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ep0xi

North Carolina ---> Iowa Question

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I have a quick question for all the pros out there, which certainly is not me.

I started out grinding the US BB line. I had a great time with the New Mexico and Colorado, then I got to the North Carolina..... and I suck with it. I am just terrible! I have grinded up enough free XP with my Tirpitz to get the Iowa.

With my Tirpitz I enjoy my games, make my hits and just overall have more success. Because of that success I am now up to Gneisenau in the German line as well.

So my question is this, does the Iowa play more like the Colorado in terms of its shooting arcs? Or am I walking in to another North Carolina? If so I may just continue up the German line and go for the Bismarck and on.

I did enjoy the US line more than the German up until now, I am not the brawler type. But it is growing on me I suppose.

 

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks all!

(I also have a tier 7 UK BB which is an option as well, but I enjoy seeing the big hits from AP!)

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Iowa takes North Carolina and distills it into a more powerful ship. If you can't make NC work and hate it, you're not likely to enjoy Iowa very much.

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Iowa is the squishiest High Tier Battleship in the game if you do not protect her sides.  It used to be worse when she had skyscraper citadels and she is far more doable now than long ago, but you still have to adhere to "Battleship Survival Skills 101" or get rekt.

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Lert thank you for the response. And that is what I was afraid of!

I think I will just go down a different line. It was just something about playing one of the Iowa class battleships that intrigued me but it just does not work for me.

 

Thanks again!

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Not only are the Iowa's sides squishy, they stay exposed longer as she seems a lot longer and takes more time to turn around (even though she is fast in a straight line).  You have to have good situational awareness and a sense of where to position her to do well.

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Iowa's ballistics are a bit more conventional than North Carolina's, last time I checked anyways.

However, Iowa and Missouri also turn a fair bit worse than North Carolina or Alabama, and there isn't much in the way of torpedo protection.

The trick with the Iowas is to use their speed and concealment to get into position and use those very accurate and hard-hitting guns to pummel your opposition.

Even without camouflage, you can get her concealment down to 12.3 km or so, meaning that you can close to optimal range fairly unmolested, and that 33 kts max speed means you can also reposition quite easily.

Just be aware that your belt armor is quite laughable (about as thin as Kancolle Iowa's clothing) and you must be careful not to overextend, make a bad turn, or eat a torpedo. Your best bet is to never expose your broadside (not that doing so is ever a good idea) and oftentimes sacrifice the use of the rear turret: better to have 6 guns and have shells bouncing off your bow than to have 9 guns and be constantly eating citadel hits.

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Have you had the NC fully upgraded yet? All BB stock hulls in this game have terrible rudder shift and handling that just feel like crapto play.

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Honestly my issue isn't even those things. I struggle to land shots, the aiming just seems so different to me compared to the Colorado, or Tirpitz.... or am I crazy?

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I will say if you enjoyed New Mexico very much you might find Montana to be a real hoot. Try and take her out in the next public test before you abandon the line altogether. Also, a stock NC cannot perform adequately against T10s. Use of free XP to get all that extra HP is almost mandatory.   

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The other trick is to not play the NC like a New Mexico or Colorado, which is what I did at first and got annihilated.  With the NC, I really had to learn to stay bow in most of the time, even if it means not using my back turret.  And when going bow first, that also means purposefully being a lot less mobile, hugging islands, and using her good concealment to her advantage.  Bow in, she's pretty durable, and those 16" guns are devastating even though the shell velocity is very low.

Once I got that down, I started getting a lot better in the NC, and I really enjoy that playstyle.

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NC excels when you get a little closer, go bow in and angle, and only use your front guns. For the most part, just forget that you have a back turret. If you can close to 15K or less, you will do a much better job at hitting your shots. 

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1 hour ago, ksaorsa said:

NC excels when you get a little closer, go bow in and angle, and only use your front guns. For the most part, just forget that you have a back turret. If you can close to 15K or less, you will do a much better job at hitting your shots. 

