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LunchCutter

Simple idea to take the annoyance of fire away

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Decrease the burn times. At the moment they are far too excessive and annoying. Especially for battleships. They are a 100% luck based weapon and there is too much reward for using them. Even BB's are spamming it these days as AP shells just don't have the reliability. A earlier game I fired at AP's at a sideon at Missouri at 18k, 7 hits, zero damage, reload, 6 hits 1k damage, I lose faith in AP and switch to HE and score 5 hits, 7k damage and 2 fires..

 Maybe change the fire period to..

  • 10 seconds for destroyers
  • 15 seconds for cruisers
  • 25 seconds for carriers and battleships

Still going to cause damage. Just find it frustrating as my North Carolina is pummelled by HE shells by invisible cruisers hiding behind islands. Never ending fires, withdraw, deal with the damage, turn around try and engage enemy, more HE spam, more fires... Repeat until dead.

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just stop playing for a few days and come back,there,you took the "annoyance" of fire away.

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11 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

Decrease the burn times. At the moment they are far too excessive and annoying. Especially for battleships. They are a 100% luck based weapon and there is too much reward for using them. Even BB's are spamming it these days as AP shells just don't have the reliability. A earlier game I fired at AP's at a sideon at Missouri at 18k, 7 hits, zero damage, reload, 6 hits 1k damage, I lose faith in AP and switch to HE and score 5 hits, 7k damage and 2 fires..

 Maybe change the fire period to..

  • 10 seconds for destroyers
  • 15 seconds for cruisers
  • 25 seconds for carriers and battleships

Still going to cause damage. Just find it frustrating as my North Carolina is pummelled by HE shells by invisible cruisers hiding behind islands. Never ending fires, withdraw, deal with the damage, turn around try and engage enemy, more HE spam, more fires... Repeat until dead.

I stopped playing BBs, because the removal of the higher citadels, new BB lines with near impossible to hit citadels and dispersion. Perhaps try another class yourself.

Edited by LemonadeWarrior

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8 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

A earlier game I fired at AP's at a sideon at Missouri at 18k, 7 hits, zero damage, reload, 6 hits 1k damage, I lose faith in AP

What ship were you in exactly?

AP is actually the most reliable damage dealer against broadside targets, provided that you can actually penetrate their belt armour.

As for fire spam; 98% of the time people will only fire at the closest/most convenient target. If you're getting focused on, disengage, get behind the battle line, repair then re-engage.

A lot of people simply does not understand the value of simply stop firing and disengaging until they either repair or find a better position.

People approach each and every battle as if it's a sprint, whereas it's actually a marathon, you perform better if you understand the basics of when and where to engage/disengage.

TL;DR: It's not the fire, it's how you play.

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Simple idea to get rid of fire?

Everyone fire AP.

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Why doesn't AP cause fires? It has explosive elements in it.

Edited by LunchCutter

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16 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

Why doesn't AP cause fires? It has explosive elements in it.

This is a game, not reality.

Gameplay takes precedence over reality

Any resemblance between reality and this game are merely coincidence

 

Thats a bit of an exaggeration but you get my point. Fire is a balance mechanism, without it DD and cruisers would be terrible to play. There is some real world basis behind what WG does....UK HE for instance. UK AP rounds carried a very high explosive content, almost double what other nations used, something like 50-60 lbs.

 

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I am a BB main and I don't find fire to be excessive and it is 100% repairable unlike other forms of damage.  There are flags, upgrades, and captain skills that decrease fire time already.  Nothing else is needed.  BBs who fire HE but have AP are doing things wrong - I laugh every time I see a Bismark fire HE, especially at me..

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34 minutes ago, LunchCutter said:

Decrease the burn times. At the moment they are far too excessive and annoying. Especially for battleships. They are a 100% luck based weapon and there is too much reward for using them. Even BB's are spamming it these days as AP shells just don't have the reliability. A earlier game I fired at AP's at a sideon at Missouri at 18k, 7 hits, zero damage, reload, 6 hits 1k damage, I lose faith in AP and switch to HE and score 5 hits, 7k damage and 2 fires..

 Maybe change the fire period to..

  • 10 seconds for destroyers
  • 15 seconds for cruisers
  • 25 seconds for carriers and battleships

Still going to cause damage. Just find it frustrating as my North Carolina is pummelled by HE shells by invisible cruisers hiding behind islands. Never ending fires, withdraw, deal with the damage, turn around try and engage enemy, more HE spam, more fires... Repeat until dead.

The problem with decreasing the burn time is that it takes away most of the bite from CAs,  whose AP shells tend to shatter unless the target is broadside at short range and whose HE shells also tend to shatter against high tier targets.

