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NewbieDash

[Balancing] Kronstadt, and the Dangerous Trend for High Tier Premiums

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Let's start with a fun little example down here: 
https://replayswows.com/replay/24818#stats

"Starting from 6:50 till 6:00, 
watch this perfect example of how evenly matched our good old Dm. Donskoi is versus the new addition of same tier free xp premium, the Kronstadt. "

Screenshot 1-3: 

Kronstadt greeted with warm citadel hits; 

Kronstadt sips torp shot; 

Kronstadts rams into the arms of our Donskoi without even using a ramming signal flag!


---

Back to serious suggestions, 
here are our free xp premiums: 

--Stage 1: stronger than same tier silver ships: 

Missouri - slightly better than a Tier 9 ship Iowa, mainly in the form of radar, plus minor frontal bulkhead / AA

Nelson - arguably the strongest T7 BB with a combination of super heal, turret setup & firepower, HE; but also with massive citadel weakness and slow speed

So far they seem pretty okay - they are still perfectly beatable, Iowa doesn't fall behind by much beyond catching people with radar, and Nelson deletion is not rare for same to higher tiers. 

 

---Stage 2: slightly tuned-down +1 tier silver ship: 

Musashi - Yamato with just slightly worse accuracy, same reload, almost identical armor and HP. Musashi got almost no AA, though a Yamato without heavy AA spec won't feel the difference either. 

Now I happen to be grinding the IJN silver T9, the Izumo, and well... when Musashi got a lot more HP, a lot more armor against HE spamming, and on top of that, really scary guns for anyone that makes 1v1 dual pretty much suicidal...

 

okay sure, WG needs to make profit, and I'll happily pay to skip to T10 Yamato - which is indeed superior after all.

So the question comes back - why free xp the Musashi when you can just free xp into Yamato at even lower cost?

 

T9 still faces T10 all day long, and for those rare cases against T7, yeah.. pretty disgusting, but mainly so for T8+. 460mm is not a necessity for overmatching 25mm bow/stern on T7 bbs. 

Clearly, WG realized this problem, so here's the fix: 

--Stage 3: T9 (and potentially T10) premiums, that are arguably the best in the entire game, regardless of tier

Now Kronstadt is just a fantastic start - we got guns that can now overmatch RN cruisers, citadel punish bbs better than the Moskva, punish cruisers even harder across the map, and, in the meanwhile, has better HP and a much lower citadel and pretty good concealment compared to Moskva.

 

And this is not even like the Black or Flint that are very exclusively rewarded to loyal and experience players, these are just plain buyable not far from day 1 if one so wishes. 750k free xp isn't a long grind with budget apart. In fact, our Black veterans would likely suffer the power creep as well, since their carrying potential in a Black could be very well countered by simply a decent Kronstadt player. And let us not go into the frustration when these veterans happen to pick a silver or inferior premium and got widely overwhelmed not by the skill gap but simple what they choose to bring... 

 

Sure, the ship would sell really well and it probably does, but is there no hidden cost to this? For example, once people realize that these ships instead of the silver T10s are the real king, would they keep grinding the silver lines over and over again, boosting the popularity of the game and community, or would they throw all the silver lines, old and new, out of the window, unless they are comparably OP as the free xp premiums? What about the credits that WG could sell or use as incentive for players to keep grinding and buying moneymaking premiums? What about the captain re-training and re-specing? What about the frenzy upon every new line? What about future premiums, by cash or free xp, shall we make them even more OP like increasing the dosage of vodka, or kinda balanced - or underpowered in the eyes of many, risking the sale numbers? 

 

So, how about some braking pedals on the vodka-infused OP premiums and the poor peasants that feel much less satisfied or even rage quit, and some efforts into re-balancing the latest premiums, guaranteed by the choice to either return the ship and get the free xp back, or keep the ship and take some credits for compensation. Guess where those resources would flow into? Silver line grinding, and the habit to focus on every new line that comes out. And at least for me, that's the main reason why I purchase all the premium time, the grinding camos, the signals, the captains, as well as staying loyal and active all the way. Premiums are cheap, players buy them, and they dump them, unless they once again need to grind for credits to feed the new silver lines. 

 

Silver lines might actually mean a lot more for the healthy status of the gaming community, as well as for we the players, our willingness to stay engaged and contribute time and purchases for the game. Plz don't once again take the golden standards away from silver ships, and infest the game with OP ships all the way till Tier X, for some very short term profits.  

Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 00.03.38.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 00.03.43.png

Screen Shot 2018-06-16 at 00.03.49.png

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9 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

So get one, every one can.

