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Komrade_Rylo

T8 Cleveland is Amazing

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4 hours ago, Taylor3006 said:

LOL ok...... Will check the "agenda" posted in the POD for each ship. 

If WoWS was a naval game, this may come in handy. The truth is it is a FPS with a naval feel. The Cleveland requires too many things to go right before it can do the basic function of any combat ship. Combat. Killing. Surviving. If there are plenty of islands to hang close to and everyone has your flank and someone else keeps the enemy spotted for you while you shoot from safety, yeah the Cleveland is decent. Unfortunately not all those things happen in every game. From the looks of comments here and on Reddit in regards to the new Cleveland, I am not alone in thinking this. 

 

I completely disagree. I think it has the tools to be a Swiss army knife in pretty much any situation. The ships flexibility is why I love it so much and find it an absolute joy to play.

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52 minutes ago, Komrade_Rylo said:

I completely disagree. I think it has the tools to be a Swiss army knife in pretty much any situation. The ships flexibility is why I love it so much and find it an absolute joy to play.

Ehh ok, like I said, not my experience. I find that it's absolute lack of flexibility to be the Cleveland's problem. It is a one trick pony, hide behind a rock and shoot over it. That strategy requires someone else doing the spotting and other people holding your flanks. You know, doing all the dirty work. I imagine some people do enjoy it, as I said before, I just find that style boring and unremarkable.

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The criticism for Cleveland stems from people looking at her like she's an open water fighter.  She's sh*t for that.  Not with those floaty shells and range.  Kutuzov, Prinz Eugen, Admiral Hipper, Mogami, Atago, Charles Martel are all infinitely superior in that capacity.

 

Where Cleveland comes out ahead is in contesting the caps and affecting the Destroyer game.  The other Cruisers I mentioned earlier do not like closing range and playing in or very near the caps.  They don't have the tools to expose the Destroyers or smoked up ships in those caps.  Hipper and Prinz have great Tier VIII German Hydro, but that's not the same level of reach and danger it presents to DDs in a cap the way Radar does.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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Cleveland is in most situation, food for cruiser and BB. Can't tank nor can it kite in any way. Sure, it can do quite a bit of damage if everybody ignore you but... That's the case for any ships. 

I quite frankly saw 1-2 situation where It would be better than a chappy and those require a specific map and enemy team composition.

The AA is nothing to talk about. Not mediocre nor amazing. Same level as a chappy. so no reason to change over for that.

 

It's amusing, the utility are suppose to make it a versatile ship and yet, it's a very inflexible ship gameplay wise. Find an island or a smoke buddy. Hope people can dangerously close while never looking at you.

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2 minutes ago, Revanmug said:

The AA is nothing to talk about. Not mediocre nor amazing. Same level as a chappy. so no reason to change over for that.

You're not even talking about the right ship if you're saying that.

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23 minutes ago, Revanmug said:

Cleveland is in most situation, food for cruiser and BB. Can't tank nor can it kite in any way. Sure, it can do quite a bit of damage if everybody ignore you but... That's the case for any ships. 

I quite frankly saw 1-2 situation where It would be better than a chappy and those require a specific map and enemy team composition.

The AA is nothing to talk about. Not mediocre nor amazing. Same level as a chappy. so no reason to change over for that.

 

It's amusing, the utility are suppose to make it a versatile ship and yet, it's a very inflexible ship gameplay wise. Find an island or a smoke buddy. Hope people can dangerously close while never looking at you.

 

It and Baltimore have the best aa of the t8 cruisers, except Cleveland always has df, where as Baltimore has to choose between df and hydro

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22 minutes ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You're not even talking about the right ship if you're saying that.

Correct.  I just played in ranked and popped air defense when the CV focused on me, and shot down 5 planes in less than a minute.  

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Cleveland's AA is pretty good, but she's still bested by the Kutuzov and Baltimore in regards to the mid to long ranged AA DPS. Having over a third of her AA DPS in the short ranged 20mm guns holds her back a little since they're unaffected by DFAA.

