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Grand_Admiral_Murrel

Grand Admiral Donitz and the U-Boat, in-game please!!!

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What if Wargaming were to introduce submarines to the game, kind of like the French BB and the American cruiser arc, with the end reward being Grand Admiral Donitz, the man who got the whole u-boat scene underway? The possibilities would be endless. They wouldn't be overpowered, as they would be prone to hydroacoustic search and radar (when surfaced), and their speed would make them the slowest vehicle in the game at higher tiers. There could be a limited dive time, as well as a very small aerial spotting range. A simple strategy could be sailing into a cap, where a dd could lay a smoke screen when the sub has to surface. The wolf pack divisions would be hilariously cool. 

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Brilliant!!!!

Also there should be a reward...no an honor for Post Of The Year.  I would nominate Grand Admiral Murrel for the POTY.

Edited by Toxic_Potato

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Okay, someone reset the clock!  Now zero days again since the last submarines should be in the game post.

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Submarine thread detected!

 

Image result for depth charge gif

Edited by Avenge_December_7

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Someone please add that WoWs no submarine video, I am on my phone

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Seriously OP? Seriously?

Please reset the clock now.

 

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23 minutes ago, Grand_Admiral_Murrel said:

What if Wargaming were to introduce submarines to the game, kind of like the French BB and the American cruiser arc, with the end reward being Grand Admiral Donitz, the man who got the whole u-boat scene underway?  

With the introduction of Donitz I suspect World Of Warships would be banned in many EU nations. If we went down that road of subs, I would suggest Gunther Prien might be a more suitable figurehead.

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4 minutes ago, MG1962 said:

With the introduction of Donitz I suspect World Of Warships would be banned in many EU nations. If we went down that road of subs, I would suggest Gunther Prien might be a more suitable figurehead.

Fair enough, wasn't too sure. 

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So let's see if I had a nickel for every time someone started a thread about SUBs in game.:cap_yes:

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If you want the ability to sneak around at an abysmally slow speed while concealed for short periods of time, you should just get the Perth.

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1 minute ago, CorradoG60 said:

So let's see if I had a nickel for every time someone started a thread about SUBs in game.:cap_yes:

Subs, MM, radar, etc.

Iozj.gif

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It really is too bad that the old "Official Submarine Thread" got canned oh so long ago...  It had detailed discussion and analysis of the pros and cons of attempting to include submarines.  With very few exceptions the consensus was a resounding "no" based on issues like their speed, weapons load outs, survivability and their lack of a proper place in fleet on fleet warfare.

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How fortunate that I keep stuff around...  The following is information from things like historical analysis, developer Q&A and the discussion from the old "Official Submarine Thread".  Please feel free to rebut the various points and explain how they could/should be included in the game.  Also, please suggest a tech tree (one nation would be sufficient) that is both viable and sensible in terms of being competitive that follows the WG concepts in terms of improved ability between tiers.

Now, the points from the old days:

~ Wargaming has stated ship speeds will be close to historical, the surfaced and submerged speeds of submarines of the era are incompatible with the speeds of the surface vessels and the map sizes (with a few exceptions).

~ Not all surface ships have sonar (ASDIC), nor do all surface ships carry Anti-Submarine Weapons. (Editors Note: This creates a hole in the "rock, paper, scissors approach Wargaming likes to use for their games.)

~ Submerged submarines have potential immunity against a wide range of vessels.

~ Historically, submarines were not direct participants in fleet engagements, and WoWS is centered on fleet engagement.

~ Submarine torpedoes have relatively short ranges, thus the submarine would have to be very close range to fire, a task it is unlikely to accomplish due to low speed if submerged and hull fragility if surfaced.

~ Torpedoes have been described as running a straight course; the likelihood of obtaining a hit at anything other than very close range is extremely low.

~ The game engine has been described as not having an “underwater world” that is compatible with vessels traveling below the surface.

Submarines are extremely fragile; any penetrating hit robs a submarine of the ability to submerge (with some very few real world exceptions).

