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CaptainTeddybear

Hindenburg nerf

Should Hindenburg be nerfed  

206 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Hindenburg be nerfed

    • Yes
      43
    • No
      163

61 comments in this topic

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1 hour ago, KiyoSenkan said:

If they're going to nerf "Battleship" Hindenberg, than they should also nerf "battleship" Moskva, "Battleship" Konstadt, and "Battleship" Stalingrad.

You don't get to be a BB at high tier with 25mm bow armor

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Hindi range, rof or fire-chance needs a nerf. I agree. I love mine when I play it. I hate them when I’m in anything else. It definitely has a little too much of a few too many good things.

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I agree it is not OP enough to warrant a Nerf...with the RADAR in two ROF demons and the flame inducing Zao, getting linger range torps  I feel this is a bad thing,,, it is likely the best tier ten ship pound for pound but it is a mediocre all around versatile ship where the others have a very good NICHE in a certain area...

besides, I LOVE mine and want to see it stay the same... even though I have been playing the Zao more and had better results in ranked with it getting to R8 faster with it than the hindy...

Edited by neptunes_wrath
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Perhaps I'm a ninth-order [edited], but I'm not seeing how the Hindenburg is overperforming in the stats. But lets have a look...

 

Between the six tier 10 cruisers on the NA server, according to WoWS Stats & Numbers, the Hindenburg is: 

  • WR: 3rd, 50.05 per cent (beaten by Henri IV (50.15%) and Moskva (50.28%).  Seriously, an almost exactly 50% WR is the very definition of balanced.  
  • Damage: 3rd, 77728 (beaten by Zao (77783), and Henri IV (79323).  There is a step-change in damage where Henri, Hinden and Zao do more than 75k whilst the other three do less. But they're buffing the Zao...
  • Played: 2nd, at 987k (beaten by Des Moines at 1.3 million), whereas the Moskva has only 492k.  

But lets face it, really only the RU server matters for WG balans purposes:

  • WR: 4th, at 51.18 per cent (beaten by Minotaur (51.41%), Henri IV (52.14%) and Des Moines (52.56%)).  It beats Moskva by only 0.18 per cent.
  • Damage: 2nd, at 79827 (beaten only by Henri IV at 83209).  Again, there is a step-change in damage as per the NA server. 
  • Played: 2nd, at 1.1 million (beaten by Zao at 1.3 million).  Moskva is 1.039 million.  Again, not a huge difference.  

So, the story is not materially different (even though cruisers are generally performing better on RU - perhaps due to the different meta). 

 

I dont see any overperformance.  Tbh, they'd need to withdraw ships like Guilo Cesare and nerf ships like Khab wwaaaaay more than nerfing the Hindenburg. 

 

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I'm going to see what the ship plays like with the changes before making any judgements. As I said in another thread, with my reload mod, the change might not even be an issue.

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2 minutes ago, UltimateNewbie said:

Perhaps I'm a ninth-order [edited], but I'm not seeing how the Hindenburg is overperforming in the stats. But lets have a look...

 

Between the six tier 10 cruisers on the NA server, according to WoWS Stats & Numbers, the Hindenburg is: 

  • WR: 3rd, 50.05 per cent (beaten by Henri IV (50.15%) and Moskva (50.28%).  Seriously, an almost exactly 50% WR is the very definition of balanced.  
  • Damage: 3rd, 77728 (beaten by Zao (77783), and Henri IV (79323).  There is a step-change in damage where Henri, Hinden and Zao do more than 75k whilst the other three do less. But they're buffing the Zao...
  • Played: 2nd, at 987k (beaten by Des Moines at 1.3 million), whereas the Moskva has only 492k.  

But lets face it, really only the RU server matters for WG balans purposes:

  • WR: 4th, at 51.18 per cent (beaten by Minotaur (51.41%), Henri IV (52.14%) and Des Moines (52.56%)).  It beats Moskva by only 0.18 per cent.
  • Damage: 2nd, at 79827 (beaten only by Henri IV at 83209).  Again, there is a step-change in damage as per the NA server. 
  • Played: 2nd, at 1.1 million (beaten by Zao at 1.3 million).  Moskva is 1.039 million.  Again, not a huge difference.  

So, the story is not materially different (even though cruisers are generally performing better on RU - perhaps due to the different meta). 

 

I dont see any overperformance.  Tbh, they'd need to withdraw ships like Guilo Cesare and nerf ships like Khab wwaaaaay more than nerfing the Hindenburg. 

 

Yes going by stats in Randoms it would look like Hindenburg needs a buff. It does well in Ranked and Clan battles because it counters the vastly OP Radar.

If there was a nerf to Radar then the Hindenburg would need a nerf.

On a related note the Legendary upgrade seems like complete garbage unless you have a mental condition that prevents you from using concealment while your damage control comes off cooldown.

