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Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu

US cruisers: What the numbers say after two weeks.

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Pensacola: Pretty mediocre at Tier 6, on par with Aoba. Overall she's performing similarly in terms of numbers as she did at Tier 7. On average she's doing worse than Budyonny, Leander / Perth, Graf Spee, the French one, but still performs better than Nurnberg. Overall I'd say she's middle-of-the-pack for Tier 6. Her K/D and average ship kills is below that of the old Cleveland.

New Orleans: I feel the down-tiering has benefited her. She's now more in-line with her tier contemporaries, and does just about right for a Tier 7 heavy cruiser on part with Myoko and definitely performing better than the Tier 7 Pensacola. She still lags behind Shchors, Belfast, Fiji, and the French, but does better than Atlanta and Indianapolis due to virtue of being better / less challenging to play. Having said this, I love the Atlanta.

 

Cleveland / Baltimore: I'm a bit surprised at Cleveland's average damage being 46-47k, considering how so many people don't get the tricky and sometimes situational play style of USN CLs. She's basically at the upper end of Tier 8, performing slightly below MK and Charles Martel, while doing better than Mogami, Chapayev, and Hipper. Baltimore beinf down-tiered to 8, retaining the 10-second reload and SHS, has also benefited her. She's doing around 5k more damage on average than when she was at Tier 9.

 

Buffalo: About the same, not too far behind the other Tier 9 cruisers. In terms of damage Kronstadht stands out because it's a BC and a freemium.

 

Overall I'd say the line split has brought USN cruisers to middling competitive levels, and more viable compared to before.

 

 

As for my predictions for the upcoming CLs:

1. Dallas: She is, in every way, worse than the Cleveland at Tier 6. She won't be a popular ship, period. Less guns, less armor, less AA. I'd expect her to pull numbers similar to Nurnberg, if they're higher, it won't be by much. Plus the fact she's a fictional ship, and I make it a rule (for now) not to play fictional ships.

 

2. Helena: The go-to ship for most players (of all skill levels) on the CL line. She'll become the most played CL in the line, if not, she'll only be behind Cleveland and Cleveland has the familiarity factor. She'd pull numbers in line with NO and Myoko, perhaps Algerie, but she won't be beating Belfast, Fiji, or Shchors in any category. She'd be like the old Cleveland a tier higher. I'd expect the number of battles played in her to rise rapidly. I predict a win rate that's not higher than Myoko / NO, and an average damage of 36-41k.

 

3. Seattle: She'd do worse than Cleveland a tier lower, because she is, in pretty much every way, a worse Cleveland except that she has a heal. I'd not expect anything good numbers from her.

 

4. Worcester: She's perform a bit worse in terms of numbers than Des Moines, because she'd basically be a larger Atlanta that demands a very particular playstyle. I'd expect her to be below Des Moines and perhaps Minotaur as well, to be the worst performing Tier 10 cruiser.

 

Overall I'd say the number of battles played in USN CLs will be concentrated at Helena and Cleveland, less of an even distribution compared to the CAs. If you don't like Helena and Cleveland, you'd likely want to give up. These ships, on average, won't be performing better than the CAs, and may perform worse in terms of all the numbers, because they require more of a special playstyle and are fragile like almost any other cruiser.

 

Boise: She'd be around the same as Helena in terms of stats, perhaps slightly worse due to the reduced gun range and reload. She has radar, but Indy and Atlanta also have radar and they aren't star performers at Tier 7. The only radar cruiser at T7 that's a high flying performer is Belfast.

Edited by Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu
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Helena being a T7 irritates the hell out of me. I want to play her because of Cape Esperance/Neptune's Inferno, but I greatly dislike higher tier games...

...she may wind up being Co-op only like Buffalo has.

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8 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Helena being a T7 irritates the hell out of me. I want to play her because of Cape Esperance/Neptune's Inferno, but I greatly dislike higher tier games...

...she may wind up being Co-op only like Buffalo has.

TIer 7 still gets the best matchmaking in random battles, she should be fine, I hope. Cleveland at Tier 8 regularly sees IX and X matches, Tiers 5 and 6 are also regularly up-tiered. At Tier 7 there's still a good chance you'll be top tier. I'd just play her as a Cleveland (old) at Tier 7, it looks like most of the time I'll be firing 12 guns because apparently one of the turrets has an awkward angle. I did relatively well in Cleveland at Tier 6, as well as the Atlanta, so Helena is a ship I'm looking forward to.