~ Submerged submarines are easily detected by aircraft unless they submerge to depths greater than periscope depth or are in very cloudy or murky waters (Less than 100 feet and aircraft can get a visual, even deeper than that in some waters).

~ Anti-Submarine Weapons: Depth charges are the most common weapon used against submarines, these devices are not aimed per se, they are launched from specialized mounts or rolled over the stern and set to explode at a preset depth, so a submarine is not directly targetable by this weapon, you instead must target an area and lay a pattern.

~ Anti-Submarine Weapons: Hedgehogs (and similar devices) are again not aimed weapons, they are area weapons, but can be fired ahead of a ship before losing sonar/ASDIC contact with the submarine. These devices are contact fused, but carry a much smaller payload than a depth charge.

~ Reload times: Per the Q&A we are looking at roughly 45 seconds to a minute to reload a single torpedo tube. Such a slow reload time would severely handicap the ability of a submarine to perform if it somehow did manage to get into range with its rather low speed. If that is on a per tube basis instead of the launcher as a whole, the reload is even longer).

~ Many early submarines (remember the period covered is roughly 1906 to the mid 1950’s) lacked a sufficient number of torpedo tubes and torpedoes to be a substantial threat. (U-1, 1906, 1 tube, 3 torpedoes; U-19, 1910, 4 tubes, 6 torpedoes)

~ Considering the accelerated reload times, most submarines lack a sufficient number of torpedoes to effectively engage in combat (not enough reloads).

~ Considering that Developer Q&A that states all torpedoes in a battery fire together a submarine would be completely disarmed (except of the other end of the ship in the case of submarines with bow and stern tubes) between salvos and would have very few potential salvos over the course of a match unless each tube is treated as a completely separate launcher (which would take away the ability to fire a proper spread).

~ View range at sea is a factor of elevation. The higher the point one is observing from, the greater the distance to the horizon one can see. Submarines using a periscope would have a very short view range, approximately 6km to the horizon if the scope is 10 feet above sea level (which is higher than the periscope would normally be raised), compared to a Battleship which due to increased mast height can get a visual on a target 10km or more distant.

 

 

Some Examples From the Developer Q&A and FAQ Regarding Submarine Exclusion:

~ Q: Will you have submarines in the game?
A: No, because submarines are quite vulnerable, when not underground. So there won't be any player controlled submarines in the game.

~ Q: After the testing is done do you expect Patrol boats(PT and Eboats), submarines, and destroyer escorts?
A: No. No U boats, no PT boats, no patrol boats. Our game is about big ships.

~ 2. will submarines be integrated as well?
2. No

~ Do submarines have been completely deleted from game or may be implemented at the distant future?
There won't be subs in our game.

~ 1.) I know from several different threads and some of the already asked questions that Subs will be not in the game but noone has asked why? so why are Subs not being implement is it because of mechanics or that WG doesnt see them as fitting a combat role (on the latter reason i might want to say that WG seems to like implement implausible things into games and make them work i.e. the Maus) and please dont flame me for historical accuracy, in what naval battle in history were their ships of multiple nations fighting an exact equal number of ships of the same mixed nations, were Subs used as combat ships no, were they capable yes.
1) Subs are out due to their extremely low submerged speed and vulnerability.

~ will there be subs or destroyers?
there will be no subs whatsoever 
 

Questions Related to Submarines

Will submarines be integrated as well?

No - Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:48 AM
 

 

Why do you not want the submarines in WoWs?

Because submarines of that era are strategic anti-supply weapons, not the part of naval combat. - Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:56 AM - EU
 

 

I know from several different threads and some of the already asked questions that subs will be not in the game but noone has asked why? so why are subs not being implement is it because of mechanics or that WG doesn't see them as fitting a combat role?

Subs are out due to their extremely low submerged speed and vulnerability. - Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:44 AM

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31 minutes ago, DerKrampus said:

giphy.gif

That is why they are strapped in when they use that kind of life boat.

