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Xlap

"Coward"?

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Had this battle today, i was playing my Yamato and two cruisers in a division were calling me a coward because i was supposedly running away from the fight. 

 

The battle: Trap map, team spawned at the northwest corner. About 2/3 of the team went north, into C. The remaining 1/3, including me, a NC, and the cruiser div were sitting west of B cap (between AB). The enemy team (spawned at eh southeast corner) Went mostly to AB. At the start of the battle, we were tradin shoot with the enemy through B. But the enemy team was quicker pushing through A than our was pushing through C. I realized that we were in a weak position, the enemy was about to come out of A and get our flank. I call it on chat and started to move away, towars C. Me and the NC moved away, but the cruiser div kept the position and started calling us cowards. Now, why would i kept a position where:

- The enemy had number advantage;

- The enemy had position advatage (they were about to get our flank and crossfire us);

- There was no help from the team since thy went north into C and were to far to help;

 

There was no reason to kept that position, it was a weak position. After that, both me and the NC were able to regroup with the rest of the team at C and we pushed into B. in the end we won the battle. 

 

After the battle, i noticed that i had been reported and one of the guys sent me a pm calling me of coward once again. Now, i dont care about the report or the pm. What i do care is how both of them fail to see that, we were in a weak position that was about to be overrun by the enemy team. We had two choices, keep the position and die, or reposition and keep fighting the battle. If i have to choose between be "brave", die and possibly lose the battle or be a "coward", retreat and reposition, keep fighting and possibly win the battle, i will always chose the second option.

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6 minutes ago, Xlap said:

After the battle, i noticed that i had been reported and one of the guys sent me a pm calling me of coward once again. Now, i dont care about the report or the pm. What i do care is how both of them fail to see that, we were in a weak position that was about to be overrun by the enemy team. We had two choices, keep the position and die, or reposition and keep fighting the battle. If i have to choose between be "brave", die and possibly lose the battle or be a "coward", retreat and reposition, keep fighting and possibly win the battle, i will always chose the second option.

The player was willing to fight to the last ship. That last ship being his. He wants you to die for him. Simple enough reasoning. Shrug and move on.

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So we have a 'SPOTTED' Ribbon.

We should also have a 'TURNED AND RAN AWAY' ribbon as well.  Give it a nice brown color.

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18 minutes ago, Xlap said:

Now, why would i kept a position where:

- The enemy had number advantage;

- The enemy had position advatage (they were about to get our flank and crossfire us);

- There was no help from the team since thy went north into C and were to far to help;

 

People love to scream in chat about what you should be doing.   Most of the time they don't even really understand what THEY should be doing, so it is safe to ignore them.   The key to winning is knowing when someone actually is understanding the situation and giving good advice.  Living to fight on is important and by default the goal, but sometimes not the most important aspect to winning the battle.  Especially if your team goes off and does something dumb such as push 2/3 of the team to a single cap.   

 

If re-positioning allows the enemy to gain cap and map dominance, with no corresponding ship discrepancy, then all re-positioning is accomplishing is helping you get a higher WTR on the loss you are about to incur.   Ships being equal, it is imperative to never allow an opposing team to have both cap and Map advantage.   Overcoming one disadvantage or another is difficult but possible, overcoming both is effectively impossible for all practical terms.   

Without seeing the battle specifically I can't speak as to your situation.   Perhaps the group at C was moving to a better position and what was most needed was a rear guard to hold the enemy A flank push long enough to properly setup a counter defense at B.    Perhaps not.   Again can't say without seeing it.  Just answering your question, as despite being suicidal, sometimes holding fast is the most important action you can do to help your team win, sometimes not.  The key to victory is knowing when that is.

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I don't think cowardice exists in this game. There's nothing to fear. There are smart plays and dumb plays, but not cowardice or bravery.

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27 minutes ago, Xlap said:

Had this battle today, i was playing my Yamato and two cruisers in a division were calling me a coward because i was supposedly running away from the fight. 