I think the first common mistake for newer USN BB players that get to Tier VIII, is that they see the great gun range and try to lob those floaty shells to poor effect.  USN BBs prior to this have poor or mediocre gun range.  Only when the notion that, "I have to get closer" set in will they start doing much better.  It's at Tier IX-X where you have guns that are fast, accurate enough at range where trick shots are very possible.  But watching North Carolina, Alabama try to stay at around 18km and lob those shells at moving targets, it's just unfortunate to see if they're on your team.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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If you like the brawling play style of the New Mex,  then maybe Bismarck is for you.  It is a fun brawler, but its main guns are really inaccurate.  I have Iowa, NC, Gnies, and Bis, and my favorite ship is GNEIS.  I love the torps.  The NC is a good boat just follow the advice offered in these other posts, Bow on Baby!  It certainly has a different play style than the KM line.  The Bis will struggle when uptiered because its guns can't hack long to mid range duels.

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I wonder if "bow in" is effective any more. With the abundance of HE spamming ships in the game, bow in is becoming synonymous with being on fire.

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5 hours ago, Radical_20 said:

I wonder if "bow in" is effective any more. With the abundance of HE spamming ships in the game, bow in is becoming synonymous with being on fire.

It depends.  I have matches where I bow on and do fine,  other matches I bow on and everything that hits my decks sets me on fire.  Generally you'll only catch frontal fires but you'll get the occasional odd shot that manages to set your backside on fire.  Sometimes I just melt and do little to assist the team,  other times I tank until the end of the match.  I think a lot of that has to do with Des Moines,  they just seem to eat through my T8 and 9 BB's hit point pull with a vengeance.

As for NC,  her big downside is those floaty shells.  Going back and forth between different battleships makes it hard to use her since you get used to having flater arcs and then you get to her and things hit the stratosphere before plummeting back to the ocean far behind whatever you were aiming for.

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On 6/24/2018 at 10:55 AM, Radical_20 said:

I wonder if "bow in" is effective any more. With the abundance of HE spamming ships in the game, bow in is becoming synonymous with being on fire.

Bow in fighting has always been only a viable move for certain situations.  It's best when the opponents you're fighting are very few in count, best in a 1-on-1 kind of fight.  But if you take your ship to go bow on in front of half the enemy team, what do you expect to happen?

 

The very first, most important rule is not put your ship under heavy focus fire by something like 3+ enemies.  The more above that the worse off you will be.

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The North Carolina is a great ship and it teaches you the foundations that you would need for Iowa and Montana. With the North Carolina, you have hard hitting main guns and reasonably good concealment. You use these two aspects to position yourself at medium ranges, around 12-16 km, where you can land some devastating salvos even against moderately angled targets. Remember that if an enemy battleship is moderately angled, shoot a bit higher into the superstructure, and you'll still do considerably damage. Wiggle and use your concealment, but don't get too close, or you'll find it difficult to turn out and disengage. While staying bow-in is perfectly viable, don't pigeonhole yourself into only using that tactic, as mobility will be an important aspect of the Iowa and especially the Montana.

To be honest, I found the North Carolina to be more comfortable and reliable to use than the Iowa, but that's because the vast majority of my battles in the Iowa was when she had the old high citadel where an entire deck above the machinery/magazines counted towards the citadel height and volume.

Edited by icyplanetnhc
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On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 12:55 PM, Radical_20 said:

I wonder if "bow in" is effective any more. With the abundance of HE spamming ships in the game, bow in is becoming synonymous with being on fire.

I was thinking about this some more today.  Obviously it's situational. And being outnumbered is always a situation to stay out of.

But beyond the "No duh" simplicity of that. Bow in is something, once done, you have to commit to. Once bow in.. You're pretty much stuck there, win or loose. Bow in is also time consuming. It can be a long battle of attrition; whittling down the opponent over time.You can't really get out of it, unless you just get lucky enough to find an island infront and slightly beside you, so you can power forward and duck behind the island.

And we know the islands are never where you expect them to be. :cap_haloween:

But back to my original point, with the added number of HE spammers in the game, I find the number of times I can afford to go bow in are fewer and farther between. Will additional HE ships render this tactic for NC obsolete?

