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CallMe_Speshul_Dave

High Tier Destroyer Game Play and why it is getting unplayable

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Here I furnish the actual misery on why high tier DD game play is in the ruin due to recent changes and preexisting nonsensical radar deployment combined with BBAP (which is being fixed OFC but problem still exists).
I do not have a problem with radar in general or its realism [edited](This game is arcade and i know it). I consider Russian Radars to be balanced, and US T8 radar to be relatively bearable.

The problem is when DPM scales super quick as Tiers Progress whereas HP doesnt but this doesn't bode well when you have a class that primarily functions on not getting spotted in the first place. I have linked a picture on why i think this is not good especially for dds. 
I do not suggest that we need more HP for dds, I am basically saying  that a 330% increase in efficiency at killing dds is not balanced because while Battleships and Cruisers get proportionally more Armour Heal etc to balance the negative effects of increased dpm at high tiers DD's get none . Also there are quite a lot of factors missing in my comparison that are listed below. Also of considerable importance is that the number of radar cruisers in the game with scale up by 20% as well due to the pending release of the US Light cruiser line. 

Assumptions

1.This assumes that only 1 ship with higher DPM is shooting at you in higher tiers when in reality multiple enemy ships with relatively improved dpm will be shooting.

2.This also negates the fact that the Benson is much harder to hit compared to the gearing due its agility and size. 

3.This situation assumes that you face T10 Cruisers with a T10 DD which is not the case you can be in battle with T8 dd. In that case this problem becomes much more 


EDIT : If you down vote my post or others here, please have the courtesy to explain why you think this is wrong with a factual and rational thought process which will be highly appreciated 

EDIT 2 : This has more to do with whats wrong, I am not really looking for advice ( i can play thats not the problem here and i follow a guy who knows what he is doing)  its a discussion on why the game lacks balanced lets keep the discussion focussed on that. 

 

Capture.PNG

Edited by CallMe_Speshul_Dave
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You can always switch to RU DDs. Ever since everyone went american cruisers it's been a blat-fest in my khab. Those american shells can't hit s*** and they burn like the fourth of july!  

Radar does make playing conventional DDs more difficult. I'm now seeing 4-5 radar ships in each match with high regularity. I'm compensating by relying on cover more than concealment. When I go into a cap, I always prepare my escape route and try to make sure there is an island to hide behind until the radar stops. Doesn't always work, but it's the best I've found so far. 

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I do agree with you that US radar is lasting too long currently. You even left out the special upgrade that is available for tier 9 and 10. This will bring DMs radar to 56 seconds.
I think nerfing US radar to 35 seconds is okay.

If we could leave the "git gut" comments out this time. Thanks in advance. 

Edit: I assume that every down vote is a DM player that can’t aim. Come on, must be more than 4.

Edited by LemonadeWarrior
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@mrieder79 Yes  i do agree that Soviet dds are much much better now but they still dont fulfill the actual dd role that traditional dds do. Someone has to control caps and this ridiculous radar deployment has become beyond ridiculous.  :D

And i would actually argue it is a long term issue and is not limited to the new ships.  The only only good part about being radared by us ships is shell velocity but then if you are radared you get shot at by all nearby ships making that more redundant :(

 

@LemonadeWarrior  Yes I did not even go to the special radar module ( i kinda forgot actually ) , when 40 seconds is unbearable 56 seconds and 1 minute 6 seconds in the case of legendary just dont make sense at all. Cruiser get infinitely more powerful against DDs while DDs dont really get any better than they were at T8 at killing battleships. :D

Edited by CallMe_Speshul_Dave
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Make the mini map your friend.  You need to be cautious until you know where the radar ships are.

 

Until they are spotted you can only assume where they will be, its not hard to guess, and play very cautiously.

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@Camo68 I am doing exactly that, but the overarching problem still exists and that is what I want to be fixed.  DD's are less likely to do damage, less likely to end up high on the scoreboard because they cant deal damage and now that this problem is getting worse they cant even be close to other targets which considerably reduces torpedo impact in the game. 

Battleships can shoot HE to kill dds, Cruisers can outspot Battleships thereby picking who they fight and when they fight and they can use torps , HE 203 AP against them because battleship and are comparatively effective atleast . When it comes to dds, you cannot outspot the light cruisers because of radar and rendering time and you have 0 tools to save yourself from those light cruisers. 

While arguments have been made that dds shouldn't have anything against light cruisers which i would agree to, it is just not to case for every other class in the game. 

I just want the overall balance issue to be fixed 

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I agree it isnt getting any easier but you can still be very effective if you can coordinate with your team. While actual agreement on plans is rare in random the good thing is that it takes very little encouragement for BBs to shoot at cruisers (they are like bees to honey trying to citadel a cruiser) so bait the cruisers to use radar and push out to get some shots on you while you kite back out of range while designating them as a target with the F3 key.