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59 minutes ago, Seniorious said:

German cruisers are meant to be AP bastards, so no, that'd be ridiculous. You'd have to give the Germans something in return, otherwise they'd just be flat out weak. It wouldn't be unreasonable to buff the AP characteristics. Besides, the AP already does significant damage, which is why it has the moniker BB Hindenberg. The deal with German cruisers having 1/4th pen HE with weak alpha and high AP alpha but high bounce angles means they're very situational or tactical as you say. To suggest the nerf of a ship/shell just because it's a 'newbie trap' is unfounded. Besides, those 203mm guns are the same as on the Hipper, Eugen, and Roon. That means nerfing all three, because why on earth would a T10 have weaker guns than a T8? 

How are they "meant" to be AP bastards? It was the buff that they got pre-release, but that didn't make the ships good or useful. Hindenburg was the worst T10 by a huge margin(similar to old New Orleans) for a long time until the 1/4 HE buff, whereupon she suddenly became highly competitive. And the obvious reason for that is that their AP is a newbie trap, because it has poor pen stats relative to USN 8" AP, VMF 180mm+ AP, or IJN 20.3cm/55 AP(same bounce stats as other AP except USN). This is an invisible and huge downside to the ships AP, especially combined with their long detection range meaning they tend to fight from further away. The Germans can't function as ships using their AP anyways, so rewarding them for it isn't good design. Especially Yorck… every time I see a Yorck fire AP I feel sad, because it is a singularly cruel thing to give Yorck high AP damage and completely trash pen.

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1 hour ago, Aetreus said:

How are they "meant" to be AP bastards? It was the buff that they got pre-release, but that didn't make the ships good or useful. Hindenburg was the worst T10 by a huge margin(similar to old New Orleans) for a long time until the 1/4 HE buff, whereupon she suddenly became highly competitive. And the obvious reason for that is that their AP is a newbie trap, because it has poor pen stats relative to USN 8" AP, VMF 180mm+ AP, or IJN 20.3cm/55 AP(same bounce stats as other AP except USN). This is an invisible and huge downside to the ships AP, especially combined with their long detection range meaning they tend to fight from further away. The Germans can't function as ships using their AP anyways, so rewarding them for it isn't good design. Especially Yorck… every time I see a Yorck fire AP I feel sad, because it is a singularly cruel thing to give Yorck high AP damage and completely trash pen.

Nerfing the AP damage but buffing the penetration would be a welcome change but I doubt that will happen.

A change that is a nerf in Competitive but a buff in Randoms is what they really need but I'm not sure that exists.

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I don't think Hindenburg should be nerfed, but the nerf isn't big enough to turn the ship from good to irrelevant. With the reload mods, you will have what ? 8.9 sec reload ? Yes it's not Moksva 8 sec reload but it still pretty good.

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This nerf is not enough. It's reload should go up as high as 13.5s. It's base concealment should also be increased by a full 1km. It's citadel also needs to be more readily accessible. It should also be given another 50m of turn circle radius. Honestly, this is the most obnoxious ship in all of T9+T10 bracket.

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7 hours ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

I disagree with this one. I don't think the ship is overperforming to anything close to the amount that would require a nerf.

Hindenburg is sitting in 3rd place (out of 7) in about every category among Tier 10 cruisers. K/D, WR, avg damage, etc.) In one, it was tied for 2nd. (can't seem to dig this up on WoWs-Numbers.com, has it joined warships.today among the broken?)

Minotaur and Des Moines bringing up the rear in about every category.

WG's solution: Nerf the Hindenburg

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1 hour ago, Aiser50 said:

This nerf is not enough. It's reload should go up as high as 13.5s. It's base concealment should also be increased by a full 1km. It's citadel also needs to be more readily accessible. It should also be given another 50m of turn circle radius. Honestly, this is the most obnoxious ship in all of T9+T10 bracket.

While they are at it increase top speed to 38 knots and decrease turning circle to 600 meters. It needs another 15k health and 50mm deck so it is competitive with Moskva. It should also have radar since everybody else does.

 

 

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9 hours ago, MorbidGamer said:

It's a good solid ship. Shame they are messing with it. I vote no.

WG brings in 2 Roo-Shun abominations that they try to pass off as Cruisers and then WG wants to nerf one of the REAL Cruisers that's capable of countering them. Coincidence right?

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I think people who are quoting stats are missing the point.

They aren't balancing for randoms. They are balancing for CW. Right now Hindenberg is the dominant CA in CW. Its able to push a Des Moines, can pen the Moskvas 50mm with 3 extra guns on an angle the Moskva cant get AP pens, and competently played has no issues with the others. Only the Zao makes it think twice, sorta. That at the Yammy/Republique that forces it to angle and dodge more.