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16 hours ago, Radical_20 said:

I was thinking about this some more today.  Obviously it's situational. And being outnumbered is always a situation to stay out of.

But beyond the "No duh" simplicity of that. Bow in is something, once done, you have to commit to. Once bow in.. You're pretty much stuck there, win or loose. Bow in is also time consuming. It can be a long battle of attrition; whittling down the opponent over time.You can't really get out of it, unless you just get lucky enough to find an island infront and slightly beside you, so you can power forward and duck behind the island.

And we know the islands are never where you expect them to be. :cap_haloween:

But back to my original point, with the added number of HE spammers in the game, I find the number of times I can afford to go bow in are fewer and farther between. Will additional HE ships render this tactic for NC obsolete?

It's only obsolete if you put your ship in a focus fire position.  Try something that Moskva players frequently do.  Use islands to shield you, limiting the amount of attackers that can fling shells at you.  Or you can sail in places where large islands will disrupt LOS to a bunch of the reds while you are still in open water fighting only a portion of them.

 

Position is everything in WoWS, regardless of what kind of ship you use.

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On ‎6‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 12:40 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

It's only obsolete if you put your ship in a focus fire position.  Try something that Moskva players frequently do.  Use islands to shield you, limiting the amount of attackers that can fling shells at you.  Or you can sail in places where large islands will disrupt LOS to a bunch of the reds while you are still in open water fighting only a portion of them.

 

Position is everything in WoWS, regardless of what kind of ship you use.

Ok.. Let me try again.

Let's say it's totally one-on-one. There are no more ships left on either side. This eliminates "Focus fire." It's strictly One-on-One.

 

Even then, if the NC goes Bow-on to the opponent, if that opponent is an HE spammer, of which so many have been added of late, the NC's "bow on" approach is no longer a valid tactic.

 

My point, and I'll try to say it clearly this time... is that the number of situations where bow-on is a valid strategy is becoming a smaller percentage of strategic situations.

That's ALL I'm trying to say. Nothing more than that.  I am NOT suggesting the situational awareness, positioning, and all the other things aren't important. ALL that I'm saying is that the bow-on strategy is becoming less and less of a valid choice.

Can we at least agree on that?

 

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3 hours ago, Radical_20 said:

Ok.. Let me try again.

Let's say it's totally one-on-one. There are no more ships left on either side. This eliminates "Focus fire." It's strictly One-on-One.

 

Even then, if the NC goes Bow-on to the opponent, if that opponent is an HE spammer, of which so many have been added of late, the NC's "bow on" approach is no longer a valid tactic.

 

My point, and I'll try to say it clearly this time... is that the number of situations where bow-on is a valid strategy is becoming a smaller percentage of strategic situations.

That's ALL I'm trying to say. Nothing more than that.  I am NOT suggesting the situational awareness, positioning, and all the other things aren't important. ALL that I'm saying is that the bow-on strategy is becoming less and less of a valid choice.

Can we at least agree on that?

 

LOL then the answer is still simple, especially now, in your very specific scenario, you are fighting a Cruiser.  That is exactly what you're complaining about right?  Especially with the statement "if that opponent is an HE spammer, of which so many have been added of late."  Because lots of new Cruisers have been introduced.

 

So.  North Carolina vs Cruiser.

 

Keep AP slotted.

Shoot at the Cruiser until it's dead.

It can maneuver all it wants, but if you know how to aim, you'll hit and eventually do big damage.

They can be dancing, kiting, you can hit Cruisers in the stern and you'll still citadel them.

They try to angle towards you?  You have 406mm guns, smash their bow for penetrating damage, don't aim for hull because they'll auto-bounce at such angles.

 

What to do against fires?  Even simpler.

Bow on still works.  How?

Because you limit the profile that can be hit with HE shells and fires caused.

If you are bow on, well angled, the most any HE + Fires based attacker can do against you is 2 fires at the same time.  That's easy.  The bow and forward superstructure can be set on fire, nothing more.  VERY EASY to manage in a 1-on-1 situation.