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13 minutes ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Helena being a T7 irritates the hell out of me. I want to play her because of Cape Esperance/Neptune's Inferno, but I greatly dislike higher tier games...

...she may wind up being Co-op only like Buffalo has.

Tier VII is fine for her, no way in hell you're going to have 152mm x15 in Tier VI or lower without some seriously stupid game balance concessions.

 

Cleveland was already pushing the limits with the same shell flight characteristics but "only" having 12 of those same guns.  Meanwhile most other CLs at VI or below are 9 or so guns.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Tier VII is fine for her, no way in hell you're going to have 152mm x15 in Tier VI or lower without some seriously stupid game balance concessions.

Also the fact that her reload of 8.5 seconds isn't too bad considering she has 3 more guns than Cleveland and old Cleveland's reload was 7.5 seconds. I think I'm going to play the hell out of her, and I'll also pick up Boise if it stays as Boise.

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Just now, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Tier VII is fine for her, no way in hell you're going to have 152mm x15 in Tier VI or lower without some seriously stupid game balance concessions.

Yeah, but I don't seem to be able to grasp 'hide and shoot.' (Like with DM, I hide, and wind up not being able to shoot anything, or I hide, and somehow that's actually the perfect spot for the Reds to shoot the hell out of me.)

At least at tier six I would be able to move around a bit more like I did with T6 Cleveland.

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Seattle won't be that bad I think, purely because as a tier IX she has access to the final upgrade slot. So her true reload won't be 6.5 sec as stated in wiki, but 5.7sec  or so. Might not be a big buff, but with the heal it might just make it work.

Edited by warheart1992

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Just now, Estimated_Prophet said:

Yeah, but I don't seem to be able to grasp 'hide and shoot.' (Like with DM, I hide, and wind up not being able to shoot anything, or I hide, and somehow that's actually the perfect spot for the Reds to shoot the hell out of me.)

At least at tier six I would be able to move around a bit more like I did with T6 Cleveland.

Even the Tier 6 Cleveland wasn't as tanky as I thought she would be. Compared to other cruisers at Tier 6 she did have the best armor, but I still found that the best use of her guns was to shoot over islands while reversing / going forward at 1/4 speed as necessary. Could she fight in open water? Sure she could, and the Helena will also be to as long as she has enough support. However, prolonged fighting in open water isn't the best use of her / Cleveland's guns. They don't have the arcs to reliably hit stuff past 12.5km that's maneuvering, unless it's a BB. They depend somewhat on 1. Your team being aggressive and drawing fire / giving support   2. The enemy team being aggressive and pushing into you.   Having said this, I have watched a few replays on Youtube where those players handled Des Moines in open water like a boss.

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3 minutes ago, warheart1992 said:

Seattle won't be that bad I think, purely because as a tier IX she has access to the final upgrade slot. So her true reload won't be 6.5 sec as stated in wiki, but 5.7sec  or so. Might not be a bit buff, but with the heal it might just make it work.

What I also don't like about these high tier cruisers is how they're generally less maneuverable than their mid-tier counterparts.

Helena at Tier 7 has 680m turning circle (anything below 700m I consider very good) and 9.2 second rudder shift time (7.36 seconds with rudder shift mod)

Atlanta at Tier 7 has 610m turning circle and 8.4 second rudder shift (6.72 seconds with rudder shift mod)

New Orleans at Tier 7 has 660m turning circle and 6.9 second rudder shift (5.5 seconds with rudder shift mod)

Cleveland has 660m turning circle and 7.2 second rudder shift time-same as when she was Tier 6 (5.8 seconds with rudder shift mod)

Baltimore has 730m turning circle and 7.8 second rudder shift (6.2 seconds with rudder shift mod)

Indianapolis has 620m turning circle and 8.4 second rudder shift (6.72 seconds with rudder shift mod)

 

 

However, once we get to Tiers 9 and 10:

Seattle's actually... fine.

Buffalo has 11.2 second rudder shift with 800m turning radius. That's going to feel worse than a lot of dreadnoughts, even some of the Japanese BBs.

I'd say overall high tier cruisers just feel worse in the maneuverability department.

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17 hours ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

Also the fact that her reload of 8.5 seconds isn't too bad considering she has 3 more guns than Cleveland and old Cleveland's reload was 7.5 seconds. I think I'm going to play the hell out of her, and I'll also pick up Boise if it stays as Boise.

I think she is going to be superb in Operations. 

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I expect Worcester to be a beast in clan battles and suck in randoms.  She looks like a ship that is heavily reliant on a coordinated team, and can greatly benefit a coordinated team.  She looks to be the prototypical support boat able to make everyone around her stronger, but reliant on everyone around her defending her.