 

Most of my high tier DDs have RPF to help detect hiding ships and i have found that dumping speculative torps, while running towards where the ca is hiding in cover,  assuming the CA will push out to fire on me, has been quite productive catching quite a few ships broadside basically sitting still.

 

I enjoy the changes even thiugh they make play more challenging, it stops the game getting stale.

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17 minutes ago, Camo68 said:

I agree it isnt getting any easier but you can still be very effective if you can coordinate with your team.

A mechanic (or ship type) that requires more then one player to overcome is the very definition of overpowered.  CVs fall into this category and that's why they are disliked by so many players.  Now let me be clear, I'm not say radar is overpowered in all circumstances.  However, its not balanced properly and it can (and does) become overpowered.  For example, a DM, with the radar upgrade mod, behind an island covering two caps.  That can be op.  Put that DM in a division and it can get op as all get out.  Now, lets add 2-4 more radar ships on that team.  You can see how that gets out of hand in a hurry.  I didn't even throw in premium radar consumable, and/or superintendent. 

Radar in moderation is workable.  The problem is WG keeps expanding radar.  As many as 8 new radar ships here, or on the way.  I can see things getting really out of hand.

39 minutes ago, Camo68 said:

I enjoy the changes even thiugh they make play more challenging, it stops the game getting stale.

I have no doubt you are looking for new challenges with over 11 thousand games under your belt.  What about the new guys coming up?  This game has a ton of churn and we have no shortage of inexperienced players at high tiers.  This new meta is going to chew them up and spit them out.  Maybe you don't care about.  I do, we need players to keep this game going.  Again, radar, even with its flaws, is a workable mechanic.  That said, I think I laid out a pretty good case as to why its going in a not so good for the game direction.        

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The major thing that most people don't like about T-10 is this- I played the Des Moines in the Public test, radar worked great. I did 95,000 damage and still had Negative credits!!!

How much Damage must one do in T-10 to get Positive credits on the books?

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16 hours ago, rustydawg said:

The major thing that most people don't like about T-10 is this- I played the Des Moines in the Public test, radar worked great. I did 95,000 damage and still had Negative credits!!!

How much Damage must one do in T-10 to get Positive credits on the books?

Damage XP is based on % of ship hit. If you do 20K to a BB you get low XP since it is only a fraction of the BB. If you 20K to a DD you get high XP. 

You also get XP for spotting, capping,, and other game actions.

More base XP = more credits, XP, and free XP.

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I'm not that experienced yet in the 'game mechanics' but I am very familiar with how naval systems work and I've shelved my T-9's and 10's until the radar meta has come and gone....  I.e.  radar ship picketing caps is a normal activity.  everyone expects a DD screen and yet, there are no DD screens; just one radar picket after another....  One after the other with about two minutes in between power-ups....and, not enough time to find a picket seam, exploit the seam and launch a torpedo strike....  As someone said earlier, it's too expensive to operate T9-10 ships and not produce damage....  So, I've stopped playing T9-10 because it isn't "value-added" anymore....

"Houston, we have a problem!"   No DD roles means no naval WW2 doctrine and what is left is an arcade FPS FFA; and, I didn't join WoWs for a silly arcade FPS....  The writing is on the wall WG....  Revenue stunts fail a vast majority of the time and the whole Cruiser HE spam and Radar extravaganza is just a stunt to show profitability to someone, for some reason?    OK, let's get back to WW2 Naval warfare and tone down the meta to where it belongs: an unpleasant surprise but, not a expansion of the game's timeline.....   You start getting into the 1950s and 60's and us Harpoon players will be very hard to beat......with missiles, subs (we have actual sub vets in our clan !) and operational Electronic systems precision...

Once the cat is out of that bag, you can't go back.....

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I was playing a Gearing last night.  My plan was to run to A and pop smoke on one side of the cap, and then run to the other side with my bow pointed out right at the edge, ready to run behind an island if I was spotted.  I figured the smoke would be a torpedo magnet, and the cruisers and BBs would have their guns trained on it, waiting for something to spot for them.  Well, before I could even finish deploying the smoke a Des Moines lit me up.  He must have charged straight into the cap at full speed to get there that fast.  I ran and eventually got clear, but it took forever before I shook the detection.  I must have dodged 200-300 shells.  While I was running, the reds killed all the other greens on that side of the map, and then some French cruiser with speed boost came charging through the cap hunting me.  I couldn't run fast enough to keep him from getting into spotting range, even without radar.  And of course my torpedoes didn't hit anything.

What it looks like is DD and cruiser roles are going to be somewhat reversed.  DDs are going to have to rely on radar cruisers for scouting, so they can launch torps from outside of radar range at targets moving towards them. 