> repeat until dead

The idea is to flush them out from the flanks. There's no island of value in the game (i.e near a cap) where you cannot swing wide to flank them, and the CLs that favor island humping are extremely fragile otherwise.

> even BBs are spamming it

Which is to their detriment. Fire damage can be repaired, and while it can do more total damage if you let it burn, it takes more than three times as long for it to actually do damage that can't be undone (i.e expending all of your repair parties).

If you're getting pummeled for five straight minutes, then either the game has been lost already or you're throwing your ship away at an approach that will not work.

> I lose faith in AP

There are times to use HE, although this is only if your target is bow on and angled. That's when HE shines. The idea is that you trade literally half damage output for more consistent damage against targets that would shatter/bounce shells otherwise.

AKA it tends to punish both too aggressive (foolhardy rushers) and too passive players (who throw shells from max range hoping their angling and the long range will bounce shells).

The trick is to play strategically. If a flank has been effectively abandoned (DDs leaving/sunk, CA escorts island humping), LEAVE IT and reinforce some other flank before you get in island humper range. If a cap has limited opposition and is taken unopposed early on, then the enemy is coming in hard for the other caps; go down the direction of the unopposed cap and hit them from behind.

Etc.

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DD's and cruisers don't need fire nerfed any further. Only BB's and CV's do - all they need to do is reduce the % of HP lost to fire base line about 3% on BB's to 15% and more on CV's. At that point it's a little over the 14% standard repair does, and a little under the premium (16%). That way, forbid you have a damn choice, you don't take the skill  to limit fires and for some reason have no stuff to reduce time and are just that unlucky, your only losing 60% of your health to 4 fires burning over a minute not 72%. And give those of us that prefer brawler types the damn option of actually being able to push in, be aggressive, and not just burned away, literally. CV's are at a truly idiotic level, where they take 24% HP damage from a fire AND they can't launch planes.

 

Compare that to DD's and cruisers, who were lower as I recall than BB's already, that had fires nerfed on them down to 9% over 30 seconds, when they have DCP's that are 60/40 seconds for DD's and 90/60 for cruisers - compared to the 120/90 of a BB. And some of the cruisers and DD's get heals as well, some even better than a BB's. CV's don't even get that at all.

Now add in the IFHE and increased number of ships with 1/4 HE pen, they upped the alpha BB's are taking from the HE rounds too. When I play my cruisers I'm seeing chunks of 1000's coming off while setting fires. Not to mention when I can get a decent match for my CV and watch them burn. Combine that with BB's angled so AP doesn't work why the hell not use HE that will take chunks out and start fires that burn away just under 1/5th of their HP potentially? 

 

If I had my way, I'd nerf it to 12% on BB's, but I think 15% is fair, at least make it that a repair party roughly equals 1 fire in damage repaired, especially how rare it is a BB only has one burning on it. Bare bones right now with no skills, flags etc, BB player can repair 42% of the damage they take. Run premium repair party, superintendent and assuming you have the flag for it, the one that ups repaired damage, you can boost it to 90% over 320 seconds (that's 5 minutes, 20 seconds). Worst case scenario, 5 fires eats away every point of HP that the max number of repair parties with upped strength can heal. The easy go to, the modernization well, still takes roughly five fires set to fully off set max repair ability. That and the flag you can ward off 7 if you have enough time. Only full survival while having Super and premium repair would ward off 9. And that assumes only damage from fires, that doesn't factor in damage from the shells/bombs themselves or some other second source of damage. And that's assuming you survive the 5 minutes and 20 seconds of cool downs, and the 140 seconds of up times. At max potential regen/s. Can't run the flags to up HP Repaired, well, now your down to 70%. Can't run premium consumable or don't have SI - 64% with the repair boost flag, 56% without. None of that, like I said, 42% max, with 120 second cooldowns, even a full survival build can basically handle 4 total fires being allowed to burn and even then, not really.

It's really not hard to overwhelm a BB's ability to deal with fires.

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1 hour ago, LunchCutter said:

Decrease the burn times. At the moment they are far too excessive and annoying. Especially for battleships. They are a 100% luck based weapon and there is too much reward for using them. Even BB's are spamming it these days as AP shells just don't have the reliability. A earlier game I fired at AP's at a sideon at Missouri at 18k, 7 hits, zero damage, reload, 6 hits 1k damage, I lose faith in AP and switch to HE and score 5 hits, 7k damage and 2 fires..

 Maybe change the fire period to..

  • 10 seconds for destroyers
  • 15 seconds for cruisers
  • 25 seconds for carriers and battleships

Still going to cause damage. Just find it frustrating as my North Carolina is pummelled by HE shells by invisible cruisers hiding behind islands. Never ending fires, withdraw, deal with the damage, turn around try and engage enemy, more HE spam, more fires... Repeat until dead.

Or learn how to manage your damage control, works fine on my BBs...