 

Basically the Des Moines playstyle exaggerated; less capable of solo play but even better in team play.

Edited by Shadeylark

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3 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Helena being a T7 irritates the hell out of me. I want to play her because of Cape Esperance/Neptune's Inferno, but I greatly dislike higher tier games...

Tier 7 is not "high tier".  It has some of the most favorable match making in the game and usually gets to be top tier.  You'll never see Tier 10s, and Tier 9 ships play far less passively when put in Tier 7 matches.  

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5 hours ago, yashma said:

Tier 7 is not "high tier".  It has some of the most favorable match making in the game and usually gets to be top tier.  You'll never see Tier 10s, and Tier 9 ships play far less passively when put in Tier 7 matches.  

When I’m on it might as well be, I do seem to get uptiered a lot... :Smile_sceptic:

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I'm sad to hear the Cleveland is generally less well regarded than she was tier VI, but this at least shows her doing reasonably well.  

The best part of the split for me so far has been to confirm that I still hate Pensacola, but with a free Tier VII NO and Tier VIII Cleveland it doesn't matter!  Sailed one match in her and sold her with a smile.  Every ship can bring happiness...some when they port, some when they scuttle.  P-cola was certainly the latter.  

I logged a handful of matches this morning, blessed by MM, but couldn't bring myself to take out NO or Cleveland.  I did, however, use my North Carolina to apply a liberal helping of "cruiser be gone" to a Cleveland I encountered at close range, so that sort of scratched the itch.

Edited by Mahrs

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27 minutes ago, Mahrs said:

I'm sad to hear the Cleveland is generally less well regarded than she was tier VI, but this at least shows her doing reasonably well.  

The best part of the split for me so far has been to confirm that I still hate Pensacola, but with a free Tier VII NO and Tier VIII Cleveland it doesn't matter!  Sailed one match in her and sold her with a smile.  Every ship can bring happiness...some when they port, some when they scuttle.  P-cola was certainly the latter.  

I logged a handful of matches this morning, blessed by MM, but couldn't bring myself to take out NO or Cleveland.  I did, however, use my North Carolina to apply a liberal helping of "cruiser be gone" to a Cleveland I encountered at close range, so that sort of scratched the itch.

Cleveland is fine, she has tons of tools to help the team.  However, it requires a vastly different playstyle than what she easily got away with at Tier VI.

 

In Tier VI, BB gunnery is very wonky.

In Tier VI, you have BBs with laughable gun ranges, i.e. NM barely reaching 16km

In Tier VI, you still have lots of Cruisers firing piddly 152mm guns.

In Tier VI, you had tons of BBs with 21kt or so max speed, give or take a few knots.

 

But at Tier VIII

BB gunnery has good range and more respectable precision.

Many Cruiser Lines are deep into their transition into adopting CA-grade guns.  CAs are meant to kill CLs easily.

The speed of the game has gone up, even the numerous Battleships at Tier VIII are fast.  30kts or so isn't surprising, 27kts from NC & 'Bama is considered "slow" now.  Compare that at Tier VI where you had USN BBs at 21kts.

 

I haven't even tossed in the Tier IX-X threats, which are considerable.  So if you play like you were still in Tier VI, shooting at BBs like Cleveland did there because their gunnery sucks, you'll get rekt in High Tier.  Try that against Amagi, Iowa, Missouri, Montana, Yamato, etc.  The CAs, especially the Tier X ones, will brutalize you.  We had a guy around here talking about how he took his Cleveland into a gunfight with a Zao... Yeah, I wonder how *THAT* turned out :Smile_teethhappy:... And he was shocked with the result of losing to the CA.

 

IMO, the playstyle of the USN Cruisers, both CL & CA, are pretty similar.  There's things the other is better at than the other, but in general, they're identical.  People either understand it and love it, or they complain about them on the boards.  Think back on all the USN Cruiser threads that existed before the USN CL split started to hit.  They were all pretty abysmal.  Sure, there were even USN CAs that were widely panned like NOLA, Pensacola, but even others at high tier, even DM, weren't seen as "the ideal"... Except by the guys that knew that they're not like other Cruiser Lines.