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If I wanted to play passive as f@ck, I wouldn't be playing Destroyers. Now I have to play DD passive as f@ck so I just don't play at all instead. 

Well done.

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4 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Damage XP is based on % of ship hit. If you do 20K to a BB you get low XP since it is only a fraction of the BB. If you 20K to a DD you get high XP. 

You also get XP for spotting, capping,, and other game actions.

More base XP = more credits, XP, and free XP.

I feel sorry for that Gearing I lit up with radar, I pounded him as did a few others he maybe got 5 shots off before he was deleted!

Edited by rustydawg

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7 hours ago, Camo68 said:

Make the mini map your friend.  You need to be cautious until you know where the radar ships are.

 

Until they are spotted you can only assume where they will be, its not hard to guess, and play very cautiously.

And if they aren't spotted, their radar works exactly the same way as AP bombs do on BBs, for which is there is much shrieking and wailing among the hypocritical "nerf DDs, buff BBs" crowd.

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13 hours ago, Canadatron said:

If I wanted to play passive as f@ck, I wouldn't be playing Destroyers. Now I have to play DD passive as f@ck so I just don't play at all instead. 

Well done.

Exactly man exactly. They made the destroyers which were actually playing the objective spotting and doing actual crapthat matters passive AF. Its like they want this game to be a 20 km long shoot and torp fiesta. I hate the stupidity they put in this. They basically give everything radars because they know american light cruisers will be crap and no one will play them without radar. So essentially they promote a new branch by shitting on an entire class

When it takes 2-3 minutes to get into position to cap an objection for example the radar cool down expires and then we go again. I am not even gonna involve the possibility of multiple radars here. They just stack and turn life to hell.

Edited by CallMe_Speshul_Dave
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15 hours ago, zubalkabir said:

Well, before I could even finish deploying the smoke a Des Moines lit me up.  He must have charged straight into the cap at full speed to get there that fast. 

I find these from time to time when I push caps in my BB.  The way you stop this kind of CA foolshness is to have some BB players with some balls on your team.

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I had a game in my YY last night and I had no problems with getting 3 kills and a couple of caps, 100k plus damage, the biggest thing is know your enemy

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17 hours ago, Asym_KS said:

I didn't join WoWs for a silly arcade FPS...

 

You realize you're playing a Wargaming product, right?

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44 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

I had a game in my YY last night and I had no problems with getting 3 kills and a couple of caps, 100k plus damage, the biggest thing is know your enemy

I can get 100k+ damage too the solution to a problem is not "git gud" or know the enemy. It is a simple fact that a team with 4 radar cruisers sitting around will kill dds more efficiently.  Flambass from CR33D just had a 300K Fletcher game 2 days ago. He is a competitive DD player who won KoTs 4 times till date. You can go search youtube for his rants on why radars are overpowered especially with 56 second action times 10 KM range. Here is the link 


Having 100K games is not the issue it is the consistency with which you can do damage which is certainly lacking here.

How many dds did you see in KoTs . Let me tell you 1 maybe maximum (people sometimes did not even bring dds ) . Because essentially War gaming made the entire class of DDs so fragile and unplayable atm. i.e Any team who has brains can counter torpedos coordinate and shoot to kill destroyers when radared 

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1 minute ago, CallMe_Speshul_Dave said:

You can go search youtube for his rants

I'm not interested in anyone ranting, DD are quite playable, people do not want to change how they play when something else comes along which is designed to kill you, there are so many scrub DD players in higher tiers that die in seconds cause they're to dumb to realise their are radar CA's in the area, its the radar ships that push up to attack the DD that help their team, when your team sits back and does not push, their radar is useless.

As far as KOTS goes that is not randoms and they chose to not use a DD.

People are so down on people using their radar ship, get over it, with the new lines coming there will be even more, if you don't like it play a BB or play a radar ship or a DD but saying its a problem when they're are introducing new lines is stupid as everyone wants to grind them.

I play DD and do reasonably well in them, I am not afraid of all the radar, I play my game to work around it, those that don't, and then complain on the forums are whiny little female dogs.

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The biggest problem is actually the fact that for you to get spotting damage, you have to be spotted. This is singular biggest problem. DD's are meant to spot others and not be spotted in the first place.. This has made it that to score decent you have to score an insane amount of damage just to break even in a match.  I have capped, and done over 100k damage( Ya thats a just a decent battle, nothing to brag about, but its enough I shouldn't end up on the short end of credits) and lost credits in the  Chung Mu. I also spotted numerous ships but I manged avoid being spotted much so I didn't get much credit for those I spotted and they were damaged because of my spotting. So its hard enough as a dd when you get spotted, but then you are at the mercy of having competent teammates  to actually hit the spotted ships, or at least ones even willing to not hide behind islands or ones that will actually shoot that are in the open and not detected for fear of ruining there concealment. The new rules for scoring have made it easy to lvl the Russian dd's, since with there concealment your always spotted and finished that entire line quickly already.  This has pushed away teammates that only has 1 tear 10 dd, the Shima, because all to often he is losing credits now and needs credits badly to purchase other ships he has the exp for already, when before he always scored enough to cover battle costs.