 

The battle: Trap map, team spawned at the northwest corner. About 2/3 of the team went north, into C. The remaining 1/3, including me, a NC, and the cruiser div were sitting west of B cap (between AB). The enemy team (spawned at eh southeast corner) Went mostly to AB. At the start of the battle, we were tradin shoot with the enemy through B. But the enemy team was quicker pushing through A than our was pushing through C. I realized that we were in a weak position, the enemy was about to come out of A and get our flank. I call it on chat and started to move away, towars C. Me and the NC moved away, but the cruiser div kept the position and started calling us cowards. Now, why would i kept a position where:

- The enemy had number advantage;

- The enemy had position advatage (they were about to get our flank and crossfire us);

- There was no help from the team since thy went north into C and were to far to help;

 

There was no reason to kept that position, it was a weak position. After that, both me and the NC were able to regroup with the rest of the team at C and we pushed into B. in the end we won the battle. 

 

After the battle, i noticed that i had been reported and one of the guys sent me a pm calling me of coward once again. Now, i dont care about the report or the pm. What i do care is how both of them fail to see that, we were in a weak position that was about to be overrun by the enemy team. We had two choices, keep the position and die, or reposition and keep fighting the battle. If i have to choose between be "brave", die and possibly lose the battle or be a "coward", retreat and reposition, keep fighting and possibly win the battle, i will always chose the second option.

I would be willing to bet they were sub 50% win rate players, ignore them because they are probably too stupid to ever learn.

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2 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I don't think cowardice exists in this game. There's nothing to fear. There are smart plays and dumb plays, but not cowardice or bravery.

Heh..ya. You don't actually, really, truly, die in a video game. Not in the literal sense.Some seem to act as if they don't realize this. I see your point.  People will still get called cowards however.

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22 minutes ago, AVR_Project said:

So we have a 'SPOTTED' Ribbon.

We should also have a 'TURNED AND RAN AWAY' ribbon as well.  Give it a nice brown color.

No no... it would be a brown ribbon with a big yellow streak down the middle if we are creating one. 

In my vernacular though... it's not running away, it is a "Strategic Relocation". 

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6 minutes ago, cometguy said:

I don't think cowardice exists in this game. There's nothing to fear. There are smart plays and dumb plays, but not cowardice or bravery.

This.  Though on occasion you can bait little egos into doing what you want by calling them cowards.  Not sure how much bravery it takes to sit behind a keyboard and push buttons, but this isnt my generation.

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WoWs is a game. There's no cowardice or bravery in a game. Smarts and stupidity, yes.

 

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1 minute ago, dmckay said:

Heh..ya. You don't actually, really, truly, die in a video game. Not in the literal sense.Some seem to act as if they don't realize this. I see your point.  People will still get called cowards however.

Well aside from cows, ducks, sloths or other such animal names, there's plenty to fear. Fear of not performing well (almost every guy experiences that at least once in their life), fear of looking <fill in the blank> that is not complimentary. Fear of being called stupid? Coward? NumbN***... you name it and a fear can be attached to it. And they would all be valid for the majority of those who play the game. 

It's there. It's real. And the only alternative is trying to prod, coach or advise a path through it. I'm not always successful at that, so don't even think I'm some saint that sails the digital waters! :cap_haloween: But I'm striving to get better in that direction. 

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Sometimes running is the smartest tactic.  Their fault for not paying attention to the changing situation and rolling out with you.

Just now, Hatework said:

Though on occasion you can bait little egos into doing what you want by calling them cowards

I do this sometimes when the enemy team is being too passive and the game is going to end too quickly or I need to farm more damage.  It'll work every now and then, especially on battleship players.

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The way I see it calling something cowardly in WoWS is essentially the same as saying that they're not playing smart, because like many of you are pointing out, there is no true cowardice in a game.  it's not like your life is at risk.  So it really is just a different way of saying that the "coward" isn't playing smart.  

