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Lensar

Playing DDs in high tier matches with Radar and CVs

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Can we force all the Wargaming devs to play DDs in T10 matches with 4-5 radar ships per side AND CVs?

 

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I believe there is a change to tier 10 Dds in the works that is reducing their armor so that nothing will penetrate a tier 10 dd. All overpens unless you use he

Edited by _1204_
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Other DDs bother me more than radar or planes. More radar and planes means fewer enemy DDs. Thus it is a buff.

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20 minutes ago, Elysion said:

Other DDs bother me more than radar or planes. More radar and planes means fewer enemy DDs.

Wow. Do you have trouble killing other DDs? I'm usually able to manhandle them without issue.

But when you have to be out on the flanks to avoid radar, it's easy for a CV to park planes over you, and that's pretty much your match. Even if you avoid being sunk, you certainly won't be in any position to carry.

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5 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Wow. Do you have trouble killing other DDs? I'm usually able to manhandle them without issue.

But when you have to be out on the flanks to avoid radar, it's easy for a CV to park planes over you, and that's pretty much your match. Even if you avoid being sunk, you certainly won't be in any position to carry.

Well i just play shima, shima dislikes other DDs

You dont have to avoid radar, you can be permaspotted and still quite useful if you are accounting for the fact. Which is why that whole other DD thing is the problem, you can anticipate cruisers, you can anticipate planes. You can still avoid a bad situation by just not being anywhere being spotted is actually that big a deal. But you bump into an enemy DD in the wrong place at the wrong time? It can be bad news. A DD can be quite useful just sitting there behind hard cover, spotted, preventing a push through a narrow area, because people are afraid. In fact i intentionally make my presence known sometimes by shooting. The most powerful use of shima guns :^) Shoot one volley, and you have just launched 15 phantom torpedoes the enemy has to dodge.

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28 minutes ago, Elysion said:

Well i just play shima, shima dislikes other DDs

I play a shima, as well. I'm not saying I out knife fight all the other DDs; tho sometimes I do. Most of the time I just bait them into getting shot by my team.

28 minutes ago, Elysion said:

You dont have to avoid radar, you can be permaspotted and still quite useful if you are accounting for the fact. Which is why that whole other DD thing is the problem, you can anticipate cruisers, you can anticipate planes. You can still avoid a bad situation by just not being anywhere being spotted is actually that big a deal. But you bump into an enemy DD in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Sure, I get it. But if I want to be permaspotted all game, I'll play something other than DD. I avoid any situation where radar or another DD can surprise me, or at least, if they do appear I can drop detection fairly easily. Seems to be the best way to carry in randoms, at least these days.

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1 hour ago, _1204_ said:

I believe there is a change to tier 10 Dds in the works that is reducing their armor so that nothing will penetrate a tier 10 dd. All overpens unless you use he

There is a change in the works for CV too :P

 

It's only been 2 years, so just be patient....er

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They'd probably state that's on MM. easily Plus, radar becomes a non-issue when get cursed with potatoes in those ships.

Whether it means changes to radar CRs is their call. With the CV rework ongoing and the fact the new radar ships only just got started, think they'll wait until 2-week mark or maybe longer before considering if it's balanced. Atm, it merely seems certain that when too much of something is in the match, everything gets thrown off. Haven't forgotten the Derpitz days, or how many KMS BBs flooded the queue, or PADDs.

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5 minutes ago, Reymu said:

They'd probably state that's on MM. easily Plus, radar becomes a non-issue when get cursed with potatoes in those ships.

Whether it means changes to radar CRs is their call. With the CV rework ongoing and the fact the new radar ships only just got started, think they'll wait until 2-week mark or maybe longer before considering if it's balanced. Atm, it merely seems certain that when too much of something is in the match, everything gets thrown off. Haven't forgotten the Derpitz days, or how many KMS BBs flooded the queue, or PADDs.

Not going to matter, and it won't change.

They have already come out and openly lied, and pretty much admitted they are ignoring the data. They as in WG.

Remember the Q&A where they claimed that even a disproportionate amount of radar on one team is not effecting win chances?.... yet before that we had multiple members of the community pre-refute that with completely opposite conclusions and included how they got that result.

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18 minutes ago, Lensar said:

 But if I want to be permaspotted all game, I'll play something other than DD.

