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Splinterfuzz

Cleveland Tier, was it placed appropriately?

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On 6/13/2018 at 11:34 AM, Splinterfuzz said:

Simple question for people to toss their opinions, should the Cleveland have been placed in tier 7 instead of tier 8 making the split after Pensacola rather than the New Orleans?  I feel like it'd be matched more consistently with ships within its capability range as opposed to regularly being placed against tier 10.  I know WG isn't going to do it but what do the rest of you think?

I think when playing my zao it needs target practice:Smile_playing:

when playing my Cleveland I loath all tier ten Cruisers:Smile-angry:

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On 6/16/2018 at 12:32 PM, crzyhawk said:

The problem is, that the shell velocity of the Cleveland is low to the point that her shells are easy to dodge.  A Cleveland player is going to have to out-play me in order to kill me, because I can WASD around his shells.  Short of predicting my dodges and pre-adjusting his shots and counting on me to dodge INTO them, there's very little he can do.  On paper, yes Cleveland has the DPM to completely dismantle a New Orleans.  Getting those shells to land and take advantage of that DPM is the major issue. 

We're both the same speed, so he's going to struggle to close the range to such that I can no longer dodge his shots.  meanwhile, my shots are likely hitting because the faster shells are simply easier to land.  if I actually close the range on a Cleveland, well, then I deserve the vicious butt kicking that I will get.  In reality though, I am going to sit around 13-14k dance around his shots and pick him apart.  His best bet is to go dark and disengage and get the heck away from me...which I can do nothing about because of his superior stealth.  That's a net win though for me, because now I can keep him from places he may want to go.

I don't need to out-play the heavy cruiser. In fact usually I don't even bother shooting a full HP heavy cruiser with my Cleveland at typical ranges except to light him on fire or if there's nothing else to shoot.

I just need to keep dodging their fire while I burn and IFHE the enemy BBs to oblivion.

Then my BBs delete their heavy cruisers. Problem solved, sir!

 

I think Cleveland at Tier 8 is absolutely fine, so long as you have a 10+ point commander ready for it (Priority Target, Last Stand, that fire chance skill, and IFHE are all you need)

Edited by Guardian54

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She seems fine to me if there are islands (some increased mobility like acceleration would be nice). On more open maps she’d probably benefit from a bit smaller turning radius and a split citadel. With all of that being said, I’ve got 170k xp from base waiting on the release of the rest of the line that I generated with a 6pt captain. 

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if you can dodge my shells, I suppose that works.  If.

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Cleveland at Tier VIII is just fine if you have played High Tier (VIII-X) USN Cruisers before and know what to do with them.

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People grinding the line for the first time will have issues because these ships need a 14 point captain at minimum. They need CE and IFHE. Those aren't just nice things to have, those are absolute necessities to the functionality of the Cleveland.

 

And they will be absolute necessities to every US CL from tier 6 onward.

 

How many people grinding their first tier 6 have a 14 point captain? 

There's going to be a lot of raging about these ships being terribad because they're going to be terribad without a 14 point captain.

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I am ok with the Cleveland at T8, however I feel that the gun range, especially against the more stand-off T9 and T10 opponents you're likely to encounter, needs to be buffed slightly. An extra kilometer of range would help immensely. Other than that, having to run CE and IFHE is a bit onerous, but I can deal with it.

Just buff the gun range slightly to make it more competitive when uptiered.

PS-- I would take Chapayev over Cleveland any day of the week :Smile_glasses:

Edited by _Rumple_

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13 hours ago, ramp4ge said:

People grinding the line for the first time will have issues because these ships need a 14 point captain at minimum. They need CE and IFHE. Those aren't just nice things to have, those are absolute necessities to the functionality of the Cleveland.

 

And they will be absolute necessities to every US CL from tier 6 onward.

 

How many people grinding their first tier 6 have a 14 point captain? 

There's going to be a lot of raging about these ships being terribad because they're going to be terribad without a 14 point captain.

Dunno man. 10 points is working out OK for me.

And my captains generally hit 10 points during the Tier 7 grind to Tier 8, and I almost never mount camo! This means a player can get IFHE in time to deal damage to the top tiers in good time reliably.

