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CommodoreKang

An idea to fix CVs

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Get rid of cvs in normal game mode.  Create a new game mode called "CV Gameplay" where everyone is a CV.  This way you could still have CVs in game.  Anyone who loves the CV playstyle could enjoy it with other players who also enjoy that play style.  And everyone else can play the other game.

 

Seems foolproof to me.  What are your thoughts?

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I can see why you'd think this was cool... but...

Do you honestly want to sit there trying to strafe fighters non-stop for 20 minutes? The bombers would be... kinda useless... everybody would show up fitted for air superiority.

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aircraft increases load on graphics engine, server and slows rendering time. Having a game full of CVs is asking everyone to drag their computer's frame rate down to the single digits.

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28 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

I can see why you'd think this was cool... but...

Do you honestly want to sit there trying to strafe fighters non-stop for 20 minutes? The bombers would be... kinda useless... everybody would show up fitted for air superiority.

Maybe they could get rid of most of the fighters in that mode and give all the CVs an AA button they can press along with some buffed AA.  Would that make it a little less tedious?

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4 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Maybe they could get rid of most of the fighters in that mode and give all the CVs an AA button they can press along with some buffed AA.  Would that make it a little less tedious?

Have you ever played Battlestations: Pacific/Midway? For the Xbox 360 and Steam?

In that game you could individually control every plane in the squadron in a first person view, and you could control the ships (carriers) as well. You're idea would be neat if WoWs had a similar ability. But with the current game engine (I highly doubt that WarGaming would be too enthusiastic about developing another engine), I'm not sure what you're suggesting is even possible from a development standpoint.

How does one balance the gameplay and make it interesting? Your idea is to basically remove fighters then have the players controlling bombers and AA? Sounds a bit lacking to be honest...

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3 minutes ago, ElectroVeeDub said:

Have you ever played Battlestations: Pacific/Midway? For the Xbox 360 and Steam?

In that game you could individually control every plane in the squadron in a first person view, and you could control the ships (carriers) as well. You're idea would be neat if WoWs had a similar ability. But with the current game engine (I highly doubt that WarGaming would be too enthusiastic about developing another engine), I'm not sure what you're suggesting is even possible from a development standpoint.

How does one balance the gameplay and make it interesting? Your idea is to basically remove fighters then have the players controlling bombers and AA? Sounds a bit lacking to be honest...

Yeah, I know pushing that Defensive AA button isn't the height of exciting and tactical gameplay.  It's astoundingly uninspiring gameplay if we're being honest about it.

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You just need to cut the vas deferens and then cauterize the ends. Voila! The CV is fixed. 

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2 hours ago, CommodoreKang said:

Get rid of cvs in normal game mode.  Create a new game mode called "CV Gameplay" where everyone is a CV.  This way you could still have CVs in game.  Anyone who loves the CV playstyle could enjoy it with other players who also enjoy that play style.  And everyone else can play the other game.

 

Seems foolproof to me.  What are your thoughts?

sound like a dub idea. CV been in the game from day one hole captain and class disguised around countering them to get ride of them would be dumb.

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10 minutes ago, DeadIyArT said:

sound like a dub idea. CV been in the game from day one hole captain and class disguised around countering them to get ride of them would be dumb.

The Cleveland used to be the hard counter to CVs at T6.  I played several hundred games in the Cleve after the split was announced.

 

There were CVs In maybe 50 of those games.  Of those 50ish, there were maybe 5 or 10 where CV planes strayed near enough to use DefAA.  The rest of the time they just keep their planes 8 or 10k away once they realize where you are.  The hard counter is more like a small area denial ability rather than actually being a hard counter.

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1 hour ago, CommodoreKang said:

The Cleveland used to be the hard counter to CVs at T6.  I played several hundred games in the Cleve after the split was announced.

 

There were CVs In maybe 50 of those games.  Of those 50ish, there were maybe 5 or 10 where CV planes strayed near enough to use DefAA.  The rest of the time they just keep their planes 8 or 10k away once they realize where you are.  The hard counter is more like a small area denial ability rather than actually being a hard counter.