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2 hours ago, HazeGrayUnderway said:

You're not even talking about the right ship if you're saying that.

 

2 hours ago, Komrade_Rylo said:

 

It and Baltimore have the best aa of the t8 cruisers, except Cleveland always has df, where as Baltimore has to choose between df and hydro

With both AFT and AA gun Mod 2.

T8DPS.png.32014024e529bfef9a018d7904f9cda1.png

* I forgot to change the Mogami and Atago mid range. It's much shorter but we all knew they were trash anyway*

The only way to make the Cleveland "amazing" is by factoring the mostly useless close range AA guns. And no, the Chapayev ain't that far from the Cleveland that I would consider it a major difference.

As for the DF vs Hydro. I would never use Hydro over DF since you have radar on both Chapayev and Baltimore. Torps can be defeated by just playing smartly. A CV strike cannot be defeated without DF.

Edited by Revanmug
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9 hours ago, crzyhawk said:

The only problem with Cleveland is the low velocity shells.  She's certainly a T8 cruiser.  If WG would fix the drag values on the AP shells, the ship would do just fine.

I mean technically, Cleveland has an error of something like 0.15 excess shell drag, resulting in the loss of 750 meters of maximum range and a whole 0.5 seconds of flight time(at 17km, a 3% increase). At an estimate that would translate into around 0.5km of useful range. This is technically, technically a thing. It's not a useful or meaningful thing, but I know there's a certain populace that cares an awful lot about having the most perfect, technically accurate USN shell drag possible, and for those people yes, there is an issue here. Presuming our reverse engineered drag model is actually perfectly accurate.

 

For reference, if you buffed Cleveland's shell drag to the ridiculous and still probably due to bad data sourcing 0.2353 that is the best shell drag in the game, you would have made the gun equal to the VMF 6" gun, which has a whole 2 second lower flight time, making it worse than every 8" gun except for the awful one on Yorck. Yes, the USN CA gun has better arcs than all the 6" guns- but people still complain about that too. 

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9 hours ago, inktomi19d said:

I’m not positive the shell velocity is a problem. I’ve been doing a lot of damage shooting over islands with it, which the low velocity helps with. The velocity isn’t so bad that I can’t hit DDs at 10-12 km, or that I can’t hit a BB's superstructure at 15 km.  As high-arc guns go, they seem to be in a sweet spot. 

They have a high skill floor, but high skill ceiling — they take practice to use well, but they are able to do things other guns can’t.

Her AP is a bit worthless, but I think that’s more because of the tier than because of the loft of the rounds — there just isn’t a lot that 6” AP is a threat to at tier 8. 

 

The new Cleveland was sure to be divisive. Real CLs trigger a lot of both love and hate in this game. Down at tier 6, Clevelands guns weren’t light compared to the competition, and her armor was pretty heavy, so she didn’t really behave like a light cruiser. 

What do you mean by real CL?  Any cruiser with guns smaller than 155mm are light cruisers.

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9 hours ago, inktomi19d said:

Her AP is a bit worthless, but I think that’s more because of the tier than because of the loft of the rounds — there just isn’t a lot that 6” AP is a threat to at tier 8.  

You could deck pen people... The 6" has the range to do it reliably with the spotter plane or T9/10 with the range module. Most same-tier cruisers wouldn't have much if any resistance- only the USN and sometimes France mount meaningful amounts of deck armor on cruisers. Battleships would I think have the internal space to avoid the shell making it all the way to the citadel, but it would still deal pen damage.

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51 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

What do you mean by real CL?  Any cruiser with guns smaller than 155mm are light cruisers.

I mean that the new Cleveland plays like other CLs in the game. Before, because it was time warped to 1920, it didn’t need to play like a CL. CAs tend to be better at range, better against other cruisers, and better at doing high damage on the first volley. People keep complaining about the Cleveland’s arcs, or about the damage it does, or about not being able to kite out to max range and fight in open water — it’s not a CA. 