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1 hour ago, LunchCutter said:

Decrease the burn times. At the moment they are far too excessive and annoying. Especially for battleships. They are a 100% luck based weapon and there is too much reward for using them. Even BB's are spamming it these days as AP shells just don't have the reliability. A earlier game I fired at AP's at a sideon at Missouri at 18k, 7 hits, zero damage, reload, 6 hits 1k damage, I lose faith in AP and switch to HE and score 5 hits, 7k damage and 2 fires..

 Maybe change the fire period to..

  • 10 seconds for destroyers
  • 15 seconds for cruisers
  • 25 seconds for carriers and battleships

Still going to cause damage. Just find it frustrating as my North Carolina is pummelled by HE shells by invisible cruisers hiding behind islands. Never ending fires, withdraw, deal with the damage, turn around try and engage enemy, more HE spam, more fires... Repeat until dead.

While, yes I agree fire can be annoying, let me ask you a question. What is your thought on BBs having the ability to delete cruisers in one AP salvo? I, for one, find it extremely satisfying.:Smile_great:

I will take the fires and deal with it because I think cruisers need that ability to stay relevant in matches. There are ways to deal with fires, however, sometimes you get in a match and can't stop burning. Sometimes you get Dev Strikes and sometimes the fires get you.

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Fires can go away completely when every ship maximum HP is reduced by the average amount of fire damage each class takes per game globally. That's around 30% of the total HP for BBs if I recall correctly, a bit less for others.

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I find fires to come and go.  Some days hardly anything no matter what.  The next day, its like all my ships are engulfed in gasoline and the slightest touch makes them burst out into 4 fires.

Fires are luck driven, with little to no skill.

12 minutes ago, CptRemy said:

While, yes I agree fire can be annoying, let me ask you a question. What is your thought on BBs having the ability to delete cruisers in one AP salvo? I, for one, find it extremely satisfying.:Smile_great:

I actually find watching a CA burn down to zero in a fire a BB set is more satisfying.  :Smile_playing:

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The idea of limiting the time that fires burn won't work, because when a fire stops burning it shows that it's time to set a new fire.  However, once a ship has 3 or 4 fires on it, no more can be set, so all other HE shots are basically wasted.  This is part of the reason that it's ideal to not have all the ships shooting at a target using HE in the first place.  Cruisers use HE because they're not expected to deal big alpha strike damage anyway.  Battleships using HE (outside of brits) are not only reducing the damage they do, but they're giving a Big middle finger to their friendly cruisers as well, because those cruisers will struggle to do damage since they lack the ability to set fires because the BB took it away from them.

 

  It certainly is annoying being on fire all the time, but I'm actually not sure this is a problem with the fire mechanic itself.  I think the bigger issue here is that it's rare to only be getting shot at by one ship, more so if you're in a Battleship.  (but when you're being shot at by two or three ships, you should be glad if they're all spamming HE)  Moreover, a Battleship can't simply turn around and go to a safer position, because it's the slowest least maneuverable ship class in the game.  What friendly cruiser is going to want to take damage for a BB?  you think those cruisers aren't going to turn and run for safer positions themselves?  Some nice destroyer might set some smoke for you, but that's only so useful.  Lines move, and they can move faster than Battleships, so telling BB captains to "go behind the lines" just ain't happenin'.

 

  Now I haven't fully fleshed out this other "solution" I've daydreamed about a few times, but ships in world war two would actually fight fires on other ships.  I don't know if they were ALL capable of this or if they had some specialized ships or whatever, but it makes me wonder why ships in WoWs can't help each other out.  I've specifically thought cruisers should be able to do something like this to give them added utility.  It may also help promote teamwork.

 

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1 hour ago, CylonRed said:

I am a BB main and I don't find fire to be excessive and it is 100% repairable unlike other forms of damage.  There are flags, upgrades, and captain skills that decrease fire time already.  Nothing else is needed.  BBs who fire HE but have AP are doing things wrong - I laugh every time I see a Bismark fire HE, especially at me..

There's nothing wrong with Bismarck firing HE at a BB especially if you're a bow on Montana or something along the line, German BBs have 1/4 HE and decent fire chance, way better than dealing 2-3k overpen damage to superstructure.

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If you stack all your points/flags/upgrades, fire time for a Bb gets down to the low 40s, plus a heavy bonus in fire chance reduction. Dont complain about what can be fixed

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Fire is fine as is. There are a lot of ways to cope with it, and decrease it's effectiveness. Of course doing that leaves you less powerful in however you are currently specced, but so what? Good game design puts in trade offs for customizations. If you could spec to be all worldly against everything, then what's the point of flags and captain skills?

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3 hours ago, yacskn said:

What ship were you in exactly?