2 hours ago, _Rumple_ said:

PS-- I would take Chapayev over Cleveland any day of the week :Smile_glasses:

You are comparing US and Russian vehicles in a Russian-made game. Nice joke.

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23 hours ago, ramp4ge said:

People grinding the line for the first time will have issues because these ships need a 14 point captain at minimum. They need CE and IFHE. Those aren't just nice things to have, those are absolute necessities to the functionality of the Cleveland.

 

And they will be absolute necessities to every US CL from tier 6 onward.

 

How many people grinding their first tier 6 have a 14 point captain? 

There's going to be a lot of raging about these ships being terribad because they're going to be terribad without a 14 point captain.

It's not just captain points.  High Tier USN Cruiser gameplay is nothing at all like before in the lower tiers.  You try that sh*t Cleveland did at Tier VI against Missouri, Montana, Yamato, Zao, Hindenburg, Moskva, you'll get rekt.

 

People either understand High Tier USN Cruisers or they don't and they'll struggle if they don't.  The track history of USN Cruisers at High Tier already has shown it to be a difficult thing to grasp, even DM gets whacked embarrassingly bad if not used right.  You try to play DM like you do Hindenburg, you'll get rekt.  Even before this split happened, NOLA, Baltimore, DM needed extra finesse to make work compared to IJN, German Cruisers.  The new USN CLs aren't any different in high tier.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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I'm not really sure what the Cleveland needs but I feel that my skill or strategy and effort put into matches has very little impact, especially when I'll encounter destroyers and from 9km away get hit by half a volley for 1/3 of my total HP on an HE citadel hit while I can hit them with 90% of a full volley from 5km and do squat.  Perhaps if that doesn't make a point there's when I get one single battleship round grazing my ship's tail and doing 95% of my HP.  Something is wrong with the Cleveland, be it the attack power or perhaps some problem with how damage or angles are getting calculated but holy crap do I find that I die from a lot of stupid things way more than I have in any other ship.  Sometimes I just say screw it and suicide so I can break or play another ship at this point.

Edited by Splinterfuzz

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On ‎6‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 12:32 PM, crzyhawk said:

The problem is, that the shell velocity of the Cleveland is low to the point that her shells are easy to dodge.  A Cleveland player is going to have to out-play me in order to kill me, because I can WASD around his shells.  Short of predicting my dodges and pre-adjusting his shots and counting on me to dodge INTO them, there's very little he can do.  On paper, yes Cleveland has the DPM to completely dismantle a New Orleans.  Getting those shells to land and take advantage of that DPM is the major issue. 

We're both the same speed, so he's going to struggle to close the range to such that I can no longer dodge his shots.  meanwhile, my shots are likely hitting because the faster shells are simply easier to land.  if I actually close the range on a Cleveland, well, then I deserve the vicious butt kicking that I will get.  In reality though, I am going to sit around 13-14k dance around his shots and pick him apart.  His best bet is to go dark and disengage and get the heck away from me...which I can do nothing about because of his superior stealth.  That's a net win though for me, because now I can keep him from places he may want to go.

The thing is, you are kind of describing the foundational balance of CA versus CL. CA's are supposed to space CL's out in exactly the manner you describe. That's what they get in return for lower DPM and generally less utility against other classes in conjunction with that. VMF and IJN CL can kind of mitigate that with their more powerful guns, but they're still even then weaker than most 8" cruisers in a range fight(French and German cruisers can both take advantage of them in this way).

Essentially, CL and CA are slightly different classes in game balance terms, much the way BC's can distinguish themselves from BB's. A CA is expected to be a bit worse at contesting caps with destroyers and at putting DPM onto battleships, in return for being more able to fend off cruisers, especially light cruisers where their armor/pen advantage and better ballistics let them space the enemy out.

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No, no that's not the difference.  RU CL has high velocity 152.  KM CL have high velocity 150.  The difference is ROF vs Alpha.  CA have higher alpha and lower ROF.  CL have high ROF and lower alpha.  Range plays very little into the balance factor.  I'll happily engage a 203mm cruiser from long range with a RU CL.  ROF trumps alpha in most situations imo.  The exception is the USN CL line, because a miss does zero damage, and USN CL are going to miss; a lot.