The problem is that not everyone making the charge of cowardice is equally well qualified to make the charge.  If as the OP describes, he and his group of ships were heavily outnumbered and were engaging in a fighting withdrawal, there's not a bloody thing wrong with that.  In fact, it's down right STUPID to just throw your ships away all in the name of (foolish) "bravery" just so that you won't be called a coward.  It's far smarter to engage in a fighting withdrawal and try to form up with the rest of your team, rather than just thrown your ships away.  The fact is that a well played BB can do a LOT of damage in a fighting withdrawal, particularly against enemy BBs.  For one thing, if you're falling back from the enemy, it's going to be difficult for enemy DDs to torp you unless they'd already gotten around you before you started falling back.  If they're chasing you, they're unlikely to get close enough for torps to have much of a chance of reaching you, except perhaps if they're firing those 20km IJN torps.  About the most you have to fear in a fighting withdrawal is HE spam.

Honestly, if someone thinks that you should fight to the death, even if you're greatly outnumbered, just for the sake of a cap and for "bravery", they're a moron that should be ignored.  Mind you, if you're in Standard mode, and the enemy is capping your base, then you shouldn't be withdrawing from your base.  But that's a rather narrow situation.  Most of the time, the old saying that it's better to live to fight another day (or 5+ minutes longer in that battle) holds very true in WOWS battles.

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12 minutes ago, ReddNekk said:

WoWs is a game. There's no cowardice or bravery in a game. Smarts and stupidity, yes.

 

There's certainly no bravery or cowardice in a computer (or board) game.  Maybe in a rough, physical game in the real world there's a degree of bravery.  for example, it does take a degree of physical bravery in (American) football for a receiver to try to catch passes across the middle of the field when you're concerned that you could get hammered by some DB or linebacker who's looking to knock the back out of your hands the instant the ball touches them.  After all, there have been receivers who have had career ending injuries in just this situation, like Darryl Stingley, among others.

But when you're sitting in front of a computer and the only things you have to be concerned about are carpal tunnel and maybe high blood pressure, yeah, not so much.

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11 minutes ago, Deviathan said:

Sometimes running is the smartest tactic.  Their fault for not paying attention to the changing situation and rolling out with you.

I do this sometimes when the enemy team is being too passive and the game is going to end too quickly or I need to farm more damage.  It'll work every now and then, especially on battleship players.

I've been known to rag on BB players who are hiding WAYYYYY in back to the point that they seem to want to shoot only at max spotter plane range.  And occasionally, you'll see some German BB player hiding out around max run range, sniping, when they should be trying to move up.  Hey, I understand that if you're in a Bismarck or Tirpitz in a tier 10 battle, you may not want to be overly aggressive.  But that's no excuse for not trying to get up into the mid-ranges, particularly if there are higher tier, friendly BBs willing to do so.  Just follow them in and support them.  Or worse, you see some schmuck in a Bayern in a tier 8 battle sniping.  At least the Bismarck and Tirpitz have relatively accurate main guns.  But the damned Bayern is rather lame at its max range.  It really does need to close the range if it wants to be a factor, and not depend on the RNG gods to land the occasional lucky shot.

Another thing that's annoying is that I think a lot of the time, some people don't realize how close that friendly ship really is to the enemy.  They see open space on the map between your ship and the enemy, and don't realize that you might be at 15 km rather than 25 km, in a high tier battle, where 15 km in a BB is hardly long range.  And ya know, if I'm in a tier 9 or 10 BB and I don't have a lot of support, I'm not going to want to get closer to the enemy, because I don't know where that DD who was last spotted in the general vicinity might now be.  But hey, that team mate of yours seems open space on a minimap so you must be a filthy backline camper, when in reality, you might be quite heavily engaged, unsupported, and don't really dare getting any closer.

 

 

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This is why you get teams that evaporate quickly in the first few minutes of the battle.

If you are in a weak position like that, the best thing is to run and keep the enemy occupied until your team can take their flank. Running in and dying only allows them to get batter firing position with superior numbers onto your team.

I have saved many a game by taking fire from superior numbers (Keeping them occupied) while my team works on a flank to gain superiority. Does it always work? No, because your team has to do their job by beating their flank which can be hampered by RNG, potatoing, or poor shooting.