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Excellent info, I don't disagree with any of it, except for the close range torpedo bit. The Germans and British used torpedoes capable of maneuvering to a target. Something like an "ear" that could pick up the noise made by a vessel and modify its course to (hopefully) hit the target. The true success rate was pretty low, and there are cases documented where u-boats sank due to friendly torps. 

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10 minutes ago, MM2ss said:

How fortunate that I keep stuff around...  The following is information from things like historical analysis, developer Q&A and the discussion from the old "Official Submarine Thread".  Please feel free to rebut the various points and explain how they could/should be included in the game.  Also, please suggest a tech tree (one nation would be sufficient) that is both viable and sensible in terms of being competitive that follows the WG concepts in terms of improved ability between tiers.

Now, the points from the old days:

~ Wargaming has stated ship speeds will be close to historical, the surfaced and submerged speeds of submarines of the era are incompatible with the speeds of the surface vessels and the map sizes (with a few exceptions).

~ Not all surface ships have sonar (ASDIC), nor do all surface ships carry Anti-Submarine Weapons. (Editors Note: This creates a hole in the "rock, paper, scissors approach Wargaming likes to use for their games.)

~ Submerged submarines have potential immunity against a wide range of vessels.

~ Historically, submarines were not direct participants in fleet engagements, and WoWS is centered on fleet engagement.

~ Submarine torpedoes have relatively short ranges, thus the submarine would have to be very close range to fire, a task it is unlikely to accomplish due to low speed if submerged and hull fragility if surfaced.

~ Torpedoes have been described as running a straight course; the likelihood of obtaining a hit at anything other than very close range is extremely low.

~ The game engine has been described as not having an “underwater world” that is compatible with vessels traveling below the surface.

Submarines are extremely fragile; any penetrating hit robs a submarine of the ability to submerge (with some very few real world exceptions).

~ Submerged submarines are easily detected by aircraft unless they submerge to depths greater than periscope depth or are in very cloudy or murky waters (Less than 100 feet and aircraft can get a visual, even deeper than that in some waters).

~ Anti-Submarine Weapons: Depth charges are the most common weapon used against submarines, these devices are not aimed per se, they are launched from specialized mounts or rolled over the stern and set to explode at a preset depth, so a submarine is not directly targetable by this weapon, you instead must target an area and lay a pattern.

~ Anti-Submarine Weapons: Hedgehogs (and similar devices) are again not aimed weapons, they are area weapons, but can be fired ahead of a ship before losing sonar/ASDIC contact with the submarine. These devices are contact fused, but carry a much smaller payload than a depth charge.

~ Reload times: Per the Q&A we are looking at roughly 45 seconds to a minute to reload a single torpedo tube. Such a slow reload time would severely handicap the ability of a submarine to perform if it somehow did manage to get into range with its rather low speed. If that is on a per tube basis instead of the launcher as a whole, the reload is even longer).

~ Many early submarines (remember the period covered is roughly 1906 to the mid 1950’s) lacked a sufficient number of torpedo tubes and torpedoes to be a substantial threat. (U-1, 1906, 1 tube, 3 torpedoes; U-19, 1910, 4 tubes, 6 torpedoes)

~ Considering the accelerated reload times, most submarines lack a sufficient number of torpedoes to effectively engage in combat (not enough reloads).

~ Considering that Developer Q&A that states all torpedoes in a battery fire together a submarine would be completely disarmed (except of the other end of the ship in the case of submarines with bow and stern tubes) between salvos and would have very few potential salvos over the course of a match unless each tube is treated as a completely separate launcher (which would take away the ability to fire a proper spread).

~ View range at sea is a factor of elevation. The higher the point one is observing from, the greater the distance to the horizon one can see. Submarines using a periscope would have a very short view range, approximately 6km to the horizon if the scope is 10 feet above sea level (which is higher than the periscope would normally be raised), compared to a Battleship which due to increased mast height can get a visual on a target 10km or more distant.

 

 

Some Examples From the Developer Q&A and FAQ Regarding Submarine Exclusion:

~ Q: Will you have submarines in the game?
A: No, because submarines are quite vulnerable, when not underground. So there won't be any player controlled submarines in the game.

