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Panzermarine_Yoshi

Questions about Citadels

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I am posting a few questions about citadels and hoping to get some answers.  I am asking this in part as a confused player (been here since the open beta and citadels are still weird) and in part as a curious engineer.  Sorry if I am asking anything that has already been asked and answered.  As a point of reference I main IJN (kept my  ARP Kongo and her sisters and Fuso, grinding an Izumo to get Yamato) and KMS(currently at Bayern, want to reach Gneisenau) battleships and sail my ARP Takao when the other ships are occupied.    

 

1) What is in the citadel/what counts as the citadel in real life? - Basic knowledge and research tells me that the citadel contains important parts of the ship that need to function to keep it running.  Can anyone give some more specifics?

2) In relation to the above: Do nerfs/buffs involving moving (raising or lowering, expanding or shrinking) citadels have wiggle room? - I know a few ships have had citadels lowered (some of the end-game tier US battleships), and there are calls for other ships to get similar tweaks (i.e. raise the citadel on ship ABC so we can actually hit and kill it, make the citadel on ship XYZ smaller as that's what the design plans say).  IIRC a few citadels got changed a bit because in addition to important machinery, the hitbox also included some space around them (armor extending to parts of other decks, nonessential rooms, etc.) that could be considered expendable.  The main point of this question: What is WarGaming classifying as the citadel in-game?

3) How are we supposed to hit citadels located below the water line in the game's current state? - This is me asking for help. I usually aim for "center mass" at the water line and luck gives me either 0-1 citadel hit and some normal and over penetrations, or multiple citadel hits and a Devastating Strike Medal.  Below water citadels means that my aim will cause rounds to fly above and miss and/or bounce off the citadel roof (but still hit the upper decks for some damage).  Plunging fire at long ranges should work better, but the shells still have to punch through all the decks and structure above the citadel and then there's actually hitting the target at ranges for plunging fire to work like that.  Some tips here would be nice.  

4) (Not trying to start a fight with this question) When using the Armor Viewer, does anyone else think it makes Yamato's citadel look weird/has strange design? - The citadel has a decent chunk above the water line, but that section is heavily armored with part of it being the main belt IIRC .  The Armor Viewer shows on other ships that armored section with the main belt as the casemate or some other section of the ship.  It's like the logic behind it was "the citadel may be exposed, but you got to get through all this armor if you want to damage it".  In the same vein as the question: Are there any other ships that look weird/funny when you look at them with the Armor Viewer (trying to get a quick laugh)?

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1. Basically, its kinda like the engine room, the important parts of a ship. This IRL is basically the magazine and engine rooms.

2. Buffing a citadel is making it smaller and harder to hit.

3. Sometimes if you shoot, especially at long range with plunging fire, shells will plunge down, penetrate the decks and hit the citadel from the top there. I'm not sure but I think sometimes shells can travel underwater very briefly to hit it.

4. Yamato's citadel is actually very bad. Yes, it might have 16 inches of armor but if it is flat broadside then any bb gun would be able to go through and even some cruiser guns. The citadel is octagonal on the front allowing most ships able to citadel the Yamato when it's angled.

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Bear in mind, hitting a little below the turrets of any ship will also count as a citadel hit. 

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Shoot to hit, the only time I ever try to aim at a particular spot is when we are within 1km of each other and I am trying to knock out a turret.

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6 minutes ago, Super_S1X said:

Bear in mind, hitting a little below the turrets of any ship will also count as a citadel hit. 

Not true.

With AP you need to hit, penetrate and have your shell explode inside the citadel box to do citadel damage. With HE you need to splash damage the citadel hitbox. Barbettes do not count as citadel.

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54 minutes ago, Lert said:

Not true.

With AP you need to hit, penetrate and have your shell explode inside the citadel box to do citadel damage. With HE you need to splash damage the citadel hitbox. Barbettes do not count as citadel.

Below the barbettes are the magazines, which are part of the citadel, mostly. But the barbettes, like you said, are NOT the magazine. 

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3 minutes ago, GabeTheDespot said:

Below the barbettes are the magazines, which are part of the citadel, mostly. But the barbettes, like you said, are NOT the magazine. 

Magazines are not part of the citadel either. Most large / 'modern' ships carry the mags in the citadel, but many ships have mags outside the cit, and hitting a mag does not count as hitting the cit. They're not the same.

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1. It's the engines and fuel storage. Sometimes the magazines are in the citadel, sometimes they aren’t. Sometimes magazines are outside the citadel proper, but count as a citadel hit in game (as on most USN cruisers), but sometimes they don’t count as a citadel hit (many non-USN cruisers don’t count magazine hits as citadel, but magazine hits can still blow a ship up).

