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Exciton8964

My Ranked Experience: Radar cruiser not OP at all

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I have finally ranked out this season after a tough grind of 169 games.

I have mostly played the following 3 ships: Moskva, Des Moines and Hindenburg. According to many, radar is OP and needs nerf. However, I don't feel that way at all during my ranked grind. Both Moskva and Des Moines with their powerful radars are still extremely limited. It is when I finally switched to Hindenburg, I started to progress in R5 bracket.

Before I reached R5, I was enjoying an easy ride with Moskva and Des Moines. Cruisers and DDs played carelessly so they were very easy to punish. BBs were not very accurate with their shots so I could get away by engaging them on open water.

Starting R5, however, I feel I have very little control of the flow of the game. Most of the time, I am stuck behind islands. It is common to have 3+ BB games where you get punished hard for just being spotted. There was a time my Moskva ate 30k damage from stern from a Montana salvo 20km+ away. Des Moines is even squishier and it is only safe to shoot when undetected(covered by island/smoke). Radar is strong but due to the limited positioning choice, you can't really shoot at your target. You rely on your BB and flanking cruisers to know their proper position to shoot those targets. In addition, you need them to protect your flank to be effective. If you happen to get teammates who only kite to the edge of the map and let the enemy push down your flank, you are pretty much a dead ship.

After switching to Hindenburg, I feel I have much better impact on the game from start to finish. At start of the game, if you know how to position, you will be able to shoot at a lot of camping cruisers and DDs behind island. Many of the islands DD like to hide behind shouldn't work at all if Hindenburgs know how to counter. It is easy for radar cruisers to hit radar button sitting behind island, but to really make a difference, you need players who actually know how to find the firing angle to shoot at them. Even better, you can blind shot those spots with spotter plane even w/o radar help. Then in mid game, you can either kite to lure enemy into bad position or push to create space for teammates. Radar cruisers don't have such capability.

Even in games where MM decides to give you no radar ship teammates, you can still talk with team and do coordinated pushes. In most ranked games, team doesn't set up well enough to defend against such pushes. You only need to surprise 1-2 enemy ships to create a positive K/D difference and snow ball from there. And guess what, to prevent such pushes, the best ships are also flanking cruisers and DDs, not those radar cruisers some of you consider OP.

I won't deny that radar is a powerful tool on Moskva and Des Moines. But I don't think it is OP because the ships carrying them are actually very limited. I haven't played Minotaur but I think that ship with radar also has her own limitations. I remember in one of my Des Moines games, I got blamed by a gearing player for not knowing how to position my ship because I couldn't solo kill a shima. He ignores all the facts that the moment you stick out your head to shoot DD, all enemy BB guns will be aimed at your direction. I feel these are the kind of DD players who think radar cruisers are OP and suggest things like radar shouldn't work through island. I honestly can't imaging playing DM or Moskva w/o island cover. They will be free food if radar gets nerfed like that.

 

 

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I had a very similar ride this season. I just ranked out 20 minutes ago. It took me a bit more... 491 games. Long grind to say the least. Had some games that were infuriating and had others that were incredible. 

1 that comes to mind was about 10 minutes in, our team was down a ship or 2 and we had only 1 cap, someone quarterbacked a play and we all moved at once, caught the opposing team off guard and crushed it in 60 seconds... Never had a reversal so strong and unified feeling before in any game I've played both in the real world or online. 

As for radar.... I played Des Moines. Its not overpowered frankly. The guns are floaty"" at beyond 10k when trying to zap a fleeing DD and frankly after Rank 5 most DD's are competent enough to be able to cause a radar deployment and then zip out of the range and when its on cool down come in and spot.  The other Item is the Minotaur, Des Moines and Moskva all have horrific citadels.. They can't take hits on the side... which makes them hard to back out of a gun fight.... So they're tricky when committing to a battle with out cover. 

With games with 1 or 2 BB's it really wasn't an issue, however the last few were 3 or 4 BB's per team and it sucked... I felt helpless..... Sorta like was it worth it for me to start firing and get zapped and hurt the team with point less or best to just wait and try to finish off a few boats in the latter phases of the round? 

 

Anyway good Post! 