There is still utility inherent to DDs. Basically just 'having a dd alive at the end' has won plenty of games where another ship wouldnt do. Maybe im putting too much importance on it but i think that little colored triangle is, all on its own just sitting there in the minimap, quite useful. Even for your own team, seeing you there. Seeing all your DDs die is bad for morale, having an alive DD makes people feel like things must be going ok. There is also stuff like drawing enemy fire on purpose when they really should be shooting at a team mate instead, people see DD and want to click on it. DD just feels more dynamic, even with out stealth. Even better with a carrier permaspotting you! You can dance around at max range dodging fire, making enemy waste shot, if they wisen up and just ignore you? Shoot them back, one turet at a time. You dont have to do damage, just hit, hit, hit, hit, bully them. The sound, the camera shake, the absolute annoyance. If you are off at a different angle to them as well they have to keep watching for torps, even if theres a plane to spot them they have to look on the other side of where they want to look constantly. The insecurity, the constriction...

Its not so much what youd rather be doing, you cant turn off DDs, its do you trust the person who would be playing the DD instead of you?

There was a time when CVs could have completely fighterless loadouts. You could be full strike, nothing but bombers and torpedo bombers. At the time there were also pure fighter loadouts (they often had one token dive bomber, which was useless at the time for actually doing damage apart from setting fires, and you only had one so it wasnt that practical). When you were a strike CV and the enemy was a fighter CV, it was quite literally possible for them to keep your planes basically spawncamped. You just couldnt send them anywhere, their fighters would circle you just outside your carriers AA and go after anything that left.

What was the solution? Escort your planes, with your carrer, to an enemy ship :^) If the enemy carrier is keeping you shut down by committing all its fighters to stay right next to you, then its not doing anything for the team but countering you. Its doing no damage, its doing no spotting, its just countering you. So all you have to do is anything to foil their plans, to make their entire purpose useless. So you use hard cover and sneak your big fat carrier up a channel and tempt some enemy ship to go for the easy kill. You then delete them and die to their teams focus fire knowing you won. IT was the most fun carrier balance ever and it really sucks WG changed it because id full strike CV even today if i had the option.

Likewise, if you are a DD and the entire enemy team is set up to counter you, then its a huge relief! You have no responsibility, it is absolutely impossible for you to do anything conventional. But you know what? Thats some of their resources, some of their capability, put in to making you useless! This means if you manage to do anything useful at all, you have won! So you are now free, you can be creative and experiment and have license to be unconventional. Another kind of ship? Its got a counterpart on the other team, it must slog through convention.

Its the same, to a lesser extent, when you are simply bottom tier in a match, your conventional weight is less so you have less to carry. You are no longer obligated to participate in the fort-holding-down of hitpoints and damage and positional trades, you are the free agent, able to go out and actually find something that can swing the game. This is why t8 is my favorite tier in general in WG games.

If the game meta has countered DDs then their DDs are also countered! Which means you are free to discover new things to do. Its exciting! I hope everyone gets radar and carriers gain popularity again.

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Radar is the noob killer. The more radar, the better a player you need to be to not get roflstomped by it.

Right now, you need to be really good at destroyers to not have a bad time with radars.

While this doesn't really affect my WR since I am really good at destroyers in the higher tiers (62% WR in my last ~300 dd games averaging tier 8.7 - amusingly my solo WR in that time for dds is 1% higher than overall?), it is:

  • Annoying/less fun
  • A deathtrap to non-unicum destroyer players
    • This leads to lopsided matches

Most of my recent tier X destroyer games go something like "spot for 50-100k damage, do zero damage, then after a few ships die start cleaning up" - I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not for the game. It's certainly good for my winrate but nearly all other dd players don't do this, resulting in fast deaths.

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19 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

Remember the Q&A where they claimed that even a disproportionate amount of radar on one team is not effecting win chances?.... yet before that we had multiple members of the community pre-refute that with completely opposite conclusions and included how they got that result.

How many members are "multiple"? Let‘s assume the number of people who did actual data gathering, so not just posting three screenshots but actual tracking of a decent sample size, and then using those to calculate the chance of Radar affecting the outcome of the battle.

I‘d guess it‘s five people who would do that properly, if you think it‘s more you can surely provide proof by linking their work.

So we have five players gathering data, how does that relate to the thousands of players that WG can track? I think WG has more accurate numbers, by far.