CL are just better than CA, just like it was IRL...except for the USN ships.  That last part is not at all like IRL.

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Cleveland at T6 was my favorite ship.  It was in no way OP. You could not should your side to any ship, buit bow on situations vs other cruisers you at least had a fighting chance.   But now it is so squishy as compared to other ships at T8 - T10.  Anything can pen it bow on, and do huge damage.  it's ROF buff in way shape or form makes up for the lack of survivability it has.  No smoke, no heal, no way to protect or help the ship except hid and shoot over rocks.  WG is doing american cruiser players a major disservice by designing ships around this play style.  It is not fun!!!

Couple all of this with the loss of the commander and research points it had leaves it in a bad place.  WG failed to give enough commander free XP to boost the captain back to whatever captain you had in it nor did they give enough free xp to move all the Captains back to their original ships.  The Pensacola is a wreck at T6, it is a waste of XP and the 18 point captain that came from the T6 cleveland.

WG basically took a crap on us, all the time and effort into building and playing the T6 Cleveland is GONE! Taken, it all has to be repeated at T8.  I feel cheated as the T8 Cleveland is way worse than the T6.

Should it be T7?  NO it should be T6!

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1 hour ago, AXELGREASE said:

Cleveland at T6 was my favorite ship.  It was in no way OP. You could not should your side to any ship, buit bow on situations vs other cruisers you at least had a fighting chance.   But now it is so squishy as compared to other ships at T8 - T10.  Anything can pen it bow on, and do huge damage.  it's ROF buff in way shape or form makes up for the lack of survivability it has.  No smoke, no heal, no way to protect or help the ship except hid and shoot over rocks.  WG is doing american cruiser players a major disservice by designing ships around this play style.  It is not fun!!!

Couple all of this with the loss of the commander and research points it had leaves it in a bad place.  WG failed to give enough commander free XP to boost the captain back to whatever captain you had in it nor did they give enough free xp to move all the Captains back to their original ships.  The Pensacola is a wreck at T6, it is a waste of XP and the 18 point captain that came from the T6 cleveland.

WG basically took a crap on us, all the time and effort into building and playing the T6 Cleveland is GONE! Taken, it all has to be repeated at T8.  I feel cheated as the T8 Cleveland is way worse than the T6.

Should it be T7?  NO it should be T6!

Because people like you are trying to play Tier VIII Cleveland the same way as you did at Tier VI.

 

I said it earlier in this thread, this same page even, that if you try that retarded Tier VI sh*t at Tier VIII, you'll get devoured.

 

VI Cleveland got away with that sh*t because gunnery was so pathetic in Tier VI.  The Tier V-VI BBs got problems hitting.  Many Cruisers don't have the alpha strike power, accuracy of later Cruisers.  If you're trying to sail in the open trading shots with Hindenburg, Moskva, Roon, Missouri, Iowa, Yamato, Musashi, GK, Alsace, North Carolina, Alabama, etc., YOU WILL GET REKT.

H-A-R-D.

 

Cleveland is doing fine.

aASFaZl.jpg

She's a good ship but honestly, I expected her stats to be much worse than this.  I expected a lot more guys that had Cleveland at Tier VI try her out at VIII and couldn't figure it out, which would drag her stats down a lot.  But that's not what happened.  A lot of guys have figured it out how to player her, which is really surprising to me.

iA82k94.jpg

The above shows all the USN Cruisers, sorted by WR%.  Cleveland not only has done well but she has done well with the most amount of action seen of all the newly released USN Cruisers, to include Buffalo (CA).  A lot of guys have figured her out.  But I'll tell you now, if your only thinking process to win is by Damage with Cleveland you're doing it with the wrong ship.

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On 7/1/2018 at 7:35 AM, crzyhawk said:

No, no that's not the difference.  RU CL has high velocity 152.  KM CL have high velocity 150.  The difference is ROF vs Alpha.  CA have higher alpha and lower ROF.  CL have high ROF and lower alpha.  Range plays very little into the balance factor.  I'll happily engage a 203mm cruiser from long range with a RU CL.  ROF trumps alpha in most situations imo.  The exception is the USN CL line, because a miss does zero damage, and USN CL are going to miss; a lot.

