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Splinterfuzz

Cleveland Tier, was it placed appropriately?

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Simple question for people to toss their opinions, should the Cleveland have been placed in tier 7 instead of tier 8 making the split after Pensacola rather than the New Orleans?  I feel like it'd be matched more consistently with ships within its capability range as opposed to regularly being placed against tier 10.  I know WG isn't going to do it but what do the rest of you think?

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I agree it feel it's a little underwhelming at tier 8, 7 would have been much better.

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20 minutes ago, Grand_Viceroy_Zhou_Ziyu said:

I think Cleveland should be T7 instead. It's simply outclassed by T9s and 10s.

That isn't unique to her.  Almost all t8s are outclassed by t9 and  t10s. It's the nature of the tiering system. Many players driving them position like she is still t6 and get deleted.  She also requires a high skill point commander to shine.

Edited by RipNuN2
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I miss the Cleveland at tier 6, but I think she is where she needs to be at tier 8. Granted, I'm very new to higher tier 8, 9, and 10 matches with my only experience outside of the Cleveland in a handful of battles with the North Carolina and Edinburgh, but she really feels at home at tier 8 to me.

She was a little OP at tier 6, especially her AA DPM. The difference now is that you cannot get away with the same mistakes in tier 8, 9, and 10 matches and you cannot take a tier 8 light cruiser and try to get into a fair fight with tier 9 and 10 cruisers and battleships. You really couldn't do that against higher tier BBs when she was at tier 6, but you could get away with that mistake more than you could now that she sees tier 9 and 10 ships.

 

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49 minutes ago, Splinterfuzz said:

Simple question for people to toss their opinions, should the Cleveland have been placed in tier 7 instead of tier 8 making the split after Pensacola rather than the New Orleans?  I feel like it'd be matched more consistently with ships within its capability range as opposed to regularly being placed against tier 10.  I know WG isn't going to do it but what do the rest of you think?

They just didn't remove enuff of the nerfs  IE  they nerfed her to where she was not OP  at T6  and didn't buff her enufff for  T8  very underwhelming

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I mean in alpha and beta Cleveland was originally at tier 8.  I think it's fine.

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I was never a big fan of the Cleveland, though I acknowledge it was a good CA, I just preferred the Japanese CAs.  I did well in it, but never held my interest.  Now that it is T8, I actually am having pretty decent games and enjoy playing it...weird... and I think it fits in pretty well at T8.  It is a support ship, I try and help another ship out, but stay a bit back... I don't like island camping so will move around quite a bit.  I think it could really benefit from 2 knots of speed, it seems slow for a T8 that supposed to hunt DDs, 32 knots is underwelming when some of the BBs are hitting 30knots........

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2 minutes ago, Morpheous said:

I think it could really benefit from 2 knots of speed, it seems slow for a T8 that supposed to hunt DDs, 32 knots is underwelming when some of the BBs are hitting 30knots

Except one of the "national flavors" of the US line is they are limited to actual in-service speeds. No sea-trial speeds without guns or ammo, no designer spec speeds, no completely WG dreamed up speeds. Technically WG could play with the Dallas speed as a paper ship, but 32-33kts is likely.

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7 minutes ago, Morpheous said:

I was never a big fan of the Cleveland, though I acknowledge it was a good CA, I just preferred the Japanese CAs.  I did well in it, but never held my interest.  Now that it is T8, I actually am having pretty decent games and enjoy playing it...weird... and I think it fits in pretty well at T8.  It is a support ship, I try and help another ship out, but stay a bit back... I don't like island camping so will move around quite a bit.  I think it could really benefit from 2 knots of speed, it seems slow for a T8 that supposed to hunt DDs, 32 knots is underwelming when some of the BBs are hitting 30knots........

I play USN light cruisers in open water when it's safe to do so, but they do rely on islands quite a bit. It's perfectly fine to play them in open water as long as you have lots of support and enemy is distracted, but if you're caught out in open water and alone or without support, you'd better hope you can find cover or disappear fast enough.