On many ships (notably USN designs with the "all or nothing" scheme) the citadel also contains enough of the ship's hull to maintain buoyancy even with total loss of other sections of the ship. There are a ton of photos of CA-32 New Orleans with everything forward of the #2 turret blown off which illustrate this; she suffered a magazine explosion, but the damage stopped at the heavier citadel bulkheads, so enough of the ship was intact that it stayed afloat (New Orleans also suffered flooding in her aft, but again the citadel was intact enough to stay afloat). 

So the citadel can represent both the vitals, and the part of the ship which needs to stay intact to remain buoyant. 

 

 

2. The wiggle room is in what counts as citadel. In game, the citadel is the part the ship can’t survive without, but certain areas get excluded when they make a ship too vulnerable to be playable. Many low tier cruisers have their magazines excluded, because those had very light armor and the ships would be far too prone to citadel hits from virtually everything. Often, parts of the citadel above the waterline are excluded too — the idea there is that an engine room hit above the waterline might be repaired, but one below the waterline couldn’t.

As genral rules, CLs don’t get their magazines modeled, and BBs have the top of their real life citadel excluded, modeling only the part below the waterline. CAs tend to have everything that might be considered "citadel" in their model.

 

3. It depends on the style of citadel. On USN ships, the armored box goers all the way to the hull, so you either penetrate that, or go through the thinly armored roof. On other ships, the citadel is back behind an armored belt, and has a sloped and armored roof — on those, you basically can’t count on penetrating. Against those, go for lots of regular penetrations. Against KM and RN BBs, the normal way I get citadel hits is from extreme range, and it’s always a fluke. 

 

 

4. The Yamato’s citadel is modeled differently than other BBs to make it more vulnerable. Many other BBs used to have their citadel go to the edges of the hull like that, and extend that far above the waterline, but WG modified the others so that only the machine spaces below the waterline counted for citadel hits. Wi the Yamato, basically anything that penetrates he side hits the citadel. It’s done just to keep the Yamato from being too dominant. 

 

 

That said, I don’t think it would be bad to give all citadel models in the game the same treatment. Lower every one to the waterline, and on those ships that have magazines outside the citadel, don’t model them as part of the citadel. 

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59 minutes ago, Lert said:

Magazines are not part of the citadel either. Most large / 'modern' ships carry the mags in the citadel, but many ships have mags outside the cit, and hitting a mag does not count as hitting the cit. They're not the same.

In game, it depends on the ship. Many USN cruiser models count the magazines as part of the citadel hit box. I’m not able to check in game right now, but from memory it’s the Atlanta plus all the heavy cruisers. They all have a smaller box with 25 or 30 mm armor under the turrets. I don’t remember if other heavies have magazines modeled as citadel too, but I know all the USN heavy cruisers still have them. 

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1 minute ago, inktomi19d said:

In game, it depends on the ship. Many USN cruiser models count the magazines as part of the citadel hit box. I’m not able to check in game right now, but from memory it’s the Atlanta plus all the heavy cruisers. They all have a smaller box with 25 or 30 mm armor under the turrets. I don’t remember if other heavies have magazines modeled as citadel too, but I know all the USN heavy cruisers still have them. 

Those are just magazines and not part of the citadel. They do not count as citadel. They count as magazines.

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2 hours ago, Panzermarine_Yoshi said:

3) How are we supposed to hit citadels located below the water line in the game's current state? - This is me asking for help. I usually aim for "center mass" at the water line and luck gives me either 0-1 citadel hit and some normal and over penetrations, or multiple citadel hits and a Devastating Strike Medal.  Below water citadels means that my aim will cause rounds to fly above and miss and/or bounce off the citadel roof (but still hit the upper decks for some damage).  Plunging fire at long ranges should work better, but the shells still have to punch through all the decks and structure above the citadel and then there's actually hitting the target at ranges for plunging fire to work like that.  Some tips here would be nice.  

Aiming slightly below the waterline will cause the rounds to enter the water and hit the citadel slightly below the waterline, which is directly into its side.  This usually gives maximum penetration at the proper range as long as the angle of the citadel sides and the angle of the plunging shot doesn't exceed the bounce angle depending on the thickness of the citadel wall.  That is why it is hard to get a side-on citadel at extreme ranges.  At extreme ranges, the plunge angle allows top penetration.  However, once you get close enough, the side shot trajectory allows nice penetration into the citadel as long as you are shooting big enough caliber rounds.  By aiming above the waterline, you risk ricochets off the top of the citadel, although dispersion can cause some of the shots to hit the citadel by luck.  You will often get superstructure damage when you do this, which can still deal some moderate damage.  Cruiser hits like this from a BB will often result in overpens, but direct citadel hits from a BB on a cruiser are devastating.