 

There is a great danger with these USN CLs that I foresee is that unless they got help, they are prone to being rushed and crushed.  They camp an island and a BB or even CA can come rushing in an obliterate them.  The USN CLs don't have torpedoes for instant, point blank alpha damage that would scare any ship.  The USN CLs don't have the 203mm SHS AP that would make another Cruiser, even a Battleship weigh their considerations before rushing in.  CL guns are damage over time oriented ships, not alpha-strike killers in 1-2 salvos, especially the bigger the target and heavier the armor.

 

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone USN CL behind that island.  The answer is obvious.  Rush in and crush the ant.  Too small guns, no torps to scare your BB.

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Prinz Eugen / Adm.Hipper behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty, they got a pair of torp launchers per side...

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Des Moines behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty.  She doesn't have torps but at close range, DM can do things to pound your BB with HE or worse, get to your sides and rip you apart with SHS AP shells.  She also has a 27mm bow to bounce your AP 380mm AP.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway
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21 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Cleveland is fine, she has tons of tools to help the team.  However, it requires a vastly different playstyle than what she easily got away with at Tier VI.

 

In Tier VI, BB gunnery is very wonky.

In Tier VI, you have BBs with laughable gun ranges, i.e. NM barely reaching 16km

In Tier VI, you still have lots of Cruisers firing piddly 152mm guns.

In Tier VI, you had tons of BBs with 21kt or so max speed, give or take a few knots.

 

But at Tier VIII

BB gunnery has good range and more respectable precision.

Many Cruiser Lines are deep into their transition into adopting CA-grade guns.  CAs are meant to kill CLs easily.

The speed of the game has gone up, even the numerous Battleships at Tier VIII are fast.  30kts or so isn't surprising, 27kts from NC & 'Bama is considered "slow" now.  Compare that at Tier VI where you had USN BBs at 21kts.

 

I haven't even tossed in the Tier IX-X threats, which are considerable.  So if you play like you were still in Tier VI, shooting at BBs like Cleveland did there because their gunnery sucks, you'll get rekt in High Tier.  Try that against Amagi, Iowa, Missouri, Montana, Yamato, etc.  The CAs, especially the Tier X ones, will brutalize you.  We had a guy around here talking about how he took his Cleveland into a gunfight with a Zao... Yeah, I wonder how *THAT* turned out :Smile_teethhappy:... And he was shocked with the result of losing to the CA.

 

IMO, the playstyle of the USN Cruisers, both CL & CA, are pretty similar.  There's things the other is better at than the other, but in general, they're identical.  People either understand it and love it, or they complain about them on the boards.  Think back on all the USN Cruiser threads that existed before the USN CL split started to hit.  They were all pretty abysmal.  Sure, there were even USN CAs that were widely panned like NOLA, Pensacola, but even others at high tier, even DM, weren't seen as "the ideal"... Except by the guys that knew that they're not like other Cruiser Lines.

 

There is a great danger with these USN CLs that I foresee is that unless they got help, they are prone to being rushed and crushed.  They camp an island and a BB or even CA can come rushing in an obliterate them.  The USN CLs don't have torpedoes for instant, point blank alpha damage that would scare any ship.  The USN CLs don't have the 203mm SHS AP that would make another Cruiser, even a Battleship weigh their considerations before rushing in.  CL guns are damage over time oriented ships, not alpha-strike killers in 1-2 salvos, especially the bigger the target and heavier the armor.

 

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone USN CL behind that island.  The answer is obvious.  Rush in and crush the ant.  Too small guns, no torps to scare your BB.

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Prinz Eugen / Adm.Hipper behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty, they got a pair of torp launchers per side...

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Des Moines behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty.  She doesn't have torps but at close range, DM can do things to pound your BB with HE or worse, get to your sides and rip you apart with SHS AP shells.  She also has a 27mm bow to bounce your AP 380mm AP.

Thanks for spelling it all out Haze!! 

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10 minutes ago, thebigblue said:

Thanks for spelling it all out Haze!! 

It's just that I got disappointed with the things I saw before I took my current break.

 

Watching newer VIII Cleveland, IX Buffalo, VIII Baltimore cruisers trying to trade shots with High Tier BBs in open water, while the team's DDs are unsupported.  No AA, no Radar support for the team DDs because they're too busy trying to land fires on a BB that is 1-salvo away from deleting them.

 

Watching Clevelands too concerned with setting fires on a Missouri that's about to delete them, while the Cleveland could have went fairly close to the caps so their Radar could help kill or at the very least, fend off enemy DDs from the cap.  Or provide the AA to punish the CV when they try to go for the DDs in the cap... And the CV ALWAYS goes for DDs at caps at the start of the match, because they literally have nothing else to do at that stage.  Yet we see these Support USN Cruisers more concerned about setting a fire.