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3 hours ago, shadowsrmine said:

They just didn't remove enuff of the nerfs  IE  they nerfed her to where she was not OP  at T6  and didn't buff her enufff for  T8  very underwhelming

What he said. 

I didn't get to play in alpha and by the time I got into closed beta Cleveland was either already a T6, or I wasn't able to grind through to it at T8 - didn't it have a lot more range and better muzzle velocity the first time around?

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It benifitted from aft and bft back then, it also had a split citadel wich made it harder to smash in one shot.

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6 hours ago, RipNuN2 said:

She also requires a high skill point commander to shine.

 

Pretty much this, yes. You need both IFHE and CE. And you aren't getting that without at least 14 points. 

 

Sad thing is, this is going to be true for all of the US light cruisers. They're going to be terrible for new players and they're going to be a clubber's delight. 

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I don't enjoy island hugging, but I tried it, since that's what conventional wisdom says to do with this ship.  Cleveland's got a couple of problems with this.  First, it needs more bow armor.  As it is, against tier IX-X CAs and BBs, you might as well be broadside for all the good it does you.  Second, if you poke your nose out to take a shot, hoping to reverse back into cover, you're going to be out there for a long time.  It just takes too long to stop and back up.  It has decent concealment, so you could wait until you actually start moving in reverse before firing a salvo.  But you are likely to miss a lot of shots that way.  If you wanted to give up the steering gears mod, you could take propulsion mod 2.  It doesn't work when reversing, but I suppose you could do your popping out in reverse, and then accelerate forward back into cover.  However, it only applies to the first 6 knots of speed from a dead stop.  I don't know if that's enough.  I've never taken that module on any ships, since it usually means giving up something I want more.  Has anyone tried it?

Edited by zubalkabir
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Cleve at Tier 8 is SIMPLY cannon fodder to anyone.  I just played 5 games with it, and EVERY TIME, I was primaried.  I was even primaried by a WHOLE TEAM.  Dev's are retarded for doing this.  15 games, and I was able to finally 1 time, get a positive money outcome, simply because I actually lived long enough to kill 1 enemy ship.

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9 hours ago, zubalkabir said:

I don't enjoy island hugging, but I tried it, since that's what conventional wisdom says to do with this ship.  Cleveland's got a couple of problems with this.  First, it needs more bow armor.  As it is, against tier IX-X CAs and BBs, you might as well be broadside for all the good it does you.  Second, if you poke your nose out to take a shot, hoping to reverse back into cover, you're going to be out there for a long time.  It just takes too long to stop and back up.  It has decent concealment, so you could wait until you actually start moving in reverse before firing a salvo.  But you are likely to miss a lot of shots that way.  If you wanted to give up the steering gears mod, you could take propulsion mod 2.  It doesn't work when reversing, but I suppose you could do your popping out in reverse, and then accelerate forward back into cover.  However, it only applies to the first 6 knots of speed from a dead stop.  I don't know if that's enough.  I've never taken that module on any ships, since it usually means giving up something I want more.  Has anyone tried it?

You want to use island as concealment cover, not just a cover to protect your citadel.

If you poke out like you do with Des Moines, you will still eat damage which you can't heal. Even HE salvo can easily eat a large chunk from your low HP pool.

Cleveland and probably the rest of USN CLs are all about shooting w/o being detected at all. Propulsion mod will definitely help this style. You stay a bit distance from island so you can shoot over it. If you suddenly gets detected, you just speed up and hug into the island.

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Most people are making the mistake of comparing the Cleveland to its former self. Previous posts have mentioned that playing it like the old Cleveland will get you killed, and I totally agree with that. I have had success playing it like the old New Orleans at tier 8. In my opinion, the new cleveland is just as good, if not better than the New Orleans was at tier 8. It trades the devastating AP of the heavy cruisers for significantly improved HE dpm. What I enjoyed most about the old New Orleans was being able to pop radar once detected and kill the dd before they ever figured out what was happening. The Cleveland is even more deadly in this capacity. The key to being successfull in this ship is to hug islands or sit in freindly smoke during the initial phase of the battle and preserve your hitpoints. Once the enemy is distracted, you can move out and hunt down the remaining dds. Use your fantastic agility and concealment to evade enemy battleships, and NEVER start shooting a bb unless you have cover or other allies diverting their attention.