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1 hour ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

I had a game in my YY last night and I had no problems with getting 3 kills and a couple of caps, 100k plus damage, the biggest thing is know your enemy

Yes. In the one DD that HAS radar.

And in a division.

With a cruiser with radar.

Yeah, you showed us.

34 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

I'm not interested in anyone ranting, DD are quite playable, people do not want to change how they play when something else comes along which is designed to kill you, there are so many scrub DD players in higher tiers that die in seconds cause they're to dumb to realise their are radar CA's in the area, its the radar ships that push up to attack the DD that help their team, when your team sits back and does not push, their radar is useless.

To be fair, you're a scrub DD player. You're very lacking in experience with DDs, especially at higher level. Makes me wonder why people complaining about radar bothers you so much? It's generally accepted that the current environment is terrible and ridiculous. Why are you posting on every radar thread trying to defend it and tell everyone things are fine?

Checking your stats, your only T10 DD is the khab. Other than the russian DD line, your most played DDs are the Mahan with 44 battles. You have 34 matches in the Benson, 32 with the Shira, 30 with the Akizuki is the closest you come to experience with high tier DDs. Your win rates are good, we're talking super small sample sizes.

As far as ranked goes, you only have 3 ranked matches in the Benson and 9 in the Aki. Worth noting your ranked winrate in the Aki is 22%, but again, small sample size. Doesn't seem like you set the world on fire when you tried taking a DD into this past season's rank, anyways.

Compare that to people have have 500+ matches in DDs. Hell, I had 302 shima battles in this past rank season alone.

Not saying you can't voice an opinion. Not trying to demean you or shame you. Just trying to point out that DD experience-wise, you're not even at the toddler stage yet. Rio off a couple hundred matches in T9 or 10 IJN DD then come back and tell us what patterns you notice that appear in your matches.

 

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18 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Yes. In the one DD that HAS radar. I use smoke

And in a division. no by myself

With a cruiser with radar. no by myself

Yeah, you showed us. 

To be fair, you're a scrub DD player. You're very lacking in experience with DDs, especially at higher level. Makes me wonder why people complaining about radar bothers you so much? It's generally accepted that the current environment is terrible and ridiculous. Why are you posting on every radar thread trying to defend it and tell everyone things are fine?

Checking your stats, your only T10 DD is the khab. Other than the russian DD line, your most played DDs are the Mahan with 44 battles. You have 34 matches in the Benson, 32 with the Shira, 30 with the Akizuki is the closest you come to experience with high tier DDs. Your win rates are good, we're talking super small sample sizes.

As far as ranked goes, you only have 3 ranked matches in the Benson and 9 in the Aki. Worth noting your ranked winrate in the Aki is 22%, but again, small sample size. Doesn't seem like you set the world on fire when you tried taking a DD into this past season's rank, anyways.

Compare that to people have have 500+ matches in DDs. Hell, I had 302 shima battles in this past rank season alone.

Not saying you can't voice an opinion. Not trying to demean you or shame you. Just trying to point out that DD experience-wise, you're not even at the toddler stage yet. Rio off a couple hundred matches in T9 or 10 IJN DD then come back and tell us what patterns you notice that appear in your matches.

 

You must be looking at someone elses stats if you are saying I only have a Khab at t10, and my aki wr is 22% not even close. 1034 battles in Akizuki 60.15% WR average damage of 50k, and sees mostly t10 battles, which I like.

Please get your facts straight as nothing you mention here is correct in any way shape or form.

You have shown everyone how dumb you are and if you actually looked at my stats, you might realise to me, your the scrub in a DD

Edited by CriMiNaL__

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22 minutes ago, CriMiNaL__ said:

You must be looking at someone elses stats if you are saying I only have a Khab at t10, and my aki wr is 22% not even close. 1034 battles in Akizuki 60.15% WR average damage of 50k, and sees mostly t10 battles, which I like.

Please get your facts straight as nothing you mention here is correct in any way shape or form.

You have shown everyone how dumb you are and if you actually looked at my stats, you might realise to me, your the scrub in a DD

Check yourself. https://na.warships.today/player/1013774019/CriMiNaL__

I'd take you a little more seriously if you had shown what you could do with a T10 DD in ranked. 

And for the record, I'm not saying DDs are unplayable. In fact, radar is opening up lots of opportunity for those that know how to play. Just got out of this match 3 minutes ago:

Spoiler

MOdHu28.png

 

Edited by Lensar
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