However, if you like to flash sides, then just like eating AP shells, it's just as bad with HE shells.  How?

Because by showing more of the sides of the ship, you expose all 4 zones to be put on fire.  Bow, Stern, Fwd & Aft Superstructure.  If you run Fire Prevention trait, then the Superstructure zone is only 1 zone, not 2.  Bow on works still.

Let 1 fire burn out.

Use Damage Control Party when you got 2+ fires.

Repair Party heals back all Fire Damage done on you.

 

Cruiser is dead.

North Carolina / Battleship moves on.

 

But I already got a got a gut feeling, "Well Haze, that's all well and good, but what about a British BB spewing HE?"

LOL that's simple for North Carolina.

You got 11.8km detection range in Full Stealth Build.

1-on-1 situation again?  Sure!

Point towards direction of RN BB and sail for it.

Hold fire.

Sail towards the British Battleship.

Only open up and give up your concealment when the RN BB gives itself up or you run into each other at short ranges, because NC has stealth that can play at shorter ranges against RN BBs than most other Battleships.

Just keep the fighting in nasty distances.

Keep using the AP because RN BBs have very bad plating of 32mm all around.  No 50mm decks.  Just keep planting AP into them and they eat Penetrations galore.

Dealing with Fires?  Repeat the same thing I mentioned already against Cruisers.

Do not oblige the RN BB with a long ranged duel.  Make it that they have to get into North Carolina's 11.8km to detect her and fight her.

 

It's very easy.  In a 1-on-1 case, it becomes child's play as you are no longer worried about multiple attackers.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 1:09 PM, ep0xi said:

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks all!

Iowa primarily upgrades the North Carolina's guns and survivability. It plays very similarly though.

Mid to long range is where you want to be. Preferably just outside of its detection range. The good thing about the Iowa is that its guns can more reliably hit a target at range. It may be my own opinion, but the shells seem faster and get to a target quicker than North Carolina. I've done well to snipe from afar or out past the 15km range.

Aside from that, the default hulls are painfully unresponsive. They take forever to shift the rudder even with the upgrades and as such is not advised to use it in brawling. In addition, it carries over the North Carolina's weak side armor. So keep the nose pointed at the enemy at all costs no matter the range.

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On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 3:11 PM, HazeGrayUnderway said:

LOL then the answer is still simple, especially now, in your very specific scenario, you are fighting a Cruiser.  That is exactly what you're complaining about right?  Especially with the statement "if that opponent is an HE spammer, of which so many have been added of late."  Because lots of new Cruisers have been introduced.

First, I'm not complaining. Not at all. Just making an observation.

Let's say I have 100 marbles. 10 marbles are yellow, and the other 90 marbles are blue. The yellow marbles represent a strategic scenario where bow in, is a good idea.... 10 percent. The blue marbles represent when bow in isn't a good idea.... 90 percent.

Now, let's add 100 more blue marbles.

The number of yellow marbles has stayed the same, but now, expressed as a percentage, what was 10 percent, has declined to 5 percent.

 

I'm just picking numbers out of the air for sake of example.. So don't criticize please.

 

This is what I'm trying to express about the NC (and Iowas too) and using bow in as a tactic. Bow in isn't as useful of an option any more because there are more and more scenarios where it isn't. Because, over the last couple years, more and more ships have been added where bow-in isn't a good option against them. Because the NC will find itself in more and more scenarios, the odds (percentage chance) of coming across one where bow-in is a good idea, has decreased. Again, because the number of scenarios has increased.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Radical_20 said:

First, I'm not complaining. Not at all. Just making an observation.

Let's say I have 100 marbles. 10 marbles are yellow, and the other 90 marbles are blue. The yellow marbles represent a strategic scenario where bow in, is a good idea.... 10 percent. The blue marbles represent when bow in isn't a good idea.... 90 percent.

Now, let's add 100 more blue marbles.

The number of yellow marbles has stayed the same, but now, expressed as a percentage, what was 10 percent, has declined to 5 percent.

 

I'm just picking numbers out of the air for sake of example.. So don't criticize please.

