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enderland07

Unpopular opinion: there are always going to be overpowered ships as long as the playerbase has such varying skill... unless WG is very careful

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DISCLAIMER: this will probably be controversial:Smile_popcorn:

As Wargaming adds new ships, there are a few things they have to do in order to make the game successful. Namely:

  1. Ships must be interesting/enjoyable to play compared to existing ships
  2. Ships must not suck compared to existing ships

Wargaming, other than a few recent ships (asashio/GZ...) in my opinion actually does a surprisingly ok job with this overall. However, in order to keep 1/2 working for the majority of players, they have to slightly powercreep ships. Underpowered and underperforming ships get massive negative hype - and rightly so. Who wants to grind a new line that is inferior to existing ones? Or as no real advantage in any way?

The problem becomes that if WG makes a new line competitive or interesting for the average player it means that the top percentage of players are going to capitalize on that and punish the average (or below average players). Everyone can name some new ships that are too strong when in the hands of good players... but that are not really "overperforming" too much because most people cannot actually make them work.

So, what can WG do?

A few things. First, recognize that sidegrade types of upgrades are the more meaningful way to accomplish both (1) and (2) above. The Legendary modules have a lot of potential here. Having ships play differently - not just making them better - adds a lot of variety to the game. Course, some of these aren't sidegrades but nerfs or straight upgrades... but maybe this will get fixed??

Second, understand what game mechanics contribute to the skill gaps. Radar is a good example. Radar amplifies the skill gap. So... stop giving every damn ship radar. Even the thought to give the Groz radar seems misguided on this front. Sure, WG changed their mind, but it's an example of completely missing the skill imbalance radar amplifies.

Third, make the ingame battle experience encourage and coach players in the "basics." Things like angling. Torp ranges. AP vs HE. None of these are taught in game at all.  Make missions that encourage these activities - for angling, make a mission to bounce X shells. Include text or a link about how angling helps this. If a player consistently fires torps at ships out of range, have a popup remind them "hey, did you know you can check your torpedo range and your target is 5km further than your range?" or something.

And last, and perhaps obviously (?),  stop making ships that are abusable in the hands of good players. While a decent number of premiums are ok, you still have ships like the GZ or Asashio or the proposed Stalingrad which are completely stupid.  If the Stalingrad gets released in its current AP form, triple Stalingrad divisions will be pure cancer for the game in a way that will make people miss the 20km shima torp cancer of years past.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

If the Stalingrad gets released in its current AP form, triple Stalingrad divisions will be pure cancer for the game in a way that will make people miss the 20km shima torp cancer of years past.

And the Asashio will be powerless to stop it.

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1 minute ago, Ensign_Cthulhu said:

And the Asashio will be powerless to stop it.

balance comrade!

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Just now, Canadatron said:

What is most troubling is that you think Asashio is OP.

Where?

I called it stupid, not OP.

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19 minutes ago, Canadatron said:

What is most troubling is that you think Asashio is OP.

It's not Op but if used right it can come close to being Op

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39 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Third, make the ingame battle experience encourage and coach players in the "basics." Things like angling. Torp ranges. AP vs HE. None of these are taught in game at all.  Make missions that encourage these activities - for angling, make a mission to bounce X shells. Include text or a link about how angling helps this. If a player consistently fires torps at ships out of range, have a popup remind them "hey, did you know you can check your torpedo range and your target is 5km further than your range?" or something.

The game is really lacking, compared to others, in introducing the game mechanics in a controlled manner. Maybe a variation of what you suggested, as a beginner/training scenario that challenges beginners in the different game mechanics? Something more controlled than Coop.

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42 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

 

And last, and perhaps obviously (?),  stop making ships that are abusable in the hands of good players.

 

TLDR...but this line grabbed my attention....

 

  So your bottom line is that "good players" are OP.   The ships as a whole are never the problem when it comes down to it...it is always the player that makes a meh ship good, a good ship great, and a excellent ship OUTSTANDING.  

vr,

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46 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Where?

I called it stupid, not OP.

This is key.  Something doesn't have to be OP to be stupid.

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32 minutes ago, KURT_WOLFF said:

It's not Op but if used right it can come close to being Op

Averaged over 101k a game in it with a win rate over 73 percent.  Nothing op about this ship at all... lmbo.

Edited by Kongo_Pride
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58 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Where?

I called it stupid, not OP.


The following two statement, gives the implications that you are claiming Asashio is overpowered, which is the most common way for a ship to be abused... Ships that are overpowered, is indeed stupid. Important sections are bolded.
 

1 hour ago, enderland07 said:

And last, and perhaps obviously (?),  stop making ships that are abusable in the hands of good players. While a decent number of premiums are ok, you still have ships like the GZ or Asashio or the proposed Stalingrad which are completely stupid.

 

 

Tad more careful with sentence placement, I believe would prevent future confusion.

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WG can already account for skill floor/ceiling issues.

When the Conqueror was released and it was the 'end of the world' WG did release some statistics when they justified nerfing it.

For instance they showed that the same players who could get a 55% WR in Yamato would get 54% in Conqueror, 53% Montana players would get 53% in Conqueror etc. (Across the board Conq usually generated lower WR than equivalent BB, but damage and survivability were too great so... whatever).

