Jump to content
You need to play a total of 5 battles to post in this section.
Destroyer_KuroshioKai

Mitigating damage in DDs, specifically looking at IJN DDs

21 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles

Today's lesson is about damage mitigation in IJN DDs, though this discussion effects DDs of all Nations as well.  I just feel the IJN DDs benefit the most from it.

IJN DD Module Discussion

The video goes in depth into how modules can absorb incoming shells when they hit things like your turrets, torpedo tubes and most beneficial to DDs  their small caliber AA guns.  The video gets into the concept of understanding which angles DDs are safest to minimize the damage they receive by looking at the surface of the ship that is subject to damage.  Below are screenshots taken of the fight showing the modules saving my ship:

shot-18_04.23_18_57.03-0198.thumb.jpg.05437e548996b5e7e4ef916beaa95277.jpg

shot-18_04.23_18_57.25-0124.thumb.jpg.ae4bc634f9b5693e88895caf9528963c.jpg

shot-18_04.23_18_57.52-0154.thumb.jpg.c8c27bd7fe06f2a31788eb5e30b39bc9.jpg

Further when we angle our ship the vast majority of the damage received will be on the end of the ship closest to the enemy.  This enables us to take advantage of a game mechanic called saturation.  Basically each section of the ship holds some of the ships total HP.  Once you cross certain thresholds damage inflicted repeatedly to the same area begins to take reduced damage.  You can tell a section of the ship is saturated when it starts to turn a black color.  Like below, the screen shot after the engagement with the Gearing.

shot-18_04.23_19_00.03-0330.thumb.jpg.5d24de33f5643a12b22cd7eb9a4a8e7b.jpg

Warships Wiki Damage Saturation

The end caps tell the tale.  My dodging did throw off a lot of his shots.  He landed 15 shells for only 4475 or 299 HP on average per hit instead of the potential 594 HP that the guns were capable of inflicting.  To sum the engagement up by angling to reduce the area the Gearing was able to damage, and by allowing my stern to take the brunt of the damage so it would saturate I reduced the damage I received by roughly 50%.

This reduction of damage, combined with my own aim allowed me to inflict roughly 185% of the damage I received in a Shimakaze under 5km from a Gearing.

 

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai
  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,088
[SYN]
Members
14,618 posts
10,927 battles

of course, this also has the potential of flat out deleting your modules.

is much fun running around without a torp launcher or two

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Testers
310 posts
1,846 battles

For me it does not matter.  If I am in an IJN DD and being shot at, them I'm going the other direction and will be hit in the stern. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
18 minutes ago, MrDeaf said:

of course, this also has the potential of flat out deleting your modules.

is much fun running around without a torp launcher or two

Better for your team to lose a turret or a torp tube and still be alive or with more HP...

There is a reason for protecting your main battery and torps with MBM1 and the captain skill PM.  Only Gearing and Yue Yang get the rear torp tube destroyed on a frequent basis.  I suspect there is a bug with them, but am compiling evidence to take to WG at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,405
[GWG]
[GWG]
Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters
16,231 posts
9,570 battles

The best way to mitigate damage in a DD is to not get hit. :Smile_hiding:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
952
[SBS]
Members
2,794 posts
2,375 battles

I've been watching your videos, this is another good one.  Its a shame more people aren't watching because DD play is least intuitive of the main ships types to pick up.  If you keep making these videos, I'll keep watching them.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
18 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

I've been watching your videos, this is another good one.  Its a shame more people aren't watching because DD play is least intuitive of the main ships types to pick up.  If you keep making these videos, I'll keep watching them.  

I'm trying.

This is basically a crash course of everything I have dug up in little viewed content, gleaned from thousands of replays, or theory crafted myself and tested.

The hurdle is time mostly.  I mean my youtube isnt even two weeks old right now, but things like Reddit doesnt help yet either.  My account and videos dont have have minimum number of likes etc to get past the auto mod.  Cant get past auto mod I cant get to a wider viewership.  Kind of a catch 22.

I really would like to improve the general level of DD play in the game, and really encourage team work by showing it, rather than just [edited] about it hoping it falls in my lap.