Because Cleveland at that tier was OP as hell and disintegrated planes, an issue overall with CV and AA balance they need to address by nerfing CV alpha, and bring AA back to a reasonable level. 

Also - Small? Cleveland's max AA range is 7.2 km, and even at long range, without DF AA, it could bring planes down, all around it. of 6 maps that state tier 6 is part of the MM, 3 are 36x36 km (3.6x3.6 km grid squares), 2 are 42x42, and 1 is 48x48. On most maps your effectively taking out a 4x4 grid of area to fly on, on a 10x10 map. 16 of 100 squares, and forbid you have 3 decent AA ships that can literally shut down 1/3 of the map. And given the low air spotting ranges, it's enough range to keep a DD hidden from planes and be unable to be attacked, or cover a BB. It's even bigger when you factor a lot of the action happens in the center and all, basically take out the back 2-3 lines where typically just the CV is, on both sides, narrows the general combat area to usually closer to 6x10.

 

Not to mention your troll of an idea has been brought up countless times and even wargaming's answer is the same - NO. Surprised no one linked a "beating a dead horse thing". They just to ACTUALLY FIX the damn things. Problem is no one in the community is reasonable or unified on what it should be because you have CV players vs non-CV players, "Pro's vs Joe's", USN main vs IJN main, and maybe a couple others and no one wants to compromise they just want their thing buffed and everything else nerfed.

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2 minutes ago, WanderingGhost said:

Because Cleveland at that tier was OP as hell and disintegrated planes, an issue overall with CV and AA balance they need to address by nerfing CV alpha, and bring AA back to a reasonable level. 

Also - Small? Cleveland's max AA range is 7.2 km, and even at long range, without DF AA, it could bring planes down, all around it. of 6 maps that state tier 6 is part of the MM, 3 are 36x36 km (3.6x3.6 km grid squares), 2 are 42x42, and 1 is 48x48. On most maps your effectively taking out a 4x4 grid of area to fly on, on a 10x10 map. 16 of 100 squares, and forbid you have 3 decent AA ships that can literally shut down 1/3 of the map. And given the low air spotting ranges, it's enough range to keep a DD hidden from planes and be unable to be attacked, or cover a BB. It's even bigger when you factor a lot of the action happens in the center and all, basically take out the back 2-3 lines where typically just the CV is, on both sides, narrows the general combat area to usually closer to 6x10.

 

Not to mention your troll of an idea has been brought up countless times and even wargaming's answer is the same - NO. Surprised no one linked a "beating a dead horse thing". They just to ACTUALLY FIX the damn things. Problem is no one in the community is reasonable or unified on what it should be because you have CV players vs non-CV players, "Pro's vs Joe's", USN main vs IJN main, and maybe a couple others and no one wants to compromise they just want their thing buffed and everything else nerfed.

Even with a full AA spec, you're going to struggle to provide AA cover for anyone other than yourself.  And all the CV has to do is fly his planes 7.2 km away from you and your counter is worthless and the CV can murder your buddy and you can't do a thing about it.  Any other ship class that wants to murder my buddy 7.2 km away and at least I could shoot at them.

 

The CV thing is entirely different than all the other buff/nerf arguments.  CVs are a square peg in a round hole game.  A hand grenade in a rock paper scissors game.  It's a dead horse until it isn't.  Will be interesting to see what the upcoming change is.  

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25 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

Even with a full AA spec, you're going to struggle to provide AA cover for anyone other than yourself.  And all the CV has to do is fly his planes 7.2 km away from you and your counter is worthless and the CV can murder your buddy and you can't do a thing about it.  Any other ship class that wants to murder my buddy 7.2 km away and at least I could shoot at them.