 

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25 minutes ago, NorthernStrangler said:

I had a very similar ride this season. I just ranked out 20 minutes ago. It took me a bit more... 491 games. Long grind to say the least. Had some games that were infuriating and had others that were incredible. 

1 that comes to mind was about 10 minutes in, our team was down a ship or 2 and we had only 1 cap, someone quarterbacked a play and we all moved at once, caught the opposing team off guard and crushed it in 60 seconds... Never had a reversal so strong and unified feeling before in any game I've played both in the real world or online. 

As for radar.... I played Des Moines. Its not overpowered frankly. The guns are floaty"" at beyond 10k when trying to zap a fleeing DD and frankly after Rank 5 most DD's are competent enough to be able to cause a radar deployment and then zip out of the range and when its on cool down come in and spot.  The other Item is the Minotaur, Des Moines and Moskva all have horrific citadels.. They can't take hits on the side... which makes them hard to back out of a gun fight.... So they're tricky when committing to a battle with out cover. 

With games with 1 or 2 BB's it really wasn't an issue, however the last few were 3 or 4 BB's per team and it sucked... I felt helpless..... Sorta like was it worth it for me to start firing and get zapped and hurt the team with point less or best to just wait and try to finish off a few boats in the latter phases of the round? 

 

Anyway good Post! 

 

Congrats on ranking out.

Honestly, I don't think I will be able to rank out if I stick to Des Moines. I feel most the games, win/loss is totally in my teammates' hands. I tried my best to tell BBs and flanking cruisers where to position but they don't always listen.

The ship kinda amplifies your team's strength and weakness. If you push to take an aggressive position, your teammates need to cooperate as well. If they do, you can make enemy team really uncomfortable. If not, then you are just a sitting duck who can't accomplish anyting.

The best way to carry a game in Des Moines is probably creating close quarter 1v1 chances against DDs and cruisers. However, it is easier said than done. 

Edited by Exciton8964

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Here is one example I mentioned in my post where I got blamed by my Gearing teammate. I was the cruiser posting up on the west side of the ring-shaped capture point.

The gearing player told me he couldn't go up scouting because there is an enemy DM posting up and he refused to give me a smoke. So I was forced to reverse backward. Teammate cruiser and BB also kite deep because passive play by Gearing. As a result, enemy team GK+Hindy+shima easily pushed to our side.

I was focused by by GK and Hindy and also perma spotted by shima and force do dodge his torps. Then the Gearing blamed my positioning for not being able to kill enemy shima. One teammate even supported his argument because I was the first one died in the team...

passive team.PNG

Edited by Exciton8964

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Another example on mountain range.

You can radar spot behind island as a radar cruiser. However, you need friendly ships to position correctly to shoot at DD who hides behind island. Too many times, teammates failed to realize it and put your radar into complete waste.

At start of every game, I tell some teammate to go 9/10 line to get the firing angle and many times they don't listen. After I switched to Hindenburg, I took that position myself and punished enemy DD several times.

mountainrange.PNG

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One more example on north.

Some DD like to either rush or flank into the island at the east-side cap. A hindenburg on west flank can use spotter plane to lob shells onto that DD. Again, you need player who knows how to position to take advantage of that radar.

Also the slope edge on the north side is a terrible spot for radar ships to camp. That position can be easily countered by BBs taking 9 line. But many BBs seem allergic to take that position because it is too faraway from the centre. They seem to prefer to just shoot AP at enemy well-angled BBs.

north.PNG

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Too many DD players just blame their failure on radar w/o even understanding the weakness of radar ships.

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Which weakness is that? That you can't cap, radar, detect, and kill the enemy team yourself? 

Most radar cruisers blame their failure on their teammates without understanding what it takes to play a DD in ranked.

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20 minutes ago, Lensar said:

Which weakness is that? That you can't cap, radar, detect, and kill the enemy team yourself? 

Most radar cruisers blame their failure on their teammates without understanding what it takes to play a DD in ranked.

What a waste of time to write so much....Give some counter example next time if you want to prove otherwise.

The weakness is that you are extremely limited in your position with a given map. You are easily countered by flanking.

You try to control a key area with radar, but with a 2min CD. Even with radar spotting, you need teammates to know proper position to take advantage of it.