But what's the point of grinding a premium if it's not the best moneymaker? I got my Missouri and care-free weeb-infused Miku & Belfast, and I won't even touch those if I so quit grinding the silver ships, which I might very well do for the Soviet CA line once I get the Kronstadt. 

As I said, premiums are cheap. No need for premium time or signal or camo or captain retraining, or grinding of any form. People play them for a laugh and they are done with it. 

The game economy is literally built delicately around the silver ships by the smart WG designers, which seem to have had a bit too much vodka to recall the masterpiece themselves, thus trying to migrate the core incentive from silver grinding to "hey I just spent 100$ on this awesome new premium I won't rest until I'm 1,000 battles on it" (which usually ends with playing it several times and ten years later...)

Edited by NewbieDash

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14 minutes ago, Sovereigndawg said:

So get one, every one can.

And btw I'm sitting on top of almost 3M free XP and another 30k doubloons... buying free xp premiums are pretty EZ as there's no credits to worry about, but pretty boring as well. OP ≠ Fun'n Engaging

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Kronshtadt is balanced fine, theres plenty of situations, such an angling, where her guns just underperform compared to every other T9 cruiser, like firing HE.
 

Kronshtadt wins when people shows broadside, and is almost entirely negligible damagewise when people angle. Her guns reload too slowly and are too inaccurate to land her HE shells to properly tax a DCP.

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Kronshtadt is not as good you think she is. As Akeno017 wrote down she mainly punishes broadside ships, whether those are cruisers or battleships doesn't matter. Even then you still need some RNG luck. Burn her down at range and don't let a Kronshtadt catch you broadside.

I think the most confusing part is that it is being classed as a cruiser. A cruiser can be a ship that can citadel BBs at range or close range, can possibly stealth torp, can reload the guns between 3 - 19 seconds, has the dispersion of a brickwall or the dispersion that makes some battleships laugh. I know that you know this, OP, but this is something more in general. I think Akeno's answer was already sufficient.

I think it is time to separate light cruisers and heavy cruisers by a different icon. I think it will be easier for the player base and newcomers.

 

Edited by LemonadeWarrior
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5 hours ago, NewbieDash said:

So the question comes back - why free xp the Musashi when you can just free xp into Yamato at even lower cost?

 

T9 still faces T10 all day long, and for those rare cases against T7, yeah.. pretty disgusting, but mainly so for T8+. 460mm is not a necessity for overmatching 25mm bow/stern on T7 bbs. 

Clearly, WG realized this problem, so here's the fix: 

I have played both in CoOp before deciding which one to play in Randoms, and I actually sticked to the Musashi mostly due to the rudder shift. It was mostly a choice between rudder shift or main gun accuracy, but since Musashi is already very accurate I didn‘t see a reason to dump her.

The AA is not that great on either of them. If a CV wants me dead they‘ll kill me either way. And the MM that puts me against T7 every fifth match or so just means that in a few games I‘ll club like there‘s no tomorrow.

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6 hours ago, NewbieDash said:

And btw I'm sitting on top of almost 3M free XP and another 30k doubloons... buying free xp premiums are pretty EZ as there's no credits to worry about, but pretty boring as well. OP ≠ Fun'n Engaging

So then what are you complaining about?

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5 hours ago, Akeno017 said:

Kronshtadt is balanced fine, theres plenty of situations, such an angling, where her guns just underperform compared to every other T9 cruiser, like firing HE.
 

Kronshtadt wins when people shows broadside, and is almost entirely negligible damagewise when people angle. Her guns reload too slowly and are too inaccurate to land her HE shells to properly tax a DCP.

Iowa is balanced fine, theres plenty of situations, such an angling, where her guns just underperform compared to every other T9 cruiser, like firing HE. 
 

Iowa wins when people shows broadside, and is almost entirely negligible damagewise when people angle. Her guns reload too slowly and are too inaccurate to land her HE shells to properly tax a DCP.

 

Compared to Iowa, especially the old one with higher citadel, Kronstadt represents the new generation of player-friendly T9 cruiser that, despite smaller guns, still citadel T10 cruisers across the map and even the likes of Iowa from some 15km, and capable of doing that more often and with even better shell speed and dispersion. It also has very competitive concealment and HP pool, and, despite the worse Armor, can still bow tank relatively well at long ranges thanks to the smaller size and incredible HP pool, which still remains larger after a 20k hit compared to a full-hp Roon. It also has a lower citadel and quite good handling compared to Iowa, has radar just like Missouri and the AA, and is quite capable of taking the Iowa with her in a successful ram, unlike the other cruisers which struggle to ram down even Kron itself. 

 

And oh yeah it takes up a cruiser slot, while the good old Iowa does not! Why play the BB when you can citadel them from a CA? 

 

PS about angling... 30 deg would seem okay-ish against a bow-tanking BB.. and Kronstadt punishes back with 8-9k AP volley every reload because well still better accuracy and auto bounce angle! Kronstadt downright s***s on so many things beyond broadsiding and I would hardly desire to go down the list... why can’t just everybody angle in <~22.5deg to this thing across the map, how hard could it be right? Except for the dds, which better stay away before this radar ship goes down - which is like never

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re: why not fxp to Yamato?

an: because I NEVER wanted one, and always said I’d rather have Musashi anyway. (1942 config sealed the deal.)

(Basically hate popular ships, never seem to do well in them, and stopped at Fuso because I despise high tier games anyway.)

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3 hours ago, SireneRacker said:

I have played both in CoOp before deciding which one to play in Randoms, and I actually sticked to the Musashi mostly due to the rudder shift. It was mostly a choice between rudder shift or main gun accuracy, but since Musashi is already very accurate I didn‘t see a reason to dump her.

The AA is not that great on either of them. If a CV wants me dead they‘ll kill me either way. And the MM that puts me against T7 every fifth match or so just means that in a few games I‘ll club like there‘s no tomorrow.

That is quite true, Musashi likely has somewhat better matchmaking, slightly better armor on the superstructure and better planes. In terms of gun performance, the T10 legendary upgrades would be something to watch for.. Might make Yamato dispersion great again

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2 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

re: why not fxp to Yamato?

an: because I NEVER wanted one, and always said I’d rather have Musashi anyway. (1942 config sealed the deal.)

(Basically hate popular ships, never seem to do well in them, and stopped at Fuso because I despise high tier games anyway.)

Dang that's a pretty inspiring idea.. I would be done with all the grinding if I stop at T6, and most of it by T8, no more time or money spent! 

Lower tiers are the best tiers! 

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6 minutes ago, NewbieDash said:

Iowa is balanced fine, theres plenty of situations, such an angling, where her guns just underperform compared to every other T9 cruiser, like firing HE. 

Aaaahahahahahahahaha, you know your saying this to someone who wants absolutely nothing but the return of old Iowa cit, having played both that and old Montana a great amount during that time. Maybe then trash BB players who perma broadside will get oneshotted like they deserve the tatters.

The first issue you make, is comparing a large cruiser to a 406mm armed battleship. Iowa's guns will crush ships compared to Kronshtadt being very much capable of smacking bow on or angling cruisers through their nose. While Kronshtadt will often shatter against high tier battleship belt armor and is incapable of overmatch on anything other than RN cruisers, meanwhile Kronshtadt can be citadeled more reliably then old Iowa could be, angling does very little for Kronshtadt vs. battleship calibre shells, which will not only overmatch her deck and upper sides, and in the case of the Yamatos and REpublique, her citadel roof as well. Meaning Kronshtadt takes large amounts of damage from battleships easily. Other cruisers deal with battleships far better then Kronkron does, capable of just running and disengaging, something kronshtadt cant do due to its poor sailing characteristics.

Most other cruisers also have simply more guns, faster reloads. Translating into far more DPM then kronshtadt, not to mention Kronshtadt suffers from battleship dispersion, meaning its harder for her to hit what HE she has. Making her inferior to cruisers for dealing with battleships and destroyers in general. Kronshtadt shines when she can perform her historical role as a cruiser killer, and the relationship here can be seen as one similar to current heavy cruisers vs. light cruisers, like Furataka vs. Omaha. Even then, playing against kronshtadt only becomes difficult if you decide it to be, simplying angling and disengaging will force kronshtadt into either firing HE or firing AP for little damage, neither she wants to do.

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1 hour ago, RipNuN2 said:

Kron isn't OP.

 

Yeah for sure. (Screenshot_showing_perfect_balanz.jpg)

Kron has: 

5.2% better WR (58.02%!),

.14 better frags,

25% more avg. damager,

20% more avg. xp (1,800+ !)

and

.7 better KD radio (2.83:1 !)

compared to the second best.

Not to mention the absurd 80%+ WR for the top 5% players - I bet flamu can't carry that hard doing solo, unless sailing the good old Stalingrad? 

 

Surely this is all because only the most experienced players have access to this ship, it's not something you can just P2W right

 

Wait until the Stalin comes out in the shape Flamu originally reviewed, and best wishes to you for having the 3 stalin flags ready to go, so that you can get yours once again just like the Kronstadt, and stay on the winner's side again. 

 

Cheers! 

image.thumb.png.7962870a6f3bde376c4fa7615a97e957.png

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37 minutes ago, NewbieDash said:

Iowa is balanced fine, theres plenty of situations, such an angling, where her guns just underperform compared to every other T9 cruiser, like firing HE. 
 

Iowa wins when people shows broadside, and is almost entirely negligible damagewise when people angle. Her guns reload too slowly and are too inaccurate to land her HE shells to properly tax a DCP.

 

Compared to Iowa, especially the old one with higher citadel, Kronstadt represents the new generation of player-friendly T9 cruiser that, despite smaller guns, still citadel T10 cruisers across the map and even the likes of Iowa from some 15km, and capable of doing that more often and with even better shell speed and dispersion. It also has very competitive concealment and HP pool, and, despite the worse Armor, can still bow tank relatively well at long ranges thanks to the smaller size and incredible HP pool, which still remains larger after a 20k hit compared to a full-hp Roon. It also has a lower citadel and quite good handling compared to Iowa, has radar just like Missouri and the AA, and is quite capable of taking the Iowa with her in a successful ram, unlike the other cruisers which struggle to ram down even Kron itself. 

 

And oh yeah it takes up a cruiser slot, while the good old Iowa does not! Why play the BB when you can citadel them from a CA? 

 

PS about angling... 30 deg would seem okay-ish against a bow-tanking BB.. and Kronstadt punishes back with 8-9k AP volley every reload because well still better accuracy and auto bounce angle! Kronstadt downright s***s on so many things beyond broadsiding and I would hardly desire to go down the list... why can’t just everybody angle in <~22.5deg to this thing across the map, how hard could it be right? Except for the dds, which better stay away before this radar ship goes down - which is like never

Listen here, iowa has 406mm guns. You know what that means? Lol pen anything with less than 30mm plating with best in class dispersion and hull speed. 

Kronshtad cant even overmatch 25mm plating on t8 cruisers and has bb accuracy when she is supposed to have cruiser accuracy  

Kronshtad should be buffed with cruiser accuracy to compensate.

Edited by Crokodone

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4 minutes ago, NewbieDash said:

 

 

All new ships have inflated stats right after release even free xp ships. You have to wait at least 2-3 months to see the stats come to its true normal. Others in the thread have already pointed out the weaknesses of the kron that balance her out.

Edited by RipNuN2

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10 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

Aaaahahahahahahahaha, you know your saying this to someone who wants absolutely nothing but the return of old Iowa cit, having played both that and old Montana a great amount during that time. Maybe then trash BB players who perma broadside will get oneshotted like they deserve the tatters.

The first issue you make, is comparing a large cruiser to a 406mm armed battleship. Iowa's guns will crush ships compared to Kronshtadt being very much capable of smacking bow on or angling cruisers through their nose. While Kronshtadt will often shatter against high tier battleship belt armor and is incapable of overmatch on anything other than RN cruisers, meanwhile Kronshtadt can be citadeled more reliably then old Iowa could be, angling does very little for Kronshtadt vs. battleship calibre shells, which will not only overmatch her deck and upper sides, and in the case of the Yamatos and REpublique, her citadel roof as well. Meaning Kronshtadt takes large amounts of damage from battleships easily. Other cruisers deal with battleships far better then Kronkron does, capable of just running and disengaging, something kronshtadt cant do due to its poor sailing characteristics.

Most other cruisers also have simply more guns, faster reloads. Translating into far more DPM then kronshtadt, not to mention Kronshtadt suffers from battleship dispersion, meaning its harder for her to hit what HE she has. Making her inferior to cruisers for dealing with battleships and destroyers in general. Kronshtadt shines when she can perform her historical role as a cruiser killer, and the relationship here can be seen as one similar to current heavy cruisers vs. light cruisers, like Furataka vs. Omaha. Even then, playing against kronshtadt only becomes difficult if you decide it to be, simplying angling and disengaging will force kronshtadt into either firing HE or firing AP for little damage, neither she wants to do.

Well if Kronstadt would struggle against BBs based on your analysis, which I pretty much agree for a 1v1 scenario,

try to explain why Kronstadt still has over 25% avg. damage over the FR CA that excels at burning down BBs, and over 50% more dmg compared to the pre-Zao Ibuki with plenty of fire setting capacity at disposal with cruiser dispersion and reload. 

Maybe it's because that our cruisers suddenly have BB level of HP and can thus be farmed much easier, like, hmmm, what is that ship? 

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4 minutes ago, NewbieDash said:

Yeah for sure. (Screenshot_showing_perfect_balanz.jpg)

Kron has: 

5.2% better WR (58.02%!),

.14 better frags,

25% more avg. damager,

20% more avg. xp (1,800+ !)

and

.7 better KD radio (2.83:1 !)

compared to the second best.

Not to mention the absurd 80%+ WR for the top 5% players - I bet flamu can't carry that hard doing solo, unless sailing the good old Stalingrad? 

 

Surely this is all because only the most experienced players have access to this ship, it's not something you can just P2W right

 

Wait until the Stalin comes out in the shape Flamu originally reviewed, and best wishes to you for having the 3 stalin flags ready to go, so that you can get yours once again just like the Kronstadt, and stay on the winner's side again. 

 

Cheers! 

image.thumb.png.7962870a6f3bde376c4fa7615a97e957.png

New ships always have higher ww due to more seasoned players playing them more often. I know i would be playing Kronshtad to death had i 230k more free xp. 

Why? Because Kronshtad is what heavy cruisers are supposed to be in post war naval society.

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1 minute ago, RipNuN2 said:

 

All new ships have inflated stats right after release even free xp ships. You have to wait at least 2-3 months to see the stats come to its true normal. Others in the thread have already pointed out the weaknesses of the kron that balance her out.

Yeah... the thing is, Musashi is around for months already and I don't need to compared it to Izumo. RN BBs are around for a while, and are still very frustrating to fight against as a BB. And WG does seem to keep a good promise of not nerfing the premiums, thus shafting the silver line players I guess. 

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1 minute ago, NewbieDash said:

try to explain why Kronstadt still has over 25% avg. damage

Kronshtadt at this point is mostly owned by people who pre-ground the fxp for her, like me.

Most of those people generally have a good idea of how to play the game, or are just unicums in general.

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1 minute ago, Crokodone said:

New ships always have higher ww due to more seasoned players playing them more often. I know i would be playing Kronshtad to death had i 230k more free xp. 

Why? Because Kronshtad is what heavy cruisers are supposed to be in post war naval society.

Well props for that! Very classic cruiser gameplay isn't it. Can't wait for the Alaska class as a much superior radar boat.

 

Highlight: Stalingradski Classic Cruiser Gameplay [WiP]

 

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13 minutes ago, NewbieDash said:

Well props for that! Very classic cruiser gameplay isn't it. Can't wait for the Alaska class as a much superior radar boat.

 

Highlight: Stalingradski Classic Cruiser Gameplay [WiP]

 

Stalingrad isn't Kronshtad and though both have 305mm guns, they still are cruisers because they have none of the overmatch privileges of contemporary BBs. Therefore, they play like cruisers. 

Notser did a vid where he discusses that WG is trying to give BB players an incentive to switch to HE. Giving higher tier cruisers more plating is more than a coincidence: force bbs to use HE.

And yeah, its spectacular news for the Alaskas; free xp or tech tree. Kronshtad's aa would make t5 ships laugh.

Edited by Crokodone

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4 minutes ago, Akeno017 said:

Kronshtadt at this point is mostly owned by people who pre-ground the fxp for her, like me.

Most of those people generally have a good idea of how to play the game, or are just unicums in general.

Again I totally agree on that.

 

Now, back to the stats,

does that imply that with the skill gap in between, our King Potatoes now farm cruiser broadsides even far better than potatoes farming DoT on BBs,

 

or, shall we say,

that the ship is a notch too punishing for BBs as well in a actual battle scenario, since everyday potatoes can't angle and avoid massive AP damage, and even unicum players themselves sometimes struggle to lead a push against this thing since it still takes forever to bring down at somewhat reasonable range, and very strict to angle against. In many cases I'd rather prefer if it is a Moskva, at least Moskva has less HP against bow citadels, smaller guns, garbage concealment, and a much more vulnerable broadside. 

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3 minutes ago, Crokodone said:

Stalingrad isn't Kronshtad and though both have 305mm guns, they still are cruisers because they have none of the overmatch privileges of contemporary BBs. Therefore, they play like cruisers. 

Notser did a vid where he discusses that WG is trying to give BB players an incentive to switch to HE. Giving higher tier cruisers more plating is more than a coincidence: force bbs to use HE.

Uhh BB HE? That's totally the wrong call, we all see that happened when RN HE was introduced. It disregards range, disregards angling, disregards most armor, disregards the difference between citadel overpen bouncing and such... and here's one of my favorite Flamu ramping vid. You're welcome. 

 

Conqueror - Nerf This Stupid F@#king Ship Already!

 

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