Would their be any interest in me streaming occasionally?  It's not evident on the videos I have posted by I have two small kids that love to help play the game.  They can be noisy, and most may find that off putting.  It would be a way for guys to watch and ask questions in real near time.

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,088
[SYN]
Members
14,618 posts
10,927 battles

you should just use twitch, tube blows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
1 hour ago, MrDeaf said:

you should just use twitch, tube blows.

I dont make anything off this, its more of a public service.  The amount of team play has taken a nose dive in the last year from what I have seen.  I'm just not sure which medium would work best for this.

I could easily see offering replay analysis like I do for clan members in the future, as well as these sorts of discussions.  I'm just not sure which more players are comfortable with using.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
993
[DUDE_]
Members
3,072 posts
13,108 battles
2 hours ago, BrushWolf said:

The best way to mitigate damage in a DD is to not get hit. :Smile_hiding:

Having a Musashi and a Prinz 4k away also helps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,197 posts
7,298 battles
2 hours ago, MrDeaf said:

you should just use twitch, tube blows.

yea, YT is really crappy now a days.   you can Stream on twitch, then export it to YT.     there are also highlights and clips which makes twitch a lot nicer to use.

 

49 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

I dont make anything off this, its more of a public service.  The amount of team play has taken a nose dive in the last year from what I have seen.  I'm just not sure which medium would work best for this.

I could easily see offering replay analysis like I do for clan members in the future, as well as these sorts of discussions.  I'm just not sure which more players are comfortable with using.

team play is just not rewarded enough or in some modes even encouraged.    They only recently made the UI better by showing damage upon your spotting, spotting ribbon,  and potential damage.  Smoking teammates in randoms isn't really worth it anymore.  they will probably be spotted anyways, or sail right though the smoke. 

 

of course there is always the missions that WG make.  Some are good, others encourage some really meh gameplay.  especially when they are centered around one type of ship.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
52 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

yea, YT is really crappy now a days.   you can Stream on twitch, then export it to YT.     there are also highlights and clips which makes twitch a lot nicer to use.

 

team play is just not rewarded enough or in some modes even encouraged.    They only recently made the UI better by showing damage upon your spotting, spotting ribbon,  and potential damage.  Smoking teammates in randoms isn't really worth it anymore.  they will probably be spotted anyways, or sail right though the smoke. 

 

of course there is always the missions that WG make.  Some are good, others encourage some really meh gameplay.  especially when they are centered around one type of ship.

The real issue is DDs cant math and are too lazy to memorize the smoke detection ranges for CAs. 

Smoke is a good play.  A good smoke can turn the tide of battle.  Its up to the DD to know how to lay it for the intended ship to use it though. 

Edited by Destroyer_KuroshioKai

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,948
[INTEL]
Members
8,808 posts
26,251 battles
21 hours ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Better for your team to lose a turret or a torp tube and still be alive or with more HP...

There is a reason for protecting your main battery and torps with MBM1 and the captain skill PM.  Only Gearing and Yue Yang get the rear torp tube destroyed on a frequent basis.  I suspect there is a bug with them, but am compiling evidence to take to WG at the moment.

That explains a lot. Thanks. I noticed that in PTS and in Space Battles w/Gearing. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
952
[SBS]
Members
2,794 posts
2,375 battles
46 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

yea, YT is really crappy now a days.   you can Stream on twitch, then export it to YT.     there are also highlights and clips which makes twitch a lot nicer to use.

If your goal is to teach game play, edited videos are the way to go (Youtube).  If you're trying to gain a loyal following that will support your work financially then the interaction of Twitch is a better platform.  Personally, I'll take edited videos with thought out commentary over streaming any day when it comes to learning/teaching game play.  Streaming is live so you never exactly what kind of content you're going to get.  I don't have time for that.  I want to look for videos that are what I want to watch or learn.

@Destroyer_KuroshioKai 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,197 posts
7,298 battles
1 minute ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

The real issue is DDs cant math and are too lazy to memorize the smoke detection ranges for CAs. 

Smoke is a good play.  A good smoke can turn the tide of battle.  Its up to the DD to know how to lay it for the intended ship to use it though. 