 

Why am I watching these Cruisers trading shots with High Tier BBs at 14-15km in open water?  That's EASY range for High Tier BBs!

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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USN cruisers are heavily map dependent,  some maps are okay but most of them are just not designed good enough for them.  this will always be the major downside to the USN cruiser line, as a whole it will always be a mediocre line with some good ships in it.

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36 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Cleveland is fine, she has tons of tools to help the team.  However, it requires a vastly different playstyle than what she easily got away with at Tier VI.

 

In Tier VI, BB gunnery is very wonky.

In Tier VI, you have BBs with laughable gun ranges, i.e. NM barely reaching 16km

In Tier VI, you still have lots of Cruisers firing piddly 152mm guns.

In Tier VI, you had tons of BBs with 21kt or so max speed, give or take a few knots.

 

But at Tier VIII

BB gunnery has good range and more respectable precision.

Many Cruiser Lines are deep into their transition into adopting CA-grade guns.  CAs are meant to kill CLs easily.

The speed of the game has gone up, even the numerous Battleships at Tier VIII are fast.  30kts or so isn't surprising, 27kts from NC & 'Bama is considered "slow" now.  Compare that at Tier VI where you had USN BBs at 21kts.

 

I haven't even tossed in the Tier IX-X threats, which are considerable.  So if you play like you were still in Tier VI, shooting at BBs like Cleveland did there because their gunnery sucks, you'll get rekt in High Tier.  Try that against Amagi, Iowa, Missouri, Montana, Yamato, etc.  The CAs, especially the Tier X ones, will brutalize you.  We had a guy around here talking about how he took his Cleveland into a gunfight with a Zao... Yeah, I wonder how *THAT* turned out :Smile_teethhappy:... And he was shocked with the result of losing to the CA.

 

IMO, the playstyle of the USN Cruisers, both CL & CA, are pretty similar.  There's things the other is better at than the other, but in general, they're identical.  People either understand it and love it, or they complain about them on the boards.  Think back on all the USN Cruiser threads that existed before the USN CL split started to hit.  They were all pretty abysmal.  Sure, there were even USN CAs that were widely panned like NOLA, Pensacola, but even others at high tier, even DM, weren't seen as "the ideal"... Except by the guys that knew that they're not like other Cruiser Lines.

 

There is a great danger with these USN CLs that I foresee is that unless they got help, they are prone to being rushed and crushed.  They camp an island and a BB or even CA can come rushing in an obliterate them.  The USN CLs don't have torpedoes for instant, point blank alpha damage that would scare any ship.  The USN CLs don't have the 203mm SHS AP that would make another Cruiser, even a Battleship weigh their considerations before rushing in.  CL guns are damage over time oriented ships, not alpha-strike killers in 1-2 salvos, especially the bigger the target and heavier the armor.

 

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone USN CL behind that island.  The answer is obvious.  Rush in and crush the ant.  Too small guns, no torps to scare your BB.

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Prinz Eugen / Adm.Hipper behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty, they got a pair of torp launchers per side...

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Des Moines behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty.  She doesn't have torps but at close range, DM can do things to pound your BB with HE or worse, get to your sides and rip you apart with SHS AP shells.  She also has a 27mm bow to bounce your AP 380mm AP.

 

^^Truth.  +1 if I had it.

The Tier VIII Cleveland certainly takes some getting used to.  Especially when stock.  A much more measured and cautious approach is required now.  Almost can't do anything for much of the match, not until the late game when the herds are culled.

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10 hours ago, Estimated_Prophet said:

Yeah, but I don't seem to be able to grasp 'hide and shoot.' (Like with DM, I hide, and wind up not being able to shoot anything, or I hide, and somehow that's actually the perfect spot for the Reds to shoot the hell out of me.)

Yeah, I'm not much good with that either. Cleveland was probably my least favorite T6 cruiser.

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's just that I got disappointed with the things I saw before I took my current break.

 

Watching newer VIII Cleveland, IX Buffalo, VIII Baltimore cruisers trying to trade shots with High Tier BBs in open water, while the team's DDs are unsupported.  No AA, no Radar support for the team DDs because they're too busy trying to land fires on a BB that is 1-salvo away from deleting them.

 

Watching Clevelands too concerned with setting fires on a Missouri that's about to delete them, while the Cleveland could have went fairly close to the caps so their Radar could help kill or at the very least, fend off enemy DDs from the cap.  Or provide the AA to punish the CV when they try to go for the DDs in the cap... And the CV ALWAYS goes for DDs at caps at the start of the match, because they literally have nothing else to do at that stage.  Yet we see these Support USN Cruisers more concerned about setting a fire.

