAdmiral_2016 said:

I ran three mid-tier battles in DDs this morning, rare for me because I play mostly cruisers and BBs. Three wins, four kills, three with torps from ouside detection range...and not against other DDs either...Like in the song,

 

''You got to know when to hold'em,

know when to fold'em,

know when to walk away,

know when to run..''

 

I prefer to run in groups for tactical reasons, but sometimes going solo is a must...team play? Not there half the time so live with it....

 

The effect of divisions on battles is overall positive, but not always. A division of two or three bad players is worse than one decent, good, very good, superb solo player.

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1 hour ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

What I've started to notice in not only Standard mode, but pretty much all game modes, is a refusal of my team to push in even when there's an overwhelming numerical superiority (and points) and superior firepower. Even when pushing in with a fair amount of HP left would end the battle a lot more quickly, I notice I am often the only one going in and advancing the battle. Sure I often die, but even when I die I feel there's nothing to lose, and try to kill as many / deal as much damage as I can. Due to this, I often end up high on the scoreboard if not first. Are most players THAT afraid of dying, or even having their paint scratched?

   I also notice that recently, a lot of my EXP might have come from spotting / potential damage. Even in a ship like the Atlanta, I have to hold off 4-5 enemies at a time and defend my island for as long as possible while my team takes AGES capping, going around a flank, or just sits back. Even with this extremely dangerous move to buy them time so they can get their asses into the fight and win, I can STILL get 1st or 2nd place on the team. An Atlanta shouldn't have to be keeping 4-5 ships at bay. That's the job of the BBs and DDs.

Why trade a high chance of winning by camping for a reasonable chance of losing by pushing the enemy when you don’t need to?

seems illogical to me. 

How many people come on these forums complaining about teams throwing a certain win because some muppet decided to yolo? That’s what your push would have looked like to other players. 

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3 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Why trade a high chance of winning by camping for a reasonable chance of losing by pushing the enemy when you don’t need to?

seems illogical to me. 

How many people come on these forums complaining about teams throwing a certain win because some muppet decided to yolo? That’s what your push would have looked like to other players. 

A lot of times the players who sit back get picked off anyway? It's a matter of time, really. There certainly are times when it's better to not rush in, but more often than not aggressive killing and focus firing leads to wins. And no, I didn't YOLO in that battle. I followed the majority of my team to B, note, the majority. 8-9 ships. When the 4-5 enemy ships were detected and close, they turned tail and ran to C. It was only 5 minutes, 2 kills, 85k damage, almost half the enemy team scattered, and 1 death later that they finally turned back.

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu

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3 minutes ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

A lot of times the players who sit back get picked off anyway? It's a matter of time, really. There certainly are times when it's better to not rush in, but more often than not aggressive killing and focus firing leads to wins. And no, I didn't YOLO in that battle. I followed the majority of my team to B, note, the majority. 8-9 ships. When the 4-5 enemy ships were detected and close, they turned tail and ran to C. It was only 5 minutes, 2 kills, 85k damage, almost half the enemy team scattered, and 1 death later that they finally turned back.

I mean, you're basically complaining why people don't push when they:

 

1 hour ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

, is a refusal of my team to push in even when there's an overwhelming numerical superiority (and points) and superior firepower. Even when pushing in with a fair amount of HP left would end the battle a lot more quickly, I notice I am often the only one going in and advancing the battle.

You are more or less saying, "I want to push even when pushing does not provide any value and our team would clearly win if we did not push." That's kind of like taking a 90% guaranteed win and turning it into an 50% win. The number of times I've seen my team throwaway a guaranteed win (or take one from an opponent) is amazing.

It's kind of WG's fault though for making a strategic game into a wannabe FPS.

 

 

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The problem is that many are afraid to take damage and camp. You will here it blamed on too many DD and players worried about torpedoes, players worried about too many CA and HE spam and players worried about BB one shots. Even when WG adds thing like radar people are still afraid to scratch the paint. It does not even have to be the whole team who start it but a few critical ships that camp which in turn makes the rest afraid to push. I am not sure there is a way to fix this but do the best you can in cases like this. 

Edited by Shadow_NA

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3 minutes ago, Shadow_NA said:

The problem is that many are afraid to take damage and camp. You will here it blamed on too many DD and players worried about torpedoes, players worried about too many CA and HE spam and players worried about BB one shots. Even when WG adds thing like radar people are still afraid to scratch the paint. It does not even have to be the whole team who starts it but a few critical ships that camp which in turn makes the rest afraid to push. I am not sure there is a way to fix this but do the best you can in cases like this. 

And that's what I try to do. I don't know how better players (including you) will handle the same situation, but I just try to get as many kills and deal as much damage as I can before going down, maybe take a cap or two.

 

Another example of extremely passive play was on Trident 2 days ago. In that match I broke my damage and kill record in the Atlanta, 135k and 6 kills to be exact. The team was sitting back and the Maass and I got pretty much all the kills. It was thanks to the effort of the Maass (purple player) that capped the enemy base in time, and the remaining 3-4 enemy ships that I held off long enough at our base, that my team managed to win.

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu

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4 minutes ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

And that's what I try to do. I don't know how better players (including you) will handle the same situation, but I just try to get as many kills and deal as much damage as I can before going down, maybe take a cap or two.

 

Another example of extremely passive play was on Trident 2 days ago. In that match I broke my damage and kill record in the Atlanta, 135k and 6 kills to be exact. The team was sitting back and the Maass and I got pretty much all the kills. It was thanks to the effort of the Maass (purple player) that capped the enemy base in time, and the remaining 3-4 enemy ships that I held off long enough at our base, that my team managed to win.

And that is why we have the term carrying a team. Good job :Smile_great:

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1 minute ago, Shadow_NA said:

And that is why we have the term carrying a team. Good job :Smile_great:

^^ Thanks. :)) So far I'm only at a 1415 PR (green, 'Good') and 52% solo win rate, but I used to be a 48%-er. I don't know if my 4000 battles is a lot, but I feel like I've been playing an eternity just to reach this decent level of gameplay. 

I'll tip my hat to the Maass (who, unfortunately, I don't think is a forum goer and I forgot his name). We were really down on points, but he capped the enemy base and secured the win when there was less than a minute left in the match.

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I’m just not very smart, sorry  to ruin the game for you. I make a lot of bad decisions in critical moments. 

I’m always trying to get better, but I guess it takes me a ling time.

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1 minute ago, USSCurtis said:

I’m just not very smart, sorry  to ruin the game for you. I make a lot of bad decisions in critical moments. 

I’m always trying to get better, but I guess it takes me a ling time.

It's also taken me a long time, and I am still far from the best. Hell, even if I don't end up becoming a unicum (and that's not necessarily my goal, I won't force it), I know I still have a lot more potential. Currently I'm light green, around 60-65 above what Warships Numbers considers "Good", which, reading between the lines, is basically their way of saying "slightly above average." As long as you keep learning and want to do better, you're in the right direction. Keep going and you'll be fine. :))

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