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

Those are just magazines and not part of the citadel. They do not count as citadel. They count as magazines.

They show as citadel on the armor viewer. You can score citadel hits shooting under the turrets on USN cruisers. Not every ship is the same in that way though. 

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2 minutes ago, inktomi19d said:

They show as citadel on the armor viewer. You can score citadel hits shooting under the turrets on USN cruisers. Not every ship is the same in that way though. 

The citadel on USN ships still shows as a block in the middle of the ship.  The area under the turrets is the same color often due to having the same armour thickness, but is not the citadel.  Turn off all the armour views except the citadel (far right)  and only the citadel block in the middle  of the ship will show up.

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Just now, inktomi19d said:

They show as citadel on the armor viewer.

Aaah, I was confused. You must mean these:

Atlanta:

TmssBcW.jpg

Indianapolis:

bTCrsjK.jpg

Buffalo:

g0QPRPS.jpg

Strangely, Des Moines has a different citadel style:

OGp9834.jpg

I'm not actually sure whether those square bits that stick out in the front and rear of the citadel in the first three screenshots count as magazines. I know for a fact that on other cruisers the magazine sits outside the citadel and some inside the citadel.

Seems that we're both right. You in your assessment of some of the US cruisers, and me in that magazines are not specifically counted as citadel. Seems that some ships have extended citadels that envelop the magazines, which caused the confusion in my case.

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4 minutes ago, Murcc said:

Turn off all the armour views except the citadel (far right)  and only the citadel block in the middle  of the ship will show up.

That's what I did in my screenshots in my above post. Still shows extended blocks underneath the turrets, afore and abaft the machinery spaces.

Mind you, in most of these you're not ever going to be able to specifically aim your shells at these extended bits, they're so far under the water line. Torpedo hits might splashdamage them though.

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1 minute ago, Lert said:

That's what I did in my screenshots in my above post. Still shows extended blocks underneath the turrets, afore and abaft the machinery spaces.

Mind you, in most of these you're not ever going to be able to specifically aim your shells at these extended bits, they're so far under the water line. Torpedo hits might splashdamage them though.

Yeah.  I still count that as part of the larger citadel block and not part of the turret extending down into the ship just because it is a horizontal xtension the citadel and not a cylindrical extension of the turret.   I guess its just wording.

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6 minutes ago, Murcc said:

The citadel on USN ships still shows as a block in the middle of the ship.  The area under the turrets is the same color often due to having the same armour thickness, but is not the citadel.  Turn off all the armour views except the citadel (far right)  and only the citadel block in the middle  of the ship will show up.

Try what you just said. On the Pensacola, Atlanta, New Orleans, Cleveland, Baltimore, and Buffalo, the magazines are part of the citadel model (on the Cleveland and Baltimore the foreword magazine is inside the main citadel, but the aft magazine hangs out). There might be other ships which model the magazine as part of the citadel, but I have those USN cruisers in port so it’s easy to check their models, and I’ve shot at them enough at 2 or 3 km to be sure that hits under the turrets do hit the citadel. 

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2 hours ago, Panzermarine_Yoshi said:

I am posting a few questions about citadels and hoping to get some answers.  I am asking this in part as a confused player (been here since the open beta and citadels are still weird) and in part as a curious engineer.  Sorry if I am asking anything that has already been asked and answered.  As a point of reference I main IJN (kept my  ARP Kongo and her sisters and Fuso, grinding an Izumo to get Yamato) and KMS(currently at Bayern, want to reach Gneisenau) battleships and sail my ARP Takao when the other ships are occupied.    

 

1) What is in the citadel/what counts as the citadel in real life? - Basic knowledge and research tells me that the citadel contains important parts of the ship that need to function to keep it running.  Can anyone give some more specifics?

2) In relation to the above: Do nerfs/buffs involving moving (raising or lowering, expanding or shrinking) citadels have wiggle room? - I know a few ships have had citadels lowered (some of the end-game tier US battleships), and there are calls for other ships to get similar tweaks (i.e. raise the citadel on ship ABC so we can actually hit and kill it, make the citadel on ship XYZ smaller as that's what the design plans say).  IIRC a few citadels got changed a bit because in addition to important machinery, the hitbox also included some space around them (armor extending to parts of other decks, nonessential rooms, etc.) that could be considered expendable.  The main point of this question: What is WarGaming classifying as the citadel in-game?