I wonder if you are the kind of player who thinks radar is an 'I win' button.

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15 minutes ago, Exciton8964 said:

The weakness is that you are extremely limited in your position with a given map.

If you decide to set up in the usual positions, sure. I've seen radar cruisers set up all over the place.

16 minutes ago, Exciton8964 said:

You are easily countered by flanking.

Well, um. Sure. But so is every other ship in the game. No one said a radar cruiser was a one-man army. Just that the side with the most radar cruisers has a huge advantage.

17 minutes ago, Exciton8964 said:

You try to control a key area with radar, but with a 2min CD. Even with radar spotting, you need teammates to know proper position to take advantage of it.

Again. I'm not sure what you were expecting.

Imagine what a DD does in ranked without teammates. Pretty much nothing. If a DD can spot the enemy radar cruiser, and live to talk about it, he's still gonna need teammates to shoot at it. 

Even a BB can't do it all alone. Other than hang in the back of the map and snipe to save their star, anything a BB does requires support from his teammates.

20 minutes ago, Exciton8964 said:

I wonder if you are the kind of player who thinks radar is an 'I win' button.

Not at all. Radar is a "you lose" button. It doesn't really reward the radar cruiser at all, all it does is punish a DD that happened to be within 10-12k when you mash that radar button.

You're upset because there are only certain places on the ranked maps where you can set up safely behind an island and still be in position to radar a cap. And then you complain because you're only safe there if the enemy doesn't flank around you to where you don't have cover of an island. 

Now imagine you're a DD. Specifically a shima. To do ANYTHING at all to contribute to the match, you either need to cap or you need to spot enemy ships. But you can do neither of those things from the safety of behind an island. You have to sail out in the open, in your ship with no armor and few hitpoints, with nothing at all between you and the enemy.

At any point, you could be spotted by an enemy DD. At which point, then entire enemy team on that flank opens fire on your low HP ship to try and sink you. Hopefully, your teammates are doing the same to their DD.

And if that wasn't enough, you not only have to worry about bumping into enemy DDs, you have radar cruisers that, with the simple push of a button, often from the safety of the other side of an island, will suddenly and without warning reveal you for all the world to see. And the best part is that there is nothing at all you can do about it. You have to sit there and let the enemy team repeatedly punch you in the face over and over, until you're able to turn your ship around and sail out of radar range, or the radar runs it's full duration. Well, or you get blown up.

So yes, no one thinks radar cruisers are one-man navys that get kraken every match. But you'll have to forgive those of us who feel absolutely zero sympathy for a ship that sometimes has to be worried about being flanked while in their little island hidey hole, or sometimes has to rely on teammates to help them kill the hapless DDs that are revealed by their radar.

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I played the Z-52 for most of the season and really struggled through rank 3 and 2. After two bad nights in a row and 20 games down the drain, I decided to play the Hindenburg instead and cruised to rank 1 easy. 

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3 hours ago, Lensar said:

If you decide to set up in the usual positions, sure. I've seen radar cruisers set up all over the place.

I have set up at unusual places as well. That is for better position to shoot at targets. They are worse for controlling points. This is a tradeoff I will never make if all teammates are set up correctly. You are simply less effective with less control on capture points.

3 hours ago, Lensar said:

Well, um. Sure. But so is every other ship in the game. No one said a radar cruiser was a one-man army. 

Not true. Did you see my reason for why Hindenburg is so much easier to rank out with. You are not afraid of flanking in these roaming cruisers and some BBs. On the contrary, they are direct counter to flanking. Zao is like the best ship to deal with that. DD is also good at that by keep them spotted and spread torpedo to mess up their advancing path.

In addition, DDs can smoke up friendly ships to make a lot of pushes fail.

3 hours ago, Lensar said:

Just that the side with the most radar cruisers has a huge advantage.

This is completely misconception and a common misconception. The more radar cruisers you have on a side, the less firepower you have. Radar cruiser's purpose is to deny capping. You are more likely to lose that side you stack up radar cruisers. 

3 hours ago, Lensar said:

Imagine what a DD does in ranked without teammates. Pretty much nothing. If a DD can spot the enemy radar cruiser, and live to talk about it, he's still gonna need teammates to shoot at it. 