They made it AA of multiple ships stack. If you are in 2 grid squares of a teammate - going off numbers on the wiki now you'd add 90 to their DPS, or, full AA build with focus target, somewhere around 308 dps, which is a pretty big difference. Inside 5 km you'd add that much more, at least one grid square. All you have to do is be within a certain range of the teammate. Not that hard given many cruisers are as fast or faster than the battleships. If somebody out runs AA and is on their own, if the friendly CV has them covered great - but that's them taking the chance they are going to get hammered by the CV, with no cover. They over extended far enough to be alone, a prime target for a CV and a dumb idea when we still have this way too high alpha strike ability.

Also, last check they never changed range - Your buddy is 5 km ahead of you, the other cruisers, DD, and BB's shooting at him are 11 km ahead of him - putting them at 16 km when Cleveland's firing range is basically 15 1/2 km - well, now your in the same scenario where - you can't do anything to help.

The key is still the same - team work. Lone wolf not even trying is always more likely to get wrecked. Slow your roll, stick closer to the team, tend to do better, same vs ships, same vs planes. 

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1 minute ago, WanderingGhost said:

They made it AA of multiple ships stack. If you are in 2 grid squares of a teammate - going off numbers on the wiki now you'd add 90 to their DPS, or, full AA build with focus target, somewhere around 308 dps, which is a pretty big difference. Inside 5 km you'd add that much more, at least one grid square. All you have to do is be within a certain range of the teammate. Not that hard given many cruisers are as fast or faster than the battleships. If somebody out runs AA and is on their own, if the friendly CV has them covered great - but that's them taking the chance they are going to get hammered by the CV, with no cover. They over extended far enough to be alone, a prime target for a CV and a dumb idea when we still have this way too high alpha strike ability.

Also, last check they never changed range - Your buddy is 5 km ahead of you, the other cruisers, DD, and BB's shooting at him are 11 km ahead of him - putting them at 16 km when Cleveland's firing range is basically 15 1/2 km - well, now your in the same scenario where - you can't do anything to help.

The key is still the same - team work. Lone wolf not even trying is always more likely to get wrecked. Slow your roll, stick closer to the team, tend to do better, same vs ships, same vs planes. 

You can say that all you want.  It still won't change the experience I saw over several hundred games.  90% of the time the CV specifically avoided me.  In several games, I intentionally set out to counter an early game CV snipe.  But it's almost impossible to try to chase down planes even if you happen to be on the right side.

You can escort the carrier but when the enemy CV sees you, he just dumps his load on the nearest BB that's 7.2 km or more away.  You can escort BBs but they won't be near the cap so the CV will snipe the DD on the cap instead.  You can try to cover the DD but when he gets radared, he's going to need to maneuver and you're stuck immobile behind an island.  And sure, you can pop your DAA at max range and it might get a panic going but it's not going to shred anything quick enough to eliminate the threat.  And now the CV knows you've blown your wad and just has to wait 40 seconds to cross drop with impunity.

 

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nvm

Edited by Crucis

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4 hours ago, CommodoreKang said:

The Cleveland used to be the hard counter to CVs at T6.  I played several hundred games in the Cleve after the split was announced.

 

There were CVs In maybe 50 of those games.  Of those 50ish, there were maybe 5 or 10 where CV planes strayed near enough to use DefAA.  The rest of the time they just keep their planes 8 or 10k away once they realize where you are.  The hard counter is more like a small area denial ability rather than actually being a hard counter.

Area denial is a hard counter when used correctly. If you can't put planes near a cap, or have to go a long way around to get to any other ships, you're going to have a rough time as a CV. And a ship with strong AA, and shell arcs that allow island hugging is great at positioning to do that.

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1 minute ago, cometguy said:

Area denial is a hard counter when used correctly. If you can't put planes near a cap, or have to go a long way around to get to any other ships, you're going to have a rough time as a CV. And a ship with strong AA, and shell arcs that allow island hugging is great at positioning to do that.

At best, it might slow down a CVs damage output slightly as he re-positions his planes but once they know where you are they just avoid that area.  And the concept of using your AA bubbles to lock out whole sections of the map is much more theoretical than practical.    