3) How are we supposed to hit citadels located below the water line in the game's current state? - This is me asking for help. I usually aim for "center mass" at the water line and luck gives me either 0-1 citadel hit and some normal and over penetrations, or multiple citadel hits and a Devastating Strike Medal.  Below water citadels means that my aim will cause rounds to fly above and miss and/or bounce off the citadel roof (but still hit the upper decks for some damage).  Plunging fire at long ranges should work better, but the shells still have to punch through all the decks and structure above the citadel and then there's actually hitting the target at ranges for plunging fire to work like that.  Some tips here would be nice.  

4) (Not trying to start a fight with this question) When using the Armor Viewer, does anyone else think it makes Yamato's citadel look weird/has strange design? - The citadel has a decent chunk above the water line, but that section is heavily armored with part of it being the main belt IIRC .  The Armor Viewer shows on other ships that armored section with the main belt as the casemate or some other section of the ship.  It's like the logic behind it was "the citadel may be exposed, but you got to get through all this armor if you want to damage it".  In the same vein as the question: Are there any other ships that look weird/funny when you look at them with the Armor Viewer (trying to get a quick laugh)?

Citadels generally happen on a Cruiser when they get hit broadside.. there mistake, Fire AP at waterline just below smokestacks the citadel is different places different ships, got 7 citadels in one salvo from my Zao at 10k on a De Moines who was focused on setting up a Torp run on a B.B.and didn’t notice me .. there last mistake

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It does mean that shots that are slightly off from center still have a good chance at a citadel hit.  Explains a few citadels I got when I thought I was going to just clip the nose of a ship.

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10 minutes ago, Murcc said:

The citadel on USN ships still shows as a block in the middle of the ship.  The area under the turrets is the same color often due to having the same armour thickness, but is not the citadel.  Turn off all the armour views except the citadel (far right)  and only the citadel block in the middle  of the ship will show up.

The color is purely for armor thickness.  Also, ships can have overlapping hitboxes.  If you look at GM3D, you can see many larger ships feature areas that count both as citadel and as magazine hitboxes

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6 minutes ago, Lert said:

Aaah, I was confused. You must mean these:

Atlanta:

TmssBcW.jpg

Indianapolis:

bTCrsjK.jpg

Buffalo:

g0QPRPS.jpg

Strangely, Des Moines has a different citadel style:

OGp9834.jpg

I'm not actually sure whether those square bits that stick out in the front and rear of the citadel in the first three screenshots count as magazines. I know for a fact that on other cruisers the magazine sits outside the citadel and some inside the citadel.

Seems that we're both right. You in your assessment of some of the US cruisers, and me in that magazines are not specifically counted as citadel. Seems that some ships have extended citadels that envelop the magazines, which caused the confusion in my case.

Fair enough and big of you to say. On my phone so I couldn’t get screen shots, thanks. 

I drive he Atlanta a lot, and I can absolutely confirm that 5" AP hits citadel if you aim right here from 2 km away. Those parts also tend to detonate.

They really seem to be USN-specific though. On other ships, if they had a large citadel that included the magazines then the whole citadel is modeled, but only the USN seems to get the little thinly-armored magazines added on if they weren’t inside he citadel. 

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Looks like they took the small magazine extension of the citadel that appears on most USN cruisers, and made it a nice big "hit me here" block on the Des Moines.  Explains why the DM is squishy and easy to hit with a dev strike.

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2 minutes ago, Murcc said:

Looks like they took the small magazine extension of the citadel that appears on most USN cruisers, and made it a nice big "hit me here" block on the Des Moines.  Explains why the DM is squishy and easy to hit with a dev strike.

Probably because of the nature of the DM's auto-loading system resulted in it taking up more space.

 

8 minutes ago, inktomi19d said:

They really seem to be USN-specific though. On other ships, if they had a large citadel that included the magazines then the whole citadel is modeled, but only the USN seems to get the little thinly-armored magazines added on if they weren’t inside he citadel. 

That's because that's how the USN designed their cruiser magazines in an attempt to protect them.  I just checked all the tier 8 cruisers for a reference, and they all have magazines as part of their citadel zones in the in-game armor viewer.

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2 minutes ago, Murcc said:

Looks like they took the small magazine extension of the citadel that appears on most USN cruisers, and made it a nice big "hit me here" block on the Des Moines.  Explains why the DM is squishy and easy to hit with a dev strike.

The DM might have included a larger armored box for the citadel. WG tends to model cruisers citadels as the whole section that was armored, while BBs tend to have their citadel cut off at the waterline. 

 

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2 hours ago, Lert said:

Magazines are not part of the citadel either. Most large / 'modern' ships carry the mags in the citadel, but many ships have mags outside the cit, and hitting a mag does not count as hitting the cit. They're not the same.

I will take your word for it, but there are citadels beneath the main guns, look at Cleveland for the best example.

EDIT: Never mind, this was addressed already. 

Edited by GabeTheDespot

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