AP is actually the most reliable damage dealer against broadside targets, provided that you can actually penetrate their belt armour.

As for fire spam; 98% of the time people will only fire at the closest/most convenient target. If you're getting focused on, disengage, get behind the battle line, repair then re-engage.

A lot of people simply does not understand the value of simply stop firing and disengaging until they either repair or find a better position.

People approach each and every battle as if it's a sprint, whereas it's actually a marathon, you perform better if you understand the basics of when and where to engage/disengage.

TL;DR: It's not the fire, it's how you play.

What?  Take a BB moving at flank that finds a "fire ship or ships" at 12 K.  You get hit by 12-16 HE every 5 to 8 seconds......  even if you turn around, and that takes quite a while in BB's, there is little hope.  Do the math:  even with a repair, there is no remediation for HE spam; other, than to stay further than their effective range !  The time in their effective range and accuracy exceeds the repair and rearm cycles.....you become combat ineffective.

That IS the meta reality right now.  No repair in the world, no flag set, no CPT skill in the world can help you survive HE Spam.....  Just doesn't and you burn to death each and every game....  Now, we are seeing Cruiser is the top 5 every game because they hide behind terrain features on all maps and do nothing but spam a specific boat....  They even fight among themselves over the best "lobbing sites" on the maps !!!

It's meta and it is ruining the game because no one can get within effective range and have any armor left to fight it out anymore...  We've tested this in a great many games and all it takes is one volley to start the fire and that starts three fires in a division in-bound and that cycle never stops and the in-bound BB's just die after their repair gets into the 1:30 cool down cycle...  There is no remediation: you die.  You die all the time = no game play satisfaction. 

It is a marathon because all we do now is hide and snipe !  We have no choice !!!  Radar makes DD's obsolete.  HE SPAM makes BB's obsolete

And neither radar nor HE spam , worked as effectively as they do in the game, during WW2.....  Remember, once meta is unleashed, the next conversation is balance.....and balance is where meta has ruined roles and once roles evaporate, the game becomes nothing but an arcade FPS where "revenue and profit" are controlled by the next meta/op variant and the entire underlying philosophies of the history of the weapons systems we use is lost forever.... 

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9 minutes ago, Asym_KS said:

What?  Take a BB moving at flank that finds a "fire ship or ships" at 12 K.  You get hit by 12-16 HE every 5 to 8 seconds......  even if you turn around, and that takes quite a while in BB's, there is little hope.  Do the math:  even with a repair, there is no remediation for HE spam; other, than to stay further than their effective range !  The time in their effective range and accuracy exceeds the repair and rearm cycles.....you become combat ineffective.

The issue with the scenario, as I see it, is that you put yourself into a situation where these ships could get to that range undetected, and you can't break contact. Of course that's not going to go well. Why should it?

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Again, break contact?  Think about that.....  What you are saying is that you should never attempt to "attack" but rather, oh....kinda of, well, wait around till the end and then, maybe, go in.....  The real issue is that the HE spam is a meta/OP situation that has no counter to it rather than "avoid" and, that defeats the entire point of the game....

NO.  "why should it?"   Because there shouldn't be an meta/OP weapon system.  There should be a realistic way to fight HE spam and Radar......  Otherwise, why have BB's and DD's ????   I like to compete and better myself but, in this situation, there is nothing to learn other than "stay away" and that is counter-intuitive to this games "selling point" which is to experience history and fight with the grand ships of old.....  CL's did not take on, in any way shape or form, fast BB's let alone were ever caught in LOS cause that usually meant a sure and violent death.....  Now, the CL's wander around setting everyone on fire because we can't stop the fires.....  If we had a way, this wouldn't be an issue because the CL's would just die......

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10 hours ago, Ganbaruzoi_ said:

There's nothing wrong with Bismarck firing HE at a BB especially if you're a bow on Montana or something along the line, German BBs have 1/4 HE and decent fire chance, way better than dealing 2-3k overpen damage to superstructure.

It is if the it constant HE and never switching even when targets are broadside for the entirety of the game.  Certainly no issue with HE at times - but never 100% of the time unless a ships does not have AP.

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13 hours ago, Taichunger said:

Simple idea to get rid of fire?

Everyone fire AP.

Does that include AP bombs?

 

Loll, I kid 

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As a BB main I don't get why some players are so stressed by fire.  It is simply another thing to manage and how well you can manage it contributes to how your overall performance is.

I get the feeling that players who complain about fire don't run durability builds and justify not doing so because they tried one part of a durability build and it didn't have much effect, so they decided that a complete durability build doesn't have much effect.  Yes, individually the parts of a durability build are pretty minor in their effect, but it adds up and it is very noticeably different in how much of an issue fires are.  My Bismarck burns far better than my Hood or Amagi.

Edited by Helstrem
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