 

This is what I'm trying to express about the NC (and Iowas too) and using bow in as a tactic. Bow in isn't as useful of an option any more because there are more and more scenarios where it isn't. Because, over the last couple years, more and more ships have been added where bow-in isn't a good option against them. Because the NC will find itself in more and more scenarios, the odds (percentage chance) of coming across one where bow-in is a good idea, has decreased. Again, because the number of scenarios has increased.

 

Bow on was fine even in the past.

Bow on is fine right now.

Bow on is fine for the future.

All because that this game is BB-heavy in population.

 

The only way bow on tactics will be rendered useless is if WG nerfs BB bow armor.  

Spoiler

 

https://worldofwarships.eu/en/news/public-test/public-test-0512/

"The armour thickness of standard Tier VIII-X battleships has been decreased.
This change will allow players to penetrate these ships in their bows when using large-calibre AP shells. Their previous armour thickness values allowed players to turn their bows towards the enemy, especially in high tier battles, and decrease or even fully negate any damage by AP shells. This resulted in players deviating from the intended role of the ship class."

Obviously WG backed off from doing this.

 

 

There may be new HE slinging ships, but WoWS is still a traditional Battleship-heavy game.  That alone ensures bow on, angling tactics will still be valid.

 

The threat of HE has actually gone down considerably.  Were you around for when Stealth Fire used to be in the game?  Cruisers and Destroyers heavily featured Stealth Fire, and the shell choice was HE.  Numerous Cruisers and many DDs used to be able to fire at ranges where they could not be spotted.  Some Premium DDs & Cruisers were sold because of this feature.

 

When WG did away with Stealth Fire, it was the single-greatest, mass Battleship buff ever done in the game.  I can sail my BB and no longer have to worry about a Zao Stealth Firing at me from long range.  I can sail my BB and no longer have to worry about USN & IJN Destroyers firing a stream of shells at me from stealth.  And that's on top of their torpedoes.  I can sail my BB and no longer have to worry about a single Gearing, Fletcher hosing my BB down with gunfire via Stealth Fire.  BB Life got so much simpler, easier, safer when Stealth Fire was removed.

 

And even in those Stealth Fire days, Bow on tactics, angling was still a thing, because you still had many Battleships to contend with.

Today, Battleships are still the most common things out there, and so, Bow on tactics, angling is still a thing.

 

Besides, being bow on, sharply angled to an HE threat is what you want to do.  This only fails if you put yourself in torpedo-soup waters or put your ship into a terrible focus fire spot.

 

As for the amount of Cruisers ATM, that's a temporary fad because of the USN Cruiser Split.  It will die down to normal numbers eventually, and we will be back to 4-6 BBs, 3-4 DDs, and the rest being Cruisers, per match again.  As with all new ships, line spits, new ship lines, there's a big uptick in play for new ships, and of course, the eventual lessening of their numbers.

 

And bow on, angling will still be fine through all this.

Edited by HazeGrayUnderway

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On 5/30/2018 at 11:09 AM, ep0xi said:

I have a quick question for all the pros out there, which certainly is not me.

I started out grinding the US BB line. I had a great time with the New Mexico and Colorado, then I got to the North Carolina..... and I suck with it. I am just terrible! I have grinded up enough free XP with my Tirpitz to get the Iowa.

With my Tirpitz I enjoy my games, make my hits and just overall have more success. Because of that success I am now up to Gneisenau in the German line as well.

So my question is this, does the Iowa play more like the Colorado in terms of its shooting arcs? Or am I walking in to another North Carolina? If so I may just continue up the German line and go for the Bismarck and on.

I did enjoy the US line more than the German up until now, I am not the brawler type. But it is growing on me I suppose.

 

Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks all!

(I also have a tier 7 UK BB which is an option as well, but I enjoy seeing the big hits from AP!)

7

You will do better in Iowa.

I looked into your BB play stats, you are good shooter with 24% hit rate. This is quite good for an 800 battle player. However, your stats show a conflict result. Here is your main battery hit ratio for your most played ