Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Lensar

Nerf DD Concealment when moving at full speed

88 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,375
[GRIT]
Members
3,254 posts
9,799 battles

Wargaming considers it a problem that DDs are able to escape from BB/CAs because they are faster and have lower detection. They likely consider this an issue because a skilled DD player can have their way with an inexperienced BB/CA player.

WG has painted themselves into a corner now with radar, as they obviously can't get rid of it without a bunch of folks having a conniption. But there were plenty of other ways to address this issue (assuming you think it IS an issue, which I do not, but that's neither here nor there).

The simplest way would be to alter DD concealment based on speed:

  • 75% speed = Full concealment.
  • Full speed = Concealment + 50%. (You're going full throttle creating lots of mist and wake, with your engine belching smoke like a madman with a cigar addiction)
  • Speed boost = Concealment +100% (Hey, you want to move fast pretty much everyone is going to see you)

It would allow CAs to chase DDs. While the DD can go faster than a CA, they do so at the expense of their concealment. A DD that remained concealed and moved at 75% would have to use position to avoid being detected and certainly wouldn't be able to do the "hit and run" tactics people complain about with DDs (which I've never really seen).

Now, this is an example of a nerf or balance adjustment that makes the game more insteresting for everyone. For both the DDs and the CA/BBs. It would create lots of emergent and fun tactics, which should be the goal of any designer working on competitive online games. Compare this to radar which is a purely hard-counter that adds no additional options or strategies to the game, and does not add to the fun of both the user and the victim.

If you're still wondering about the reasoning behing WGs decision that it's not okay for DDs to be faster/stealthier than CA/BBs you can read this:

Spoiler

Let me walk you through WG's logic:

Classes

  • BBs are slow armored ships with lots of HP and high detection.
  • CAs are faster less-armored ships that are more maneuverable with medium detection.
  • DDs are the fastest most-maneuverable with the lowest detection.

All ships have ranged attacks. (there are no "melee" ships. Even secondaries are ranged)

There is no "crowd control" in the game. In other words, you can't grapple, tackle, stun, snare, root, etc to restrict movement. (There also aren't any debuffs)

The problem: How do you stop DDs just running away from CAs and BBs? You can't.

Now, I bet the original plan was that the fastest class in the game (DDs) would be countered by the 4th class in the game, Carriers. This makes sense since CV planes can move much faster than DDs and can both attack and spot. (but CVs are a rare and endangered species)

If this was an MMO/MOBA, cruisers would have some kind of root or snare to slow down DDs, but that wouldn't make much sense in WoWs setting. (However, it does make sense in Total War: Arena, another WG game)

So you're stuck with the problem of having a ship class that can always choose when and where to engage in combat. Meaning, if that ship just wants to run away, BBs and CAs are unable to hunt it down and kill it. 

The real question: Why do BBs and CAs need to be able to hunt down and kill DDs?

DD players say there is no reason because DDs are countered by other DDs, and generally have to be really skilled/lucky to live through the initial battle chaos to even be alive to choose when to engage, and aren't over-the-top effective when they ARE able to do it. Risk > Reward.

BB/CA players will say that a DD could sit outside of detection range and toss torps all day long and there is nothing they can do except dodge torps. (easy if you're paying attention, hard if you've got lots of other threats happening)

Wargaming agrees with the BB/CA players that it's a problem that DDs, (through low detection and high speed) can choose when and where to engage if there are no other DDs (or CVs) around to help hunt them down.

If you follow that logic, than one of the only solutions to a problem where the fastest and least detectable class needs to be countered, and you can't resort to any form movement restriction, is to introduce: Alpha Strike

Alpha strike is a huge amount of upfront damage that can cripple or kill a target. Without an alpha strike, a DD will just speed back out of detection range and escape, allowing them to go back to choosing when and where to engage. Even escaping with 1 HP left is enough for a DD to regain complete battle initiative.

WG's Solution: Radar is intended to be an alpha strike vs DDs.

It makes perfect sense. It's binary. It affects all enemy ships equally, regardless of speed or detectability. It goes through islands, not by accident, but intentionally. It's why no amount of debate regarding DD performance will convince WG to change their mind about radar to make it more balanced. It's not intended to be balanced. It's intended to alpha strike DDs, which is the only way to prevent them from choosing when and where to engage. It's intended to be an insta-kill in most, if not all, situations.

So, yes. They could make it less effective, in any number of ways, for it to be balanced. But that's not the goal. Any balance would negate the whole reason it was put in. It needs to alpha strike to stop DDs from choosing when and where to attack, because many people believe it's a fundamental design flaw if CA/BBs cannot hunt down and kill DDs. 

 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
256 posts
4,590 battles

Terrible idea.   Whomever has suggested this has never played DD's.

If i read this correctly,  it's a response to radar?   That's Bass Ackwards.

  • Cool 1
  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,313
Alpha Tester
3,710 posts
1,392 battles

I will agree only if going in reverse buffs concealment. For all classes.

We would enter the glorious new age of the reverse meta! Optimal play would see everyone sailing backwards unless they needed to wasd out of there. I already do this in shimakaze, and feel this would be the buff IJN DDs need!

  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,603
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
6,410 posts
11,050 battles

Speed boost used to incur a stealth penalty. It was removed ages ago because it was a bad idea. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,603
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
6,410 posts
11,050 battles

Also. If stealth is negatively impacted by going full speed then shouldn’t main gun accuracy of cruisers and BBs be negatively impacted by moving at high speed and maneuvering? All that pitching and yawing can’t be good for keeping the main guns on target. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
6,264 battles

I always thought that Destroyers should get concealment buffs and nerfs depending on if there is islands behind them. As a Navy vet it can be hard to spot a ship against the backdrop of land but on the open ocean they just stand out. I know this is not a simulator but incorporating some real life things might be cool.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
123
[-RNG-]
[-RNG-]
Members
319 posts
6,213 battles

"While the DD can go faster than a CA, they do so at the expense of their concealment."

-Someone forgot to tell Henry IV and it's 43.9 knott speed with flag and boost.  

I think DD's have enough problems right now without this.

Edited by digitaljustice
  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
291
[NNC]
Members
2,088 posts
10,388 battles

In before the close

 

 

lol a thumbs down really? Lol

Edited by JessieTheKitty
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
6,264 battles
1 minute ago, HazardDrake said:

Also. If stealth is negatively impacted by going full speed then shouldn’t main gun accuracy of cruisers and BBs be negatively impacted by moving at high speed and maneuvering? All that pitching and yawing can’t be good for keeping the main guns on target. 

Us battleships that used the MK-8 Rangekeeper analog ballistic fire control computer were not effected by those things because the computer automatically corrected for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
722
[RST]
Members
1,906 posts
12,008 battles

I'll agree to that if WG does the same thing for radar. Ships with radar can only use it when sitting still or moving very slow. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,603
[WOLF2]
Beta Testers
6,410 posts
11,050 battles
1 minute ago, Belthorian said:

Us battleships that used the MK-8 Rangekeeper analog ballistic fire control computer were not effected by those things because the computer automatically corrected for them.

They still weren’t capable of hitting a fleeing IJN destroyer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
223
[PSV]
Members
332 posts
8,452 battles

Can we nerf BB accuracy when moving at max speed?

 

xD

  • Funny 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8
[-HLQ-]
Members
55 posts
3,144 battles

"...a skilled DD player can have their way with an inexperienced BB/CA player."

Um, that's kind of the point, ain't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8,762
[NMKJT]
Beta Testers
23,344 posts
3,895 battles
5 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

They still weren’t capable of hitting a fleeing IJN destroyer. 

You got a point, the only ship that computer actually landed hits on had already lost its engine to air attacks and was basically stationary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
161
[AWP]
Members
785 posts
3,318 battles
21 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Wargaming considers it a problem that DDs are able to escape from BB/CAs because they are faster and have lower detection. They likely consider this an issue because a skilled DD player can have their way with an inexperienced BB/CA player.

WG has painted themselves into a corner now with radar, as they obviously can't get rid of it without a bunch of folks having a conniption. But there were plenty of other ways to address this issue (assuming you think it IS an issue, which I do not, but that's neither here nor there).

The simplest way would be to alter DD concealment based on speed:

  • 75% speed = Full concealment.
  • Full speed = Concealment + 50%. (You're going full throttle creating lots of mist and wake, with your engine belching smoke like a madman with a cigar addiction)
  • Speed boost = Concealment +100% (Hey, you want to move fast pretty much everyone is going to see you)

It would allow CAs to chase DDs. While the DD can go faster than a CA, they do so at the expense of their concealment. A DD that remained concealed and moved at 75% would have to use position to avoid being detected and certainly wouldn't be able to do the "hit and run" tactics people complain about with DDs (which I've never really seen).

Now, this is an example of a nerf or balance adjustment that makes the game more insteresting for everyone. For both the DDs and the CA/BBs. It would create lots of emergent and fun tactics, which should be the goal of any designer working on competitive online games. Compare this to radar which is a purely hard-counter that adds no additional options or strategies to the game, and does not add to the fun of both the user and the victim.

If you're still wondering about the reasoning behing WGs decision that it's not okay for DDs to be faster/stealthier than CA/BBs you can read this:

  Reveal hidden contents

Let me walk you through WG's logic:

Classes

  • BBs are slow armored ships with lots of HP and high detection.
  • CAs are faster less-armored ships that are more maneuverable with medium detection.
  • DDs are the fastest most-maneuverable with the lowest detection.

All ships have ranged attacks. (there are no "melee" ships. Even secondaries are ranged)

There is no "crowd control" in the game. In other words, you can't grapple, tackle, stun, snare, root, etc to restrict movement. (There also aren't any debuffs)

The problem: How do you stop DDs just running away from CAs and BBs? You can't.

Now, I bet the original plan was that the fastest class in the game (DDs) would be countered by the 4th class in the game, Carriers. This makes sense since CV planes can move much faster than DDs and can both attack and spot. (but CVs are a rare and endangered species)

If this was an MMO/MOBA, cruisers would have some kind of root or snare to slow down DDs, but that wouldn't make much sense in WoWs setting. (However, it does make sense in Total War: Arena, another WG game)

So you're stuck with the problem of having a ship class that can always choose when and where to engage in combat. Meaning, if that ship just wants to run away, BBs and CAs are unable to hunt it down and kill it. 

The real question: Why do BBs and CAs need to be able to hunt down and kill DDs?

DD players say there is no reason because DDs are countered by other DDs, and generally have to be really skilled/lucky to live through the initial battle chaos to even be alive to choose when to engage, and aren't over-the-top effective when they ARE able to do it. Risk > Reward.

BB/CA players will say that a DD could sit outside of detection range and toss torps all day long and there is nothing they can do except dodge torps. (easy if you're paying attention, hard if you've got lots of other threats happening)

Wargaming agrees with the BB/CA players that it's a problem that DDs, (through low detection and high speed) can choose when and where to engage if there are no other DDs (or CVs) around to help hunt them down.

If you follow that logic, than one of the only solutions to a problem where the fastest and least detectable class needs to be countered, and you can't resort to any form movement restriction, is to introduce: Alpha Strike

Alpha strike is a huge amount of upfront damage that can cripple or kill a target. Without an alpha strike, a DD will just speed back out of detection range and escape, allowing them to go back to choosing when and where to engage. Even escaping with 1 HP left is enough for a DD to regain complete battle initiative.

WG's Solution: Radar is intended to be an alpha strike vs DDs.

It makes perfect sense. It's binary. It affects all enemy ships equally, regardless of speed or detectability. It goes through islands, not by accident, but intentionally. It's why no amount of debate regarding DD performance will convince WG to change their mind about radar to make it more balanced. It's not intended to be balanced. It's intended to alpha strike DDs, which is the only way to prevent them from choosing when and where to engage. It's intended to be an insta-kill in most, if not all, situations.

So, yes. They could make it less effective, in any number of ways, for it to be balanced. But that's not the goal. Any balance would negate the whole reason it was put in. It needs to alpha strike to stop DDs from choosing when and where to attack, because many people believe it's a fundamental design flaw if CA/BBs cannot hunt down and kill DDs. 

 

I don’t agree with any of this. That being said, speed boost used to hurt concealment. It mostly sat as an unused consumable (at least from me) until the end of match. Just poor mechanics in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
3,420 posts
6,264 battles
8 minutes ago, HazardDrake said:

They still weren’t capable of hitting a fleeing IJN destroyer. 

They straddled it from an incredibly long range with the first salvo. The West Virginia hit the Yamishiro on the first salvo at 26,000 yards at night. The MK-8 worked and was a huge leap in capability over optical and more primitive fire control computers. After the war the USN did an experiment where a fast battleship did a max speed figure 8, they were able to drop continuous and accurate fire on the target. It was a marvel of engineering. It even corrected for the curvature of the earth, the rotation of the earth, the magnus effect(Spinning of the shell), air temperature, air pressure, wind speed, sea state, temperature of the powder, how many rounds had been fired through each barrel since it had it's liner replaced. 

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
666
[LUCK]
Members
1,696 posts
23,769 battles
24 minutes ago, Comrade_Nemo said:

Terrible idea.   Whomever has suggested this has never played DD's.

Pretty sure the one that suggested it ranked out in a Shima so I think he may know something about DD play.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,783 posts
28 minutes ago, Comrade_Nemo said:

Terrible idea.   Whomever has suggested this has never played DD's.

If i read this correctly,  it's a response to radar?   That's Bass Ackwards.

Time to bring out some of the cry babies lol.  Lets see how many people say how much you hate dds.  But I will second for this.  DDs running speed boost should be detectable.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
537
[MIA-P]
Members
2,201 posts
11,422 battles
42 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Wargaming considers it a problem that DDs are able to escape from BB/CAs because they are faster and have lower detection. They likely consider this an issue because a skilled DD player can have their way with an inexperienced BB/CA player.

They do?  Since when?  I don't recall ever seeing them say so in Q&As, etc.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
161
[AWP]
Members
785 posts
3,318 battles
13 minutes ago, SuperSpud1 said:

Time to bring out some of the cry babies lol.  Lets see how many people say how much you hate dds.  But I will second for this.  DDs running speed boost should be detectable.  

You realize speed boost used to have a negative impact on concealment until WG recognized it was a poor mechanic and changed it... It makes sense thinking about it in a real life: an engine goes into high rpm range so it spits out more smoke and there is more wake. But in game balancing it makes little sense unless the concumable is able to be turned on and off or an extra speed slow above full forward and full reverse was put in. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,212
[-K-]
Members
6,605 posts
10,961 battles

Don't DDs already have it hard enough right now?

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
3,484 posts
3,796 battles

That doesn't feel like something that should be exclusive to DDs, and if done to all ships that would make games even slower and concealment expert builds a bit more interesting. May even throw off the torpedo bombers. That said while the top players may manage, it's going to make life for everyone else suffering. Especially when kiting or trying to get out of a bad spot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×