Unfortunately it seems there are a couple metas right now that include rushing until you die and snipping from the back of the map while trying to not actually engage the enemy.

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If someone is a coward it infects everything they do. How you play games is a direct reflection of your personality. Aggressive people do everything aggressively, cowards do everything cowardly.  

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1 hour ago, Xlap said:

Had this battle today, i was playing my Yamato and two cruisers in a division were calling me a coward because i was supposedly running away from the fight. 

 

The battle: Trap map, team spawned at the northwest corner. About 2/3 of the team went north, into C. The remaining 1/3, including me, a NC, and the cruiser div were sitting west of B cap (between AB). The enemy team (spawned at eh southeast corner) Went mostly to AB. At the start of the battle, we were tradin shoot with the enemy through B. But the enemy team was quicker pushing through A than our was pushing through C. I realized that we were in a weak position, the enemy was about to come out of A and get our flank. I call it on chat and started to move away, towars C. Me and the NC moved away, but the cruiser div kept the position and started calling us cowards. Now, why would i kept a position where:

- The enemy had number advantage;

- The enemy had position advatage (they were about to get our flank and crossfire us);

- There was no help from the team since thy went north into C and were to far to help;

 

There was no reason to kept that position, it was a weak position. After that, both me and the NC were able to regroup with the rest of the team at C and we pushed into B. in the end we won the battle. 

 

After the battle, i noticed that i had been reported and one of the guys sent me a pm calling me of coward once again. Now, i dont care about the report or the pm. What i do care is how both of them fail to see that, we were in a weak position that was about to be overrun by the enemy team. We had two choices, keep the position and die, or reposition and keep fighting the battle. If i have to choose between be "brave", die and possibly lose the battle or be a "coward", retreat and reposition, keep fighting and possibly win the battle, i will always chose the second option.

I agree what he did was a bunch of crap. Technically I would create a video with the results of why he was being a piece of useless player. :) Actually I have created one. A player in my division at the time was accused of wall hacking and also we were accused of giving away the team position. 

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1 hour ago, Xlap said:

I realized that we were in a weak position, the enemy was about to come out of A and get our flank. I call it on chat and started to move away, towars C. Me and the NC moved away, but the cruiser div kept the position and started calling us cowards.

You called it in chat, that's the way to do it.    I could understand a little aggravation if you turned without chatting.    But saying "hey... we're about to be flanked at A, head towards C".... well, I would have given you the "Roger that" and turned with you, like the NC did.       Even if I was a cruiser, I wouldn't have sat there.  If nothing else, head for the J line and start kiting.   Maybe I could get four to chase (and thus, take them away from the action - also leaving the chasers exposed broadside to your shots).

Sit in place?   Maybe sitting in smoke, in my UK bote.... maybe...

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2 minutes ago, DukeRamulots said:

If someone is a coward it infects everything they do. How you play games is a direct reflection of your personality. Aggressive people do everything aggressively, cowards do everything cowardly.  

But how does it affect things when bravery and cowardice are impossible? Such as in a game where it is difficult to end the match in a position where you are worse off for having played?

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4 minutes ago, DukeRamulots said:

If someone is a coward it infects everything they do. How you play games is a direct reflection of your personality. Aggressive people do everything aggressively, cowards do everything cowardly.  

My millennial granddaughter talks in absolutes.   It's pretty funny listening to her binary thinking - only one correct approach.   On or off, all or nothing.

 

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1 minute ago, cometguy said:

But how does it affect things when bravery and cowardice are impossible? Such as in a game where it is difficult to end the match in a position where you are worse off for having played?

When half the team is hiding in positions that are neither tactically sound or are able to support the team they are doing so out of fear/cowardice. Saying bravery/cowardice and other traits don't bleed into the game is naive to say the least. It's like taking a cheater to a game they haven't cheated in and being surprised they cheated. Your character dictates every interaction you have, real or virtual. Many studies have been done on this subject using videogames and it seems to hold true regardless of the game being played.  

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