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1 hour ago, Elysion said:

Other DDs bother me more than radar or planes. More radar and planes means fewer enemy DDs. Thus it is a buff.

I prefer hunting DD's , less DD's = less fun. So its a buff in your opinion due to the way you play the game, not because its an actual buff. 

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42 minutes ago, enderland07 said:

Radar is the noob killer. The more radar, the better a player you need to be to not get roflstomped by it.

Right now, you need to be really good at destroyers to not have a bad time with radars.

While this doesn't really affect my WR since I am really good at destroyers in the higher tiers (62% WR in my last ~300 dd games averaging tier 8.7 - amusingly my solo WR in that time for dds is 1% higher than overall?), it is:

  • Annoying/less fun
  • A deathtrap to non-unicum destroyer players
    • This leads to lopsided matches

Most of my recent tier X destroyer games go something like "spot for 50-100k damage, do zero damage, then after a few ships die start cleaning up" - I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not for the game. It's certainly good for my winrate but nearly all other dd players don't do this, resulting in fast deaths.

Actually on the contrary, Radar is the *noob* weapon.  It is a hard counter. It is skill void.
Even with lots of skill and making the correct choices, unless you have super human psychic future prediction, there will also be unspotted radar ships that ruin your day. Radar is just a button press that has no avoidance measure, no counter.

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20 minutes ago, Cobraclutch said:

I prefer hunting DD's , less DD's = less fun. So its a buff in your opinion due to the way you play the game, not because its an actual buff. 

We all just have to stop playing Cap-centric Destroyers and huck torps from 12+km out now. That'll show em.

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1 minute ago, Canadatron said:

We all just have to stop playing Cap-centric Destroyers and huck torps from 12+km out now. That'll show em.

So then if Radar is here to stay, lets buff the range and velocity of all DD torps.

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Gave up playing 8's and 9's just not any fun anymore, more like work.  . 

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6 minutes ago, zarth12 said:

So then if Radar is here to stay, lets buff the range and velocity of all DD torps.

Too many players would go into shock and die. Not on the table, sadly. Notice that the "whipping post" classes also -conveniently- are the 2 least played in game? Coincidence? Doubtful.

 

Last week 14k accounts logged games in BB, 18k in Cruisers... while 7k played DD and 700 had a match in CV.

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They'd just play Tashkent and Khabarovsk and claim no difference.

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I suggest a simple thought experiment.  Picture two teams with a lot of radar on each side.  One of them has a couple of Tashkents and the other has a Fletcher and a Yugumo.  Assume that everyone on each team basically knows what they're doing without any super-unicum players to bork the odds.  Which team do you expect to win?  Most people would say the team with traditional DDs has an advantage.  Without looking at server statistics, I'd certainly bet on that outcome.  

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2 hours ago, zarth12 said:

Remember the Q&A where they claimed that even a disproportionate amount of radar on one team is not effecting win chances?


IMO, the issue is they approach statistics, MM, and balancing the game, like a 5th or 6th grader who just learned the concept of average. 

Sure radar doesn't effect the averages when you are looking at thousands, 10s of thousands, or even 100s of thousands of battles, but that doesn't mean individual matches can't be horribly lopsided and absolutely suck. At some point maybe they will have someone who actually knows a thing or two about math, statistics, and actuarial science show them how utter crap their system is.

The game has way to many lopsided battles, Flambass just posted a perfect example of how crap the mm can be.

 

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2 hours ago, zarth12 said:

Actually on the contrary, Radar is the *noob* weapon.  It is a hard counter. It is skill void.
Even with lots of skill and making the correct choices, unless you have super human psychic future prediction, there will also be unspotted radar ships that ruin your day. Radar is just a button press that has no avoidance measure, no counter.

You've never been in a game and get radar-spotted and not a shot falls near you? I have been in games where I have been radar spotted three different times, for what seems forever each time, and come out with less that 200K potential damage. They cannot hit what they aren't in position to shoot at. 

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2 hours ago, zarth12 said:

Actually on the contrary, Radar is the *noob* weapon.  It is a hard counter. It is skill void.
Even with lots of skill and making the correct choices, unless you have super human psychic future prediction, there will also be unspotted radar ships that ruin your day. Radar is just a button press that has no avoidance measure, no counter.

Really?

The number of these noobs I see think that because they are a radar CA they can sail in the open is... much higher than those that effectively use it.

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