Its not just 1 or 2 numbers to remember though.   Its not like all 203mm guns have the same detection in smoke.  Each ship(not just CAs) can have its own smoke firing penalty.  There is no way your average person is going to know all of those.  not to mention all of the other numbers.

 

at this point, you are trying to remember concealment for all the ships you will face, their firing range, their radar/hydro range, AA range, smoke duration, and smoke penalties.  I may be forgetting some, but you get the point.  Saying they are just lazy is disingenuous.  In clan battles or tourneys, you can ask in teamspeak about the range, if you need to know.  Though those are the same players who tend to be more experienced, do trainings, etc.  they go the extra mile.  Plus from the competitive stuff i have watched, smoke firing penalty is not as much of an issue, as people sit far enough back sniping from the smoke that is really never an issue.   competitive only had to worry about tier 8 and 10 ships from what i seen.(maybe this will change)   randoms are a different story, where the combat tends to end up a lot closer so proxy spotting those in smoke is easier.   Add in more radar, and being closer to the enemy makes using radar easier, smoking teammates is not as good as it once was.  plus you have to worry about all the ships in the MM spread.

 

  I still smoke up teammates, but i am way more hesitant now that i use to be. 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
17 minutes ago, Taichunger said:

That explains a lot. Thanks. I noticed that in PTS and in Space Battles w/Gearing. 

I had a CB against Kracken in my Yue Yang where one Hindenburg HE shell hit the #2 TT breaking it, it repaired and a few minutes later a single Yue Yang HE shell destroyed it.  Gearing seems similarly as fragile which makes sense as the launchers are the same I believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
2 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

Its not just 1 or 2 numbers to remember though.   Its not like all 203mm guns have the same detection in smoke.  Each ship(not just CAs) can have its own smoke firing penalty.  There is no way your average person is going to know all of those.  not to mention all of the other numbers.

 

at this point, you are trying to remember concealment for all the ships you will face, their firing range, their radar/hydro range, AA range, smoke duration, and smoke penalties.  I may be forgetting some, but you get the point.  Saying they are just lazy is disingenuous.  In clan battles or tourneys, you can ask in teamspeak about the range, if you need to know.  Though those are the same players who tend to be more experienced, do trainings, etc.  they go the extra mile.  Plus from the competitive stuff i have watched, smoke firing penalty is not as much of an issue, as people sit far enough back sniping from the smoke that is really never an issue.   competitive only had to worry about tier 8 and 10 ships from what i seen.(maybe this will change)   randoms are a different story, where the combat tends to end up a lot closer so proxy spotting those in smoke is easier.   Add in more radar, and being closer to the enemy makes using radar easier, smoking teammates is not as good as it once was.  plus you have to worry about all the ships in the MM spread.

 

  I still smoke up teammates, but i am way more hesitant now that i use to be. 

It doesnt need to be exact, playing on the safe side tends to be a good thing. 

Grouping ships together by range may help, for example sub 10km CAs would be Mino, Zao, and DM.  It helps BBs and large detection CA like Moskva even as they drop off every 20 seconds, so sustained HE spam is harder do continuously.  They can wait for good shots then drop off if needed.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,197 posts
7,298 battles
4 minutes ago, Slimeball91 said:

If your goal is to teach game play, edited videos are the way to go (Youtube).  If you're trying to gain a loyal following that will support your work financially then the interaction of Twitch is a better platform.  Personally, I'll take edited videos with thought out commentary over streaming any day when it comes to learning/teaching game play.  Streaming is live so you never exactly what kind of content you're going to get.  I don't have time for that.  I want to look for videos that are what I want to watch or learn.

@Destroyer_KuroshioKai 

You can do both.  Seeing what someone does live, and even have them explain what is going on/thoughts at the time it is happening is a good learning tool.  You can always make a highlight of a battle and export it to YT.  You dont have to watch the 3 hours of stream, but the single battle that they thought was interesting.   They could also take the replays of the battle they did, and use it to make a video. 

 

Im too lazy to record and upload, let alone edit videos.  I just stream stuff to YT or twitch, and keep it if i like it.(basically uploaded for me)

 

3 minutes ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

It doesnt need to be exact, playing on the safe side tends to be a good thing. 