Even a BB can't do it all alone. Other than hang in the back of the map and snipe to save their star, anything a BB does requires support from his teammates.

ell, you can't compare a DD spotting to radar spotting. DD spotting is perma spot as both Des Moines and Moskva has detection range bigger than radar range. The only counter to DD spotting is to have your own DD countering him. The only exception is Minotaur. I don't know that ship well enough. But I can see her being an effective DD counter. But even Minotaur has AP shells that can't do much damage to targets fleeing away.

And when did I say any ship can do the job alone? My argument is that radar ship impact is limited in ranked battle scenario. More limited than flanking cruiser or BBs. Perhaps also more limited than DDs as well, but that is not the main debate point.

Also, I don't know why you keep comparing radar cruiser to DDs. They are completely different animals. My original post is comparison within cruisers themselves, which I think is much more fair. When you argue that radar is OP, you have to compare radar cruisers to cruisers w/o radar, right?

3 hours ago, Lensar said:

Now imagine you're a DD. Specifically a shima. To do ANYTHING at all to contribute to the match, you either need to cap or you need to spot enemy ships. But you can do neither of those things from the safety of behind an island. You have to sail out in the open, in your ship with no armor and few hitpoints, with nothing at all between you and the enemy.

At any point, you could be spotted by an enemy DD. At which point, then entire enemy team on that flank opens fire on your low HP ship to try and sink you. Hopefully, your teammates are doing the same to their DD.

I never said DDs are easy to play. I know they are hard to play due to extreme high risk. But if you counter enemy DD successfully, then you do put your team at a good advantage. That is high risk, high reward. I would definitely consider some DDs risk level is a bit extreme like Shima. 

Radar cruiser's problem is completely different. Due to positional limitation, you are not contributing much outside of radar in early game. You can do more later on but it is extremely teammate dependent. You can't change the flow of the game yourself. You can only adapt to it in a radar cruiser. 

 

Edited by Exciton8964

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7 minutes ago, Feminist said:

I played the Z-52 for most of the season and really struggled through rank 3 and 2. After two bad nights in a row and 20 games down the drain, I decided to play the Hindenburg instead and cruised to rank 1 easy. 

I met you in game a couple of times, I think.

I had similar struggle with Des Moines at R3 for like 30 games and then I changed to Hindenburg and ranked out with ease.

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2 hours ago, Feminist said:

I played the Z-52 for most of the season and really struggled through rank 3 and 2. After two bad nights in a row and 20 games down the drain, I decided to play the Hindenburg instead and cruised to rank 1 easy. 

IIRC you were on the red team last night where your friendlyMino solo'd 2 DM's and Yamato on Mountain Range after one of you bumped off the Gearing (naturally, they all blamed us over in the west). That was my "done for the night" match :D

edit: ranked out the alt with some Z-52 play, but Premier League was mostly Conq and GK. Up to Rank 2 on this one with primarily Hindy and DM. I usually only play DM after a few matches of having utterly useless ones as teammates. "Trying a new spot guys" "I'll radar back here from the J line" "mah open water DM is best DM"

Edited by cheereereerios

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I had a similar experience.  I breezed to rank 5 with a nearly 70% win rate in my Des Moines, and then hit a wall.  The difference is I took a week off and then came back to try again. I found that with so many other players switching away from radar cruisers, I could actually make great progress just by virtue of being the only Des Moines on either team. Eventually people caught on and once the DM came back with a vengeance I hit another wall as I lost a lot of influence....so I finally switched to the Yammy and breezed through the last few stars.  

 

7 hours ago, Exciton8964 said:

Another example on mountain range.

7 hours ago, Exciton8964 said:

One more example on north.

I had one battle on Warrior's Path that really comes to mind.  We only had one DD, and he refused to go the contested cap.  I told him we needed him there to stop the enemy from caping, he responded, "don't worry we have the radar advantage, just radar him when he starts capping and we'll be fine".  Well, I radared him alright, and then watched him for 56 seconds just sitting there behind an island.  Needless to say the enemy got the cap for free, their DD got away with only a few scratches, we lost a cruiser who was desperately trying to push out wide enough get shots over the island.....and we ended up losing decisively as we were forced to push into the enemy's defensive positions.  

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