 

Why am I watching these Cruisers trading shots with High Tier BBs at 14-15km in open water?  That's EASY range for High Tier BBs!

IMO and in no particular order

1) random gameplay not as conscientious as ranked or clan battle. You just don’t see as much of the stupidity in the later modes of play.

2) free xp for tier jumping instead of only module upgrades (general problem not Cleve only)

3) cruiser driver adaptation issue acclimating to higher demands on awareness in face of increased lethality of tier 8-10. This is similar to other types dealing with current temporary radar overload.

Im about 58% wr in Cleve with 100 matches and I can say that it’s a great boat if you can balance aggression with survival, make opportunities happen without suiciding and accept that Cleveland is now strongest as part of a group rather than the  death machine it was in tier6. Again, just my opinion.

Edited by thebigblue

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10 hours ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

What I also don't like about these high tier cruisers is how they're generally less maneuverable than their mid-tier counterparts.

That's pretty much universal though. T9 tends to mark a new threshold of cumbersome for CAs (and BBs) in general.

I basically stopped my BB progression after T8, after experiencing the difference between Bis and FdG, and seeing a similar change in numbers for other nations from T8 to T9.

Same experience with KM CAs, although Hindy and Roon, while noticeably clumsier than Hipper, don't handle badly.

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11 hours ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

Pensacola: Pretty mediocre at Tier 6, on par with Aoba. Overall she's performing similarly in terms of numbers as she did at Tier 7. On average she's doing worse than Budyonny, Leander / Perth, Graf Spee, the French one, but still performs better than Nurnberg. Overall I'd say she's middle-of-the-pack for Tier 6. Her K/D and average ship kills is below that of the old Cleveland.

New Orleans: I feel the down-tiering has benefited her. She's now more in-line with her tier contemporaries, and does just about right for a Tier 7 heavy cruiser on part with Myoko and definitely performing better than the Tier 7 Pensacola. She still lags behind Shchors, Belfast, Fiji, and the French, but does better than Atlanta and Indianapolis due to virtue of being better / less challenging to play. Having said this, I love the Atlanta.

 

Cleveland / Baltimore: I'm a bit surprised at Cleveland's average damage being 46-47k, considering how so many people don't get the tricky and sometimes situational play style of USN CLs. She's basically at the upper end of Tier 8, performing slightly below MK and Charles Martel, while doing better than Mogami, Chapayev, and Hipper. Baltimore beinf down-tiered to 8, retaining the 10-second reload and SHS, has also benefited her. She's doing around 5k more damage on average than when she was at Tier 9.

 

Buffalo: About the same, not too far behind the other Tier 9 cruisers. In terms of damage Kronstadht stands out because it's a BC and a freemium.

 

Overall I'd say the line split has brought USN cruisers to middling competitive levels, and more viable compared to before.

 

 

As for my predictions for the upcoming CLs:

1. Dallas: She is, in every way, worse than the Cleveland at Tier 6. She won't be a popular ship, period. Less guns, less armor, less AA. I'd expect her to pull numbers similar to Nurnberg, if they're higher, it won't be by much. Plus the fact she's a fictional ship, and I make it a rule (for now) not to play fictional ships.

 

2. Helena: The go-to ship for most players (of all skill levels) on the CL line. She'll become the most played CL in the line, if not, she'll only be behind Cleveland and Cleveland has the familiarity factor. She'd pull numbers in line with NO and Myoko, perhaps Algerie, but she won't be beating Belfast, Fiji, or Shchors in any category. She'd be like the old Cleveland a tier higher. I'd expect the number of battles played in her to rise rapidly. I predict a win rate that's not higher than Myoko / NO, and an average damage of 36-41k.

 

3. Seattle: She'd do worse than Cleveland a tier lower, because she is, in pretty much every way, a worse Cleveland except that she has a heal. I'd not expect anything good numbers from her.

 

4. Worcester: She's perform a bit worse in terms of numbers than Des Moines, because she'd basically be a larger Atlanta that demands a very particular playstyle. I'd expect her to be below Des Moines and perhaps Minotaur as well, to be the worst performing Tier 10 cruiser.

 

Overall I'd say the number of battles played in USN CLs will be concentrated at Helena and Cleveland, less of an even distribution compared to the CAs. If you don't like Helena and Cleveland, you'd likely want to give up. These ships, on average, won't be performing better than the CAs, and may perform worse in terms of all the numbers, because they require more of a special playstyle and are fragile like almost any other cruiser.