CL are just better than CA, just like it was IRL...except for the USN ships.  That last part is not at all like IRL.

^^

The above is why the USN CLs are bad at trading shots with ships.  If you have to deal damage, do it where the other guy cannot reply back in return, or has to do it under great difficulty.  Cleveland, Seattle, Worcester cannot afford to be trading shots in the open.

 

High powered, high velocity gun Cruisers, whether they are firing RU 152mm, IJN 155mm, or Non-USN 203mm+ guns, will eat your USN CL alive if the range is above 10km.  The USN CL shells float badly.  Zao, Prinz Eugen, Hindenburg, Roon, Moskva, D.Donskoi, etc. will pick you apart.

 

Then there's the threat of Battleships.  You're not seeing a lot of New Mexicos anymore that have trouble hitting stuff.  You are seeing the strongest, biggest, most accurate Battleship guns at Tier VIII-X.

I watch a Cleveland try to trade shots with a g0ddamn Missouri at 14km in open water.

WHY AM I SEEING THIS?

I watch a Seattle try to trade shots with Montana at similar ranges in open water.

WHY AM I SEEING THIS?

Why are these USN CL players willingly dive into such an awful engagement when they got 9.1km detection range (in Cleveland's case) to avoid that kind of fight?

 

Even a RU DD can pick a USN Cruiser apart.  All the RU DD has to do is stay above 10km and just keep shooting.  Most USN CAs have too poor concealment to deny that engagement and the RU DD will keep them lit.  But a USN CL is super stealthy and can deny that kind of fight.  But if the USN CL player obliges, the RU DD will whittle it down with no problems.  All it needs is time and a player dumb enough to oblige the fight.

 

People have to figure it out at Cleveland, because it isn't getting any easier at Tier IX-X.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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10 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Because people like you are trying to play Tier VIII Cleveland the same way as you did at Tier VI.

 

I said it earlier in this thread, this same page even, that if you try that retarded Tier VI sh*t at Tier VIII, you'll get devoured.

 

VI Cleveland got away with that sh*t because gunnery was so pathetic in Tier VI.  The Tier V-VI BBs got problems hitting.  Many Cruisers don't have the alpha strike power, accuracy of later Cruisers.  If you're trying to sail in the open trading shots with Hindenburg, Moskva, Roon, Missouri, Iowa, Yamato, Musashi, GK, Alsace, North Carolina, Alabama, etc., YOU WILL GET REKT.

H-A-R-D.

 

Cleveland is doing fine.

aASFaZl.jpg

She's a good ship but honestly, I expected her stats to be much worse than this.  I expected a lot more guys that had Cleveland at Tier VI try her out at VIII and couldn't figure it out, which would drag her stats down a lot.  But that's not what happened.  A lot of guys have figured it out how to player her, which is really surprising to me.

iA82k94.jpg

The above shows all the USN Cruisers, sorted by WR%.  Cleveland not only has done well but she has done well with the most amount of action seen of all the newly released USN Cruisers, to include Buffalo (CA).  A lot of guys have figured her out.  But I'll tell you now, if your only thinking process to win is by Damage with Cleveland you're doing it with the wrong ship.

One simple thing I have noticed about the T8 Cleve, having been here since the beginning, is that the old Cleveland is BAAAACK...

Not a complaint so much as an observation.  Clevelands are once again chasing my BBs doing huge damage as I mostly overpen them, when I hit them at all.  That's a well played one of course.  Just like the old days.

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No, no it is not back.  In the old days, Cleveland was a tough nut to crack, even with a bad player in it.  Now it's only a threat with a good to great player in it.

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15 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

Because people like you are trying to play Tier VIII Cleveland the same way as you did at Tier VI.

 

I said it earlier in this thread, this same page even, that if you try that retarded Tier VI sh*t at Tier VIII, you'll get devoured.