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11 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

At best, it might slow down a CVs damage output slightly as he re-positions his planes but once they know where you are they just avoid that area.  And the concept of using your AA bubbles to lock out whole sections of the map is much more theoretical than practical.    

That's why you make the area they avoid an area vital for winning the game. Not all damage is equal, and not all damage matters. And I'm not sure how you can say locking out whole zones is more theoretical than practical, when by your own account, 80-90% of the time, the CV wouldn't send planes anywhere near you. If that's not a hard counter, I don't know what is.

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23 minutes ago, CommodoreKang said:

You can say that all you want.  It still won't change the experience I saw over several hundred games.  90% of the time the CV specifically avoided me.  In several games, I intentionally set out to counter an early game CV snipe.  But it's almost impossible to try to chase down planes even if you happen to be on the right side.

You can escort the carrier but when the enemy CV sees you, he just dumps his load on the nearest BB that's 7.2 km or more away.  You can escort BBs but they won't be near the cap so the CV will snipe the DD on the cap instead.  You can try to cover the DD but when he gets radared, he's going to need to maneuver and you're stuck immobile behind an island.  And sure, you can pop your DAA at max range and it might get a panic going but it's not going to shred anything quick enough to eliminate the threat.  And now the CV knows you've blown your wad and just has to wait 40 seconds to cross drop with impunity.

 

1. No duh they avoided you, that's the point of it. They avoid you, and anything near you, hence AREA DENIAL.

2. You shouldn't be countering a CV snipe, ever. CV has it's own AA and fighters to handle that and with how long it takes aircraft to go on the map edge to hopefully circumvent being spotted (which means they have to have no ship within 8km of them), is so long by then the CV player should be able to tell that the opposing CV player is trying to snipe them. It's the secondary reason I hold my attack planes in reserve and back at the start, to give the opposing CV a moment of pause as to where he holds his fighters so that I can maybe get around them with the threat of a snipe attempt. Countering the snipe is 100% the CV's job - end of story there.

3. The BB's are the ones that need protection, with a few exceptions (AA builds on high tier USN/UK are near immune to planes of equal tier, maybe a little higher, they slaughter low tiers).

4. Odds are that the DD, that's likely the next target, when it get's radar'd - is running TOWARD you away from the radar to try and get it out of range to stop getting shot at, meaning he's running toward even better AA. It's not likely using it's smoke cause, duh, radar goes through it which means even more it should be running toward friendly ships. It can also hide in the smoke, once radar is no loner a treat, and hide YOU in the smoke, hell they whined enough a freaking IOWA can hide in the smoke, AA guns blazing, and not be spotted. Not to mention a half decent DD player can still dodge even some of the best cross drops, the only potential issue, is actually MANUAL DROP. Which I'm pretty sure in my first post I say we need to lower CV alpha damage, and that's why. And DB's hitting DD's is a massive RNG role even with manual drop.

5. You don't pop DF AA at max range, ever, you wait for them to get in a bit so when you pop it, they are screwed. And even WITHOUT DFAA, Cleveland when it was tier 6 had MORE than enough even in partial AA builds to shred planes, even now it still does well against tier 8 and 9. The real AA cruisers have DF AA which ranks as the same auto delete mess as strafing, but they don't need.

6. The only way they have the ability to cross drop with impunity, is a single, lone ship, with basically no AA, with 0 fighter cover around INCLUDING catapult fighters, in which the only case that should happen, is basically said teammate over extended, either knowing fighter cover was on the other side of the map, shot down, or occupied or oblivious to it, in a DD and certain cruisers.

7. And even THEN - there are exactly 11 ships that can use cross drop, 12 if we count GZ. The entire IJN line (7 ships), Midway, Kaga, Saipan, and Enterprise. The entire IJN line has huge gaps that you can turn a BB into, and a cruiser and DD can easily dodge into a gap and manage to miss them all, or take maybe 1 hit. Saipan has the same spacing as IJN but only 3 torps. If I could I'd get you the replay of my Arizona dodging Saipan torps and even downing a few planes. Kaga and Enterprise have those weirder drops where there's less of a gap unless it's very long range dropped but can still minimize damage, especially E's. Which leave's Midway which yes, is OP as hell with it's cross drop, it was OP 2 years ago when they removed it, I have no damn clue why the hell they added it back. Once IJN gets 3 TB groups yes, it can get a little nuts, yes again, manual drop causes issues, yet again - why CV's need an alpha nerf.