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Also...a heal would help Cleve a lot and should be standard for all CAs, but especially T7 and up... I keep trying to hit "U" and its not there lol.  Took WG entirely too long to fix the PE with a heal, but seriously all CAs should have heal...

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The new Cleveland does not impress me at all.  I view them just as I view the Atlanta:  Not a threat.  I had a game earlier where I was kiting a Cleveland with my New Orleans.  He struggled to hit me.  From 10km.  I sank him with ease, even though he started off with more health than I had left.  They are like dinner that serves itself.

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5 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

The new Cleveland does not impress me at all.  I view them just as I view the Atlanta:  Not a threat.  I had a game earlier where I was kiting a Cleveland with my New Orleans.  He struggled to hit me.  From 10km.  I sank him with ease, even though he started off with more health than I had left.  They are like dinner that serves itself.

That probably had more to do with the player captaining the ship than whether or not the Cleveland is a good tier 8 light cruiser. She is not for everybody.

I've found her to be quite good if used properly and if one knows how to shoot those fire hose 152 mm guns.

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Ive gone toe to toe with numerous Clevelands with my New Orleans, and beaten them every time.  It's just not a threat unless your enemy is brainless.

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8 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Ive gone toe to toe with numerous Clevelands with my New Orleans, and beaten them every time.  It's just not a threat unless your enemy is brainless.

I respectfully disagree that the Cleveland is not a threat to a New Orleans or any tier 7 cruiser. You get two players of equal skill level and each with the same point commander, and both ships fully upgraded, the Cleveland will give a New Orleans a run for her money. While the Cleveland will not have the NOLA's alpha strike potential, she will out DPM her.

You are a more experienced player than me and likely also a better player by your stats... I'm a fairly average and casual WoWs player; so, I would probably have a difficult time defeating you in a one-on-one matchup, and that is likely the case of most of the Cleveland players you have encountered so far.

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So far I'm liking the new Cleveland. I moved my old commander over with IFHE. She is workable for me without CE. I don't have the hull upgrade yet, only the range.

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9 hours ago, daVinci761st said:

I respectfully disagree that the Cleveland is not a threat to a New Orleans or any tier 7 cruiser. You get two players of equal skill level and each with the same point commander, and both ships fully upgraded, the Cleveland will give a New Orleans a run for her money. While the Cleveland will not have the NOLA's alpha strike potential, she will out DPM her.

You are a more experienced player than me and likely also a better player by your stats... I'm a fairly average and casual WoWs player; so, I would probably have a difficult time defeating you in a one-on-one matchup, and that is likely the case of most of the Cleveland players you have encountered so far.

The problem is, that the shell velocity of the Cleveland is low to the point that her shells are easy to dodge.  A Cleveland player is going to have to out-play me in order to kill me, because I can WASD around his shells.  Short of predicting my dodges and pre-adjusting his shots and counting on me to dodge INTO them, there's very little he can do.  On paper, yes Cleveland has the DPM to completely dismantle a New Orleans.  Getting those shells to land and take advantage of that DPM is the major issue. 

We're both the same speed, so he's going to struggle to close the range to such that I can no longer dodge his shots.  meanwhile, my shots are likely hitting because the faster shells are simply easier to land.  if I actually close the range on a Cleveland, well, then I deserve the vicious butt kicking that I will get.  In reality though, I am going to sit around 13-14k dance around his shots and pick him apart.  His best bet is to go dark and disengage and get the heck away from me...which I can do nothing about because of his superior stealth.  That's a net win though for me, because now I can keep him from places he may want to go.

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