At tier 6, the Cleveland wasn’t notably bad when playing outside the CL style, but at tier 8 it is. You won’t catch RN CLs doing half the stuff Cleveland players got used to either. 

With CAs, even with paper-hulled treaty cruisers, open waters are a lot more viable. Those guns are generally more accurate at range, and since they are firing less often it’s easier to shoot, then dodge away, then get your guns back on target and shoot without missing any opportunities to shoot. CLs need to keep their guns firing to do competitive damage, and that basically requires the use of cover and distraction. 

My point is that at tier 6, the Cleveland didn’t need to play like a CL because she was a bit too much for that tier in other ways. 

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Plenty of CLs are good in open water, russians for example.

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15 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Plenty of CLs are good in open water, russians for example.

Only because they have the best 6" gun. It's not quite equivalent to a CA gun, but it is very close. Nobody else's CL gun can offer that sort of performance

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Mogami's guns are even better than Kutuzov, but the ship it's attached to leaves a lot to be desired.

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I'm enjoying mine, feels like it has that old CBT punch back especially in AA.  The shell arcs don't really seem that terrible, either because I'm used to the even worse USN 5inchers or maybe because the ships she's shooting at are a lot bigger than what you see 2 tiers down, or maybe the short range.  Not averaging a lot of kills so far, but I think that's because she fits into that USN do-all mold where she doesn't deliver huge knock out damage, but has that perfect mix of damage over time, utility, and enough survivability to keep her going late into the game that makes for the ideal support ship.  Her detection and radar range make her killer backup for a DDs trying to take a cap.

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8 minutes ago, Aetreus said:

Only because they have the best 6" gun. It's not quite equivalent to a CA gun, but it is very close. Nobody else's CL gun can offer that sort of performance

Mogami.

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7 minutes ago, crzyhawk said:

Mogami.

Mogami's gun is down a good 3km of maximum range, and at practical combat ranges a bit more than a second of flight time/~1km of useful range. It is the next best thing, but not quite the same. Generally, the Soviet 152mm can put itself closer to the lower end of the 8" guns than those guns are from the upper end. Mogami can't quite manage that.

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Mogami is good in open water which was the point I was making.  Plenty of CLs are good in open water.  Being an island humper is /not/ a CL trait.

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I'd love to find out how amazing the new Cleveland is, but I'm endlessly bottom tiered against tier 10s. However... When I was driving my Monaghan (tier 6) today, I was more often than not bottom tiered against... A crapload of Clevelands! Why cant I ever be top tiered with a tier 8 Cruiser?  :Smile_sad:

BTW, I've noticed that since the patch and all these new high tier USN Cruisers being driven, that the queue times are a lot longer. So much for WG's claim that more high tier ships will reduce queue times.

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1 hour ago, ReddNekk said:

I'd love to find out how amazing the new Cleveland is, but I'm endlessly bottom tiered against tier 10s. However... When I was driving my Monaghan (tier 6) today, I was more often than not bottom tiered against... A crapload of Clevelands! Why cant I ever be top tiered with a tier 8 Cruiser?  :Smile_sad:

BTW, I've noticed that since the patch and all these new high tier USN Cruisers being driven, that the queue times are a lot longer. So much for WG's claim that more high tier ships will reduce queue times.

This is because there is an aberrant surge of people playing with their new toys. It was worst just after the patch, with up to 150 cruisers in queue. Numbers I have noticed seem down from that now. It will get better. 

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Would not exactly call it amazing, in fact when it comes to going against other tier 8's, I'd rather be in the tier 6 version of the Cleveland, then again, that could just be me.

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7 hours ago, Judge_Doom said:

Would not exactly call it amazing, in fact when it comes to going against other tier 8's, I'd rather be in the tier 6 version of the Cleveland, then again, that could just be me.

 

Why? The t6 had worse armor, worse range, worse reload, worse stealth, worse aa, less consumables, and slower turning turrets. 

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