 

And 8. in response to your statement that "locking map sections out is theoretical, not practical" - I encountered 2 Des's and a Minotaur, not even div'd just randoms, park at A, B, and C behind islands where they could get shots off, but my planes couldn't get anywhere near the caps, not my bombers, not my fighters, none of it, I couldn't even get to the other side of the map without heavy losses. Their DD's got into caps, bombers couldn't get in range to hit them. Even if the team drove the DD's from the caps, I couldn't get fighters close enough to aid the DD's without heavy losses before hitting the attacking planes, and ships close to the caps I basically had to try to strafe at the last second to protect the planes, or risk losing my fighters that would have a long rearm penalty, and put me down a very limited resource especially post hanger nerf. And because my team, even when they had openings, never targeted those cruisers, I couldn't do anything till late in the match when finally, a handful of red ships were just far enough forward I could actually try and hit them, but at that point, damage was done.

 

Go play a CV, not just tier 4 or 5, get to 6, 7, 8, get to matches with ships with REAL AA - then come back after several there and tell me that area denial is theoretical, that cruisers can't make a difference even if the team sticks together or they are hiding behind a rock.

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7 hours ago, cometguy said:

That's why you make the area they avoid an area vital for winning the game. Not all damage is equal, and not all damage matters. And I'm not sure how you can say locking out whole zones is more theoretical than practical, when by your own account, 80-90% of the time, the CV wouldn't send planes anywhere near you. If that's not a hard counter, I don't know what is.

I can "lock out" a zone of about 2k by 2k.  Anything larger than that and I'd need to use DefAA to prevent fighters from crossing that area.  Any fighters crossing beyond that range and yeah I can knock down a couple but it's not going to stop the CV from moving his planes where he wants.  That is in no way a hard counter for the team.   

Edited by CommodoreKang

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7 hours ago, WanderingGhost said:

 

5. You don't pop DF AA at max range, ever, you wait for them to get in a bit so when you pop it, they are screwed. And even WITHOUT DFAA, Cleveland when it was tier 6 had MORE than enough even in partial AA builds to shred planes, even now it still does well against tier 8 and 9. The real AA cruisers have DF AA which ranks as the same auto delete mess as strafing, but they don't need.

Duh, silly.  But if you don't pop DFAA then you're not really going to prevent a CV from dropping on anything at max range.  Let's be real here.

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13 hours ago, Taichunger said:

You just need to cut the vas deferens and then cauterize the ends. Voila! The CV is fixed. 

But ships are female...

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Anyone who claims that area denial isn't a hard counter to CVs hasn't had much experience facing off against AA-CV divs.

Edited by Flashtirade

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7 minutes ago, Flashtirade said:

Anyone who claims that area denial isn't a hard counter to CVs hasn't had much experience facing off against AA-CV divs.

How does a 2k by 2k AA area denial bubble hard counter CVs?  The answer is that it doesn't.  The CV just flies their planes around your little bubble because planes are much faster than a ship and they can simply chose to go where you aren't.

 

In the end game, when there's just a few ships left on either side, the situation is a little better but the CV still has to intentionally and stupidly push his planes into my bubble for my AA button to be of any use.

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1 hour ago, CommodoreKang said:

I can "lock out" a zone of about 2k by 2k.  Anything larger than that and I'd need to use DefAA to prevent fighters from crossing that area.  Any fighters crossing beyond that range and yeah I can knock down a couple but it's not going to stop the CV from moving his planes where he wants.  That is in no way a hard counter for the team.   

Other than the 200 square kilometers deemed too risky to operate due to your present, of course.

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