I don't know why it doesnt do better in randoms. Some sort of residual problem from early days? Probably just because the other ships have radar to anchor their win rate in an environment that doesnt assume DD drivers know how to mitigate radar. Also probably because it isnt as much of a straight damage farmer as a Zao or Henri. It pushes good. It does damage good and doesnt die easy. It has favorable matchups into most of the cruisers.

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People are crying that Hindenburg's base reload is going to go from 10 seconds with 12 guns to 11 seconds?  Really?

DywrZiB.gif

 

Meanwhile Buffalo has 13 seconds with more troublesome shell behavior at range.

 

Hindenburg is still going to be a spammer.

Her shells will still behave nicely in flight.

She'll still be setting fires.

Her HE shells will still pen reliably.

Her AP will still punish people.

She still will have tons of torpedoes that make her lethal in short range.

She'll still have her trademark protection.

She'll still have her AA.

She'll still have her Tier X German Cruiser Hydro.

 

LOL there's nothing to worry about here!

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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14 hours ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

Yes going by stats in Randoms it would look like Hindenburg needs a buff. It does well in Ranked and Clan battles because it counters the vastly OP Radar.

If there was a nerf to Radar then the Hindenburg would need a nerf.
 

What does radar have to do with anything?

The Hindenburg does well in competitive modes because it has the highest "practical" DPM of any cruiser in the game and is a massive force multiplier.  The Hindenburg is raw fire power incarnate and a pair of them counters what ever they chose too shoot at.  The fact the Hindenburg is popular in competitive modes despite not having radar is evidence of its strength.  

I didn't think the Hindenburg was in desperate need of nerfing, but I do think it's borderline too powerful and I can't really bring myself to logically disagree with this change.  

*edit

And this is coming from a person who plays Hindenburg in Hurricane league.

Edited by yashma

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It's already nerfed because a Cruiser is no good without radar apparently by some.

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2 hours ago, yashma said:

What does radar have to do with anything?

The Hindenburg does well in competitive modes because it has the highest "practical" DPM of any cruiser in the game and is a massive force multiplier.  The Hindenburg is raw fire power incarnate and a pair of them counters what ever they chose too shoot at.  The fact the Hindenburg is popular in competitive modes despite not having radar is evidence of its strength.  

I didn't think the Hindenburg was in desperate need of nerfing, but I do think it's borderline too powerful and I can't really bring myself to logically disagree with this change.  

*edit

And this is coming from a person who plays Hindenburg in Hurricane league.

The small advantage only kicks in vs the deck of a small number of ships and in exchange it has terrible penetration with it's AP. As I said it does well in Competitive but they should look for a change that doesn't nerf it in Randoms.

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3 minutes ago, CaptainTeddybear said:

The small advantage only kicks in vs the deck of a small number of ships and in exchange it has terrible penetration with it's AP. As I said it does well in Competitive but they should look for a change that doesn't nerf it in Randoms.

I wasn't talking about the Hindenburg's 1/4 HE pen...I was talking about all the other advantages the Hindenburg has.  Fantastic DPM, great turret angles, good shell arcs, long range, good armor respectable handling and the 1/4 pen is just the icing on the cake.  

Like I said I didn't think the Hindenburg was in desperate need of nerfing, but as an owner of all Tier 10 cruisers, I do think the Hindenburg was a cut above the rest of them...*for randoms and competitive.  

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Hindy was considered too strong?  News to me.  I never was scared of them.

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Disagree with the nerf, if you wanted you could adjust it's fire chance if that is their problem with the ship.  I think the ship is solid but not overpowering.  It doesn't make bad players better, but it rewards smart play.  It may be the best balanced and designed ship in the game.

 

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6 hours ago, yashma said:

Fantastic DPM, great turret angles, good shell arcs, long range, good armor respectable handling and the 1/4 pen is just the icing on the cake.  
 

All the Tier 10 Cruisers have most of those, in some cases better than Hindenburg. The good thing about Hindy is it is reasonably good at all of them except maybe handling.

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Let me get this straight.  Wargaming is considering nerfing a ship that is not the fastest, doesn't have the highest HP, highest rate of fire or longest gun range.  Has very short range torpedoes, has the slowest speed and worse HE of its tier.  Perhaps Wargaming should try to buff what is "wrong" with the other tier 10 cruisers.  The win rate across the entire spectrum of WOWS is usually 2% to 4%.  (Except for the Russian monster's)  Looks like you've done a good job  of providing ships that fit different styles of play.  Quit trying to micro manage how your customers decide what ships we want to play.

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On 6/7/2018 at 4:36 PM, KiyoSenkan said:

If they're going to nerf "Battleship" Hindenberg, than they should also nerf "battleship" Moskva, "Battleship" Konstadt, and "Battleship" Stalingrad.

Nyet, comrade.

Is Russian game, yes?

 

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