Grouping ships together by range may help, for example sub 10km CAs would be Mino, Zao, and DM.  It helps BBs and large detection CA like Moskva even as they drop off every 20 seconds, so sustained HE spam is harder do continuously.  They can wait for good shots then drop off if needed.

 

I would agree that giving room for extra leeway is the better way to go about it.  but something like a mino has what, 5.5km or so  for smoke firing?  DM has about 8km.  My atlanta has 4.6km or so concealment in smoke.  The zao has better smoke firing than the Indy and i believe the old balti.(was 7.4km i think)  moskva has what, 12km or so of smoke firing penalty?    neptune has 1km+ of worse detection in smoke compared to both the edin and mino.  they are all over the place.  and looking at the ship stats of my cleveland and atlanta, skills like CE do NOT change the smoke firing penalty.  i thought they did change that #.  never actually payed attention to that. 

 

I do agree that giving them 10 seconds or so of down time in the smoke, between firing is not a bad thing.  and if they just hold fire, they can turn around, or lay low for a while to avoid taking damage.  of course in randoms, not many people understand this, or they just sail through the smoke oblivious to it.     but the point still stands they are all over the place, and even trying to lump ships together is not really practical.  There is no consistency.  You need a DD to know the ships they are smoking up, to put the smoke in a good spot so they can shoot comfortably without being seen, while still being close enough to be useful, and maybe even use their radar. (and hopefully not in a spot to be radared :P)  Certainly requires more skill to do than it use to and that is not a skill i see many randoms have.  Unicums?  sure. 

 

i guess i should make a point clear.   Smoking up teammates is nice, but that requires the other person or people to know what they are doing.  and that is not something you can rely on in random battles.  compare that to you using the smoke for yourself, making the most out of it, or maybe just using it to get out of a bad spot.  add that on to the requirements to lay a good smoke for somebody, and it starts to become less likely to smoke teammates. 

 

I will still lay smoke for any cruiser who wants to back me up in a cap or if i can bail someone out of a bad spot. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
32 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

You can do both.  Seeing what someone does live, and even have them explain what is going on/thoughts at the time it is happening is a good learning tool.  You can always make a highlight of a battle and export it to YT.  You dont have to watch the 3 hours of stream, but the single battle that they thought was interesting.   They could also take the replays of the battle they did, and use it to make a video. 

 

Im too lazy to record and upload, let alone edit videos.  I just stream stuff to YT or twitch, and keep it if i like it.(basically uploaded for me)

 

I would agree that giving room for extra leeway is the better way to go about it.  but something like a mino has what, 5.5km or so  for smoke firing?  DM has about 8km.  My atlanta has 4.6km or so concealment in smoke.  The zao has better smoke firing than the Indy and i believe the old balti.(was 7.4km i think)  moskva has what, 12km or so of smoke firing penalty?    neptune has 1km+ of worse detection in smoke compared to both the edin and mino.  they are all over the place.  and looking at the ship stats of my cleveland and atlanta, skills like CE do NOT change the smoke firing penalty.  i thought they did change that #.  never actually payed attention to that. 

 

I do agree that giving them 10 seconds or so of down time in the smoke, between firing is not a bad thing.  and if they just hold fire, they can turn around, or lay low for a while to avoid taking damage.  of course in randoms, not many people understand this, or they just sail through the smoke oblivious to it.     but the point still stands they are all over the place, and even trying to lump ships together is not really practical.  There is no consistency.  You need a DD to know the ships they are smoking up, to put the smoke in a good spot so they can shoot comfortably without being seen, while still being close enough to be useful, and maybe even use their radar. (and hopefully not in a spot to be radared :P)  Certainly requires more skill to do than it use to and that is not a skill i see many randoms have.  Unicums?  sure. 

 

i guess i should make a point clear.   Smoking up teammates is nice, but that requires the other person or people to know what they are doing.  and that is not something you can rely on in random battles.  compare that to you using the smoke for yourself, making the most out of it, or maybe just using it to get out of a bad spot.  add that on to the requirements to lay a good smoke for somebody, and it starts to become less likely to smoke teammates. 