By looking at those values, which they have access to and we don't, WG can try to tune ship floor/ceilings.

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Problem is on paper you might have a ship that some consider OP because on paper it might be let’s  say 5% better than most ships. However a good player can take a mediocre ship or perceived as mediocre and be 100% improvement over the other ship just because the player is experienced and knows how to make best possible use of their ship.

So really difficult to say if a ship is truly overpowered, although some ships do have more favorable characteristics by default, but still requires skill to use. Good example of such a ship is the Graf Spee which is one of my favorite ships, but if you ask enough people about her you will find she is controversial ship. Some say the ship is weak garabage since it’s a BB/ CA hybrid that can’t entirely fill the role of either class. Other people say she is overpowered and wonderful ship because she has the powers of BB/ CA combined so she can hit harder than other cruisers, is a little hardier than other cruisers, and her Torps are better than mid tier German CAs or any German BB get thanks to 8km Torp range and great firing angles. The ship has it’s strong points as well as it's flaws, depending on the user it can be incredibly weak or incredibly strong

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If your constantly uptierd in your ship fighting ships 2 tiers higher , a that’s an OP ship

my first premium ship I bought V Murmansk I battle ships 2 tiers higher about 90% of the time

while grinding the German Cruiser line am uptiered about 25% of the time

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55 minutes ago, mofton said:

WG can already account for skill floor/ceiling issues.

When the Conqueror was released and it was the 'end of the world' WG did release some statistics when they justified nerfing it.

For instance they showed that the same players who could get a 55% WR in Yamato would get 54% in Conqueror, 53% Montana players would get 53% in Conqueror etc. (Across the board Conq usually generated lower WR than equivalent BB, but damage and survivability were too great so... whatever).

By looking at those values, which they have access to and we don't, WG can try to tune ship floor/ceilings.

 

Are there many actual instances of this happening?

I *think* the recent shima buff was a result of this. But I cannot think of any others, though I guess technically some of WGs balancing decisions could be guided by this.

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2 hours ago, enderland07 said:

Second, understand what game mechanics contribute to the skill gaps. Radar is a good example. Radar amplifies the skill gap. So... stop giving every damn ship radar.

This rule is too general. It amounts to avoiding any mechanic that rewards smart use, which is pretty much everything. You couldn't even stick an odd piece of thick plating on a ship, because it would "amplify the skill gap" between players that know how to make use of it and players who don't.

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I don't mind an overpowered ship or too, at this point we already have some that aren't just going to leave anyway.. *cough* Belfast *cough*

What I do mind, however, are ships that are so situational that at one point they are overpowered, ruining the games of everyone, and at other times completely useless, once again ruining others experience of the game.
Imho Asashio is the prime example of this, and GZ/CVs to a lesser extent, it completely annihilates BBs with the only counterplay available is hope you can dodge. While any other ship just walks all over her, ships this extreme in all cases are not fun nor healthy for the game and should be avoided in every possible case available.

While overpowered ships can be said to be similar, I think that cases such as Asashio are far far worse then an overpowered ship. As although one side sees it as a completely broken unhealthy existence, the ship itself still has the over side saying its balanced, which somehow gives these extreme specialist ships a justification of being ingame, when arguable they don't belong anymore then something like Nikolai does.

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The game introduces elements of account management very well; it shouldn’t be too hard to implement staggered introductions to tactics too. I think a lot of veterans take for granted that it took THEM a while to learn the ropes as well. We as a player base need to keep mentoring and positively supporting each other!

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You can't balance a game too heavily to offset unicums. Then it becomes too hard for average players that make up the vast majority of any game that is profitable.

Ships are IMO balanced very well overall. There are some outliers but no ship is invulnerable and quality play can even make trash ships viable.

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New ships added make old ships obsolete. The MM places them together. 

People say adapt and overcome.

I can see the OP's point.

But in reality it does come down to Player skill not the ship.

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On 6/11/2018 at 7:04 PM, CLUCH_CARGO said:

New ships added make old ships obsolete. The MM places them together. 

People say adapt and overcome.

I can see the OP's point.

But in reality it does come down to Player skill not the ship.

Older lines in the game does not mean something is obsolete, now a ship or tank fir that matter may not be able to run as wild as it originally did if a good counter ship gets added. But that does not mean the old ship still can’t be good.

For example Yamato is one of original tier X ships right? Has it really lost any of its power when I can still fire 26km out if needed and punch right through enemy BB armor? ( For the record my Yamato fights a lot closer ranges than 26km lol more like 16km or closer...)

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3 minutes ago, Admiral_Thrawn_1 said:

Older lines in the game does not mean something is obsolete, now a ship or tank fir that matter may not be able to run as wild as it originally did if a good counter ship gets added. But that does not mean the old ship still can’t be good.

For example Yamato is one of original tier X ships right? Has it really lost any of its power when I can still fire 26km out if needed and punch right through enemy BB armor? ( For the record my Yamato fights a lot closer ranges than 26km lol more like 16km or closer...)

I was referring to POWER CREEP just didn't say it I assumed My Bad

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