~ Q: After the testing is done do you expect Patrol boats(PT and Eboats), submarines, and destroyer escorts?
A: No. No U boats, no PT boats, no patrol boats. Our game is about big ships.

~ 2. will submarines be integrated as well?
2. No

~ Do submarines have been completely deleted from game or may be implemented at the distant future?
There won't be subs in our game.

~ 1.) I know from several different threads and some of the already asked questions that Subs will be not in the game but noone has asked why? so why are Subs not being implement is it because of mechanics or that WG doesnt see them as fitting a combat role (on the latter reason i might want to say that WG seems to like implement implausible things into games and make them work i.e. the Maus) and please dont flame me for historical accuracy, in what naval battle in history were their ships of multiple nations fighting an exact equal number of ships of the same mixed nations, were Subs used as combat ships no, were they capable yes.
1) Subs are out due to their extremely low submerged speed and vulnerability.

~ will there be subs or destroyers?
there will be no subs whatsoever 
 

Questions Related to Submarines

Will submarines be integrated as well?

No - Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:48 AM
 

 

Why do you not want the submarines in WoWs?

Because submarines of that era are strategic anti-supply weapons, not the part of naval combat. - Posted 03 September 2012 - 09:56 AM - EU
 

 

I know from several different threads and some of the already asked questions that subs will be not in the game but noone has asked why? so why are subs not being implement is it because of mechanics or that WG doesn't see them as fitting a combat role?

Subs are out due to their extremely low submerged speed and vulnerability. - Posted 14 January 2013 - 02:44 AM

Quit using facts, it is a very simple thing to put subs in the game. Just ask all the pro-sub posters and they can't be wrong.

The only things in your post I disagree with are these two things.

" ~ Considering the accelerated reload times, most submarines lack a sufficient number of torpedoes to effectively engage in combat (not enough reloads).

~ Considering that Developer Q&A that states all torpedoes in a battery fire together a submarine would be completely disarmed (except of the other end of the ship in the case of submarines with bow and stern tubes) between salvos and would have very few potential salvos over the course of a match unless each tube is treated as a completely separate launcher (which would take away the ability to fire a proper spread). "

Since we do not worry about ammo supplies the first is not a problem. On the second submarine torpedo tubes are individually a battery so single fire would be an option.

Neither of those quibbles make subs viable in this game.

6 minutes ago, Grand_Admiral_Murrel said:

Excellent info, I don't disagree with any of it, except for the close range torpedo bit. The Germans and British used torpedoes capable of maneuvering to a target. Something like an "ear" that could pick up the noise made by a vessel and modify its course to (hopefully) hit the target. The true success rate was pretty low, and there are cases documented where u-boats sank due to friendly torps. 

Those were late war weapons and each sub only carried a few with most of the loadout being standard torpedoes. Like the subs that actually had good speed they are the exception.

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1 minute ago, BrushWolf said:

Quit using facts, it is a very simple thing to put subs in the game. Just ask all the pro-sub posters and they can't be wrong.

The only things in your post I disagree with are these two things.

" ~ Considering the accelerated reload times, most submarines lack a sufficient number of torpedoes to effectively engage in combat (not enough reloads).

~ Considering that Developer Q&A that states all torpedoes in a battery fire together a submarine would be completely disarmed (except of the other end of the ship in the case of submarines with bow and stern tubes) between salvos and would have very few potential salvos over the course of a match unless each tube is treated as a completely separate launcher (which would take away the ability to fire a proper spread). "

Since we do not worry about ammo supplies the first is not a problem. On the second submarine torpedo tubes are individually a battery so single fire would be an option.

Neither of those quibbles make subs viable in this game.

Those were late war weapons and each sub only carried a few with most of the loadout being standard torpedoes. Like the subs that actually had good speed they are the exception.

Actually, the British were using them at the end of the first World War. 

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Just now, Grand_Admiral_Murrel said:

Actually, the British were using them at the end of the first World War. 

Link please, I hadn't heard of this.

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