 

I will still lay smoke for any cruiser who wants to back me up in a cap or if i can bail someone out of a bad spot. 

Currently I prefer to capture it on OBS live with commentary with what I am thinking of in real time.  Sometimes though noisy dinosaurs make that impossible, so I record it with my mike muted and once I put them to bed I come back and record my comments.

I agree that it can be hard trying to stream and educate at the same time.  I feel like you start playing for the lesson rather than letting the lessons happen naturally.  I'll think about this some more.  I am moving at the end of the month, so it would be a good time to revamp my equipment at that time.  Thanks for the input.

I generally plan my smokes for CAs based on 10km minimum.  The reason is their normal concealment.  I dont want to give a sneaky DD or plane a chance to spot them blowing the ambush.  I know all of the exact distances on the 8's and 10's but that's because its my job to know.  You can get as detailed as you want, or stick with a rule of thumb like 10/13km.  All CA that are under 10km and all CA under 13km.  It keeps it pretty easy.

Take tonight for example.  I will be uploading a game where a clan mate wanted to have some secondary fun on his GK.  So I would smoke him in near a cap on my first smoke.  He'd rain secondaries on anything in range, and when a CA popped up to radar the smoke he'd hammer them.  Kind of amusing to watch all of these US CA players crapthemselves going from easy kill to FML in seconds.  He would then just use his HP to tank the 20 seconds until he dropped off.  Plenty of ways to do it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,197 posts
7,298 battles
1 hour ago, Destroyer_KuroshioKai said:

Currently I prefer to capture it on OBS live with commentary with what I am thinking of in real time.  Sometimes though noisy dinosaurs make that impossible, so I record it with my mike muted and once I put them to bed I come back and record my comments.

I agree that it can be hard trying to stream and educate at the same time.  I feel like you start playing for the lesson rather than letting the lessons happen naturally.  I'll think about this some more.  I am moving at the end of the month, so it would be a good time to revamp my equipment at that time.  Thanks for the input.

I generally plan my smokes for CAs based on 10km minimum.  The reason is their normal concealment.  I dont want to give a sneaky DD or plane a chance to spot them blowing the ambush.  I know all of the exact distances on the 8's and 10's but that's because its my job to know.  You can get as detailed as you want, or stick with a rule of thumb like 10/13km.  All CA that are under 10km and all CA under 13km.  It keeps it pretty easy.

Take tonight for example.  I will be uploading a game where a clan mate wanted to have some secondary fun on his GK.  So I would smoke him in near a cap on my first smoke.  He'd rain secondaries on anything in range, and when a CA popped up to radar the smoke he'd hammer them.  Kind of amusing to watch all of these US CA players crapthemselves going from easy kill to FML in seconds.  He would then just use his HP to tank the 20 seconds until he dropped off.  Plenty of ways to do it.

I would say do whatever works best for you, and what you enjoy most.  Making videos can be very time consuming depending on how much work you put into it.

 

depending on the map and location + team comp, i like to smoke a long kinda diagonal path for them to get as close as they want, but also room to stay farther back, or do a turn without being spotted.   

 

I seen Flamu do something similar with his MA the other day.  Was pretty funny to watch those cruisers get torn apart as they charged his smoke. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Members
1,860 posts
10,311 battles
47 minutes ago, Frederick_The_Great said:

I would say do whatever works best for you, and what you enjoy most.  Making videos can be very time consuming depending on how much work you put into it.

 

depending on the map and location + team comp, i like to smoke a long kinda diagonal path for them to get as close as they want, but also room to stay farther back, or do a turn without being spotted.   

 

I seen Flamu do something similar with his MA the other day.  Was pretty funny to watch those cruisers get torn apart as they charged his smoke. 

Thats the amusing part.

The current meta has CAs falling all over themselves to rush smoke to radar the loli boat that dared to violate EPA regulations in their presence. 

So much time has gone by from the smoke meta people have forgotten that big mean things can still hide in there.

Anyways, got 4 new videos uploading as I type.  Tomorrow you should have a few good games to watch including a 240k Gearing game that starts out with me smoking a clan mates GK into B cap on Land of Fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×