 

VI Cleveland got away with that sh*t because gunnery was so pathetic in Tier VI.  The Tier V-VI BBs got problems hitting.  Many Cruisers don't have the alpha strike power, accuracy of later Cruisers.  If you're trying to sail in the open trading shots with Hindenburg, Moskva, Roon, Missouri, Iowa, Yamato, Musashi, GK, Alsace, North Carolina, Alabama, etc., YOU WILL GET REKT.

H-A-R-D.

 

Cleveland is doing fine.

aASFaZl.jpg

She's a good ship but honestly, I expected her stats to be much worse than this.  I expected a lot more guys that had Cleveland at Tier VI try her out at VIII and couldn't figure it out, which would drag her stats down a lot.  But that's not what happened.  A lot of guys have figured it out how to player her, which is really surprising to me.

iA82k94.jpg

The above shows all the USN Cruisers, sorted by WR%.  Cleveland not only has done well but she has done well with the most amount of action seen of all the newly released USN Cruisers, to include Buffalo (CA).  A lot of guys have figured her out.  But I'll tell you now, if your only thinking process to win is by Damage with Cleveland you're doing it with the wrong ship.

Every week since release Cleveland's average damage numbers and win rate have fallen a bit. Until they stabilize somewhere there is no point is saying look her average win rate is X%.  It means nothing.  Once the numbers stabilize and remain relatively steady week on week, then spout her wr% and average damage #s.

 

As for how to play it, I understand and adjust by map and situation.  Some maps are not blessed with the right size island to shoot from and you know it. The ship is basically designed to fire from concealment, and WG gave it nothing, no smoke, no heal, nothing to assist with it's designed play style.  The ship is MEH at best.  It is too soft and certainly is not designed to play against T9 and T10 ships.  It is basically the same ship as T6 but moved to T8 and the ROF buff does not go far enough to compensate for its move to T8.  It might do OK at T7 as is, but at T8 it is just fish food once your spotted.   In every game you get spotted at some point, just a fact. 

 

As I have said many times, it is not a fun play style; hide and shoot from cover/concealment.

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14 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

No, no it is not back.  In the old days, Cleveland was a tough nut to crack, even with a bad player in it.  Now it's only a threat with a good to great player in it.

I will take THAT as a compliment!

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On 6/13/2018 at 1:07 PM, Inigo_M0ntoya said:

I mean in alpha and beta Cleveland was originally at tier 8.  I think it's fine.

Not this Cleveland, that one had more HP, longer guns, a split cit(almost impossible to hit), was faster, had 9km secondaries(that fired faster), and torp protection.

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3 hours ago, AXELGREASE said:

Every week since release Cleveland's average damage numbers and win rate have fallen a bit. Until they stabilize somewhere there is no point is saying look her average win rate is X%.  It means nothing.  Once the numbers stabilize and remain relatively steady week on week, then spout her wr% and average damage #s.

 

As for how to play it, I understand and adjust by map and situation.  Some maps are not blessed with the right size island to shoot from and you know it. The ship is basically designed to fire from concealment, and WG gave it nothing, no smoke, no heal, nothing to assist with it's designed play style.  The ship is MEH at best.  It is too soft and certainly is not designed to play against T9 and T10 ships.  It is basically the same ship as T6 but moved to T8 and the ROF buff does not go far enough to compensate for its move to T8.  It might do OK at T7 as is, but at T8 it is just fish food once your spotted.   In every game you get spotted at some point, just a fact. 

 

As I have said many times, it is not a fun play style; hide and shoot from cover/concealment.

So statistical performance with 178k matches since the short time Cleveland has been out doesn't count to defend her, but it's okay for everyone to condemn her with simple, "She sucks!" statements?

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Definitely need the IFHE with the Cleveland and you don't need the CE truthfully unless you have enough captain points for both. I'm using radar sometimes and the spotter planes at times to rain down shells on enemy ships from a very safe distance. My best games so for my average player skills have been in the 80-100K damage range. I must say I'm having more fun with her at Tier 8 than at Tier 6. :Smile_great:

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SO has crap for range so can't dodge  ,,, and no  FN HEAL so can't brawl . Why should we grind the cleveland .

 

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Most all of my friends were mad about Cleveland . We all loved the 6 ,,, But at 8 it's way under powered ...IF it only had a HEAL da da da .....We might not be so mad about the range

 

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