 

Boise: She'd be around the same as Helena in terms of stats, perhaps slightly worse due to the reduced gun range and reload. She has radar, but Indy and Atlanta also have radar and they aren't star performers at Tier 7. The only radar cruiser at T7 that's a high flying performer is Belfast.

I'm actually quite pleased with them. I do really wish they'd speed Pensacola's turret traverse a bit, but I think time will bear out whether that is necessary. That being said I've done pretty well with her. People are playing the Halsey missions so much that my Pensacola has barely seen a T8. She can shred her fellow T6 cruisers, and chunk a lot of HP out of BBs. Pensacola is all about surviving the reprisal attack. Nothing about that has changed other than the fact that the ships doing the reprisal are weaker on average. The ship just has a very high skill floor. 

Honestly, NO is just meh to me. I find her worse than Indy because she is so blind without the radar. The isn't a bad ship by any means, I just have no reason to play her when Indy provides a better team benefit with radar. With the short duration though you do have to call out to your teammates when you are planning to use it so they can be ready. I cannot remember the last time NO's float plane ever did anything useful for me. 

I LOVE Baltimore on T8. This one is a vast improvement. With her SHS shells she eats T8 cruiser for lunch, and with her bow armor she doesn't have to fear about half of the T8 BBs. She also has enough AA to not worry about T8 CVs and with enough range to protect the team. Oh, and she has a good radar. The loss of the heal hurts (pun intended) but the ship is more durable and better than T10 NO in pretty much every way. 

Buffalo is an interesting ship to me. I like that they added in at T9. It provides a nice playstyle evolution between Baltimore and Des Moines and it has a personality all its own with 12x8" on T8.  Her alpha strike is very nice but if you have DM (as I do) there is no point to her unless you really just love the broadside cruiser playstyle for some reason. T9 does nothing special than I am aware of and the fact is has to show significant broadside to use its aft turrets is a significant downside. Indy, NO, Baltimore and DM all tend to fight bow-in to minimize your target profile and that keeps them alive. Buffalo fights most like Pensacola, but with better armor and a heal. Almost every BB Buffalo can see (and several CAs too) can blast it through the armor if it over-angles even a couple of degrees more than needed to fire all of its guns. That is very easy to do and not realize it. Us CAs with their bounce angles and plunging shells can hammer it even if it angles just enough to use them all.  If it is forced to fight bow in, it is effectively worse than Baltimore (although it still has a heal). I found out quickly on the PT server that a DM will eat Buffalo alive unless Buffalo can surprise it and get a salvo on the broadside. You always have to keep that in mind because NA servers are swimming with DMs (and Salems too soon) and Buffalo is almost guaranteed to see them by the job lot.

I was worried about Cleveland on T8, but it is a hoot with the unnerfed turret traverse and unnerfed secondaries. It is a nasty flamethrower to BBs (and it can attack from behind terrain where no BB can hit you) and it is deadly to DDs. They can't really spot Cleveland outside of its ability to radar them and the turret traverse and ROF are fast enough that the DD will probably not escape unless it was at the edge of radar range. If a DD manages to hit you with a torp that was your fault. CAs are Cleveland's biggest worry. THey are small and agile enough that they can be hard to hit with Cleveland's floaty arcs at near maximum ranges. Fires don't affect them nearly as much as BBs and most of them can chew through Cleveland's armor at ranges Cleveland prefers to fight. Baltmore, Buffalo, and DM can hit Cleveland in a lot of the places Cleveland prefers to hide and they can see you too with their own radar. All that being said, Cleveland feels like home now. 

I am really looking forward to Helena and especially Nueve de Julio. NdJ has a fast enough ROF to make deadly use of radar unlike Indy. (Honestly, I think giving her that good a radar was a mistake, but I will happily purchase that mistake.) T7 is a nice tier and I think these two will find good homes there. They don't have great armor, but nothing on T7 really does, especially against T8s. The only issue I have is I really wish they just called it the Brooklyn class and let the final hull version be Helena's hull since she was the most advanced of the Brooklyn sisters. They've done it before (Lexington in-game is really her sister Saratoga etc.) I also wish they would give us the option to get NdJ as Boise so I can use her as a trainer or let us put American captains in her (I also think ex British ships in Commonwealth service should also be able to take British captains), but I don't think that will happen. I really think NdJ is going to become a big go-to ship on T7. 

I'm not really expecting much from Dallas. It's just a filler. As long as it is not a disaster, it should be ok. (Oxymoron there. lol.) If it is a disaster they'll buff it. It really is just a paper ship to make the old nerfed Cleveland into a true T6 without sullying USS Cleveland's good name. Similar with Seattle, except it looks like it is slightly buffed over Cleveland. It's just a stepping stone to what people really want to play ….

I'm sure Worcester will play worse overall than DM, but that isn't a bad thing to me. She simply doesn't have all DM's tools. DM basically has all the benefits of both a CA and a CL. Worcester always was a specialized ship, like her little cousin Atlanta. I think she will be a good ship though, just a situational one and people will have to be good at arranging those situations. Unfortunately, T10 maps aren't blessed with an abundance of cover and I think that is what will hurt it the most. I fully expect it to be Cleveland … but even moreso (also with worse turret layout, bigger, and less agile.) 

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1 hour ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Cleveland is fine, she has tons of tools to help the team.  However, it requires a vastly different playstyle than what she easily got away with at Tier VI.

 

In Tier VI, BB gunnery is very wonky.

In Tier VI, you have BBs with laughable gun ranges, i.e. NM barely reaching 16km

In Tier VI, you still have lots of Cruisers firing piddly 152mm guns.

In Tier VI, you had tons of BBs with 21kt or so max speed, give or take a few knots.

 

But at Tier VIII

BB gunnery has good range and more respectable precision.

Many Cruiser Lines are deep into their transition into adopting CA-grade guns.  CAs are meant to kill CLs easily.

The speed of the game has gone up, even the numerous Battleships at Tier VIII are fast.  30kts or so isn't surprising, 27kts from NC & 'Bama is considered "slow" now.  Compare that at Tier VI where you had USN BBs at 21kts.

 

I haven't even tossed in the Tier IX-X threats, which are considerable.  So if you play like you were still in Tier VI, shooting at BBs like Cleveland did there because their gunnery sucks, you'll get rekt in High Tier.  Try that against Amagi, Iowa, Missouri, Montana, Yamato, etc.  The CAs, especially the Tier X ones, will brutalize you.  We had a guy around here talking about how he took his Cleveland into a gunfight with a Zao... Yeah, I wonder how *THAT* turned out :Smile_teethhappy:... And he was shocked with the result of losing to the CA.

 

IMO, the playstyle of the USN Cruisers, both CL & CA, are pretty similar.  There's things the other is better at than the other, but in general, they're identical.  People either understand it and love it, or they complain about them on the boards.  Think back on all the USN Cruiser threads that existed before the USN CL split started to hit.  They were all pretty abysmal.  Sure, there were even USN CAs that were widely panned like NOLA, Pensacola, but even others at high tier, even DM, weren't seen as "the ideal"... Except by the guys that knew that they're not like other Cruiser Lines.

 

There is a great danger with these USN CLs that I foresee is that unless they got help, they are prone to being rushed and crushed.  They camp an island and a BB or even CA can come rushing in an obliterate them.  The USN CLs don't have torpedoes for instant, point blank alpha damage that would scare any ship.  The USN CLs don't have the 203mm SHS AP that would make another Cruiser, even a Battleship weigh their considerations before rushing in.  CL guns are damage over time oriented ships, not alpha-strike killers in 1-2 salvos, especially the bigger the target and heavier the armor.

 

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone USN CL behind that island.  The answer is obvious.  Rush in and crush the ant.  Too small guns, no torps to scare your BB.

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Prinz Eugen / Adm.Hipper behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty, they got a pair of torp launchers per side...

You got a Bismarck and you know there's a lone Des Moines behind that island.  Let's not be too hasty.  She doesn't have torps but at close range, DM can do things to pound your BB with HE or worse, get to your sides and rip you apart with SHS AP shells.  She also has a 27mm bow to bounce your AP 380mm AP.

I agree and disagree. I do think that CLs are vulnerable to being overrun. They just have to be alert and abandon their positions if that is starting to happen. Usually you can see that type of thing unfolding. I disagree about cruiser torpedoes though. It is nice to have them but they are generally greatly overrated. Cruisers as a group are lousy torpedo boats. I've never seen a BB afraid to close on a Hipper and delete it because of 6km torpedoes. You have 5+ km of spotting on them to take action in most cases and it usually doesn't take a genius to figure out when they launched. Most BBs will happily eat a couple of torps to kill you if they have to, or better yet just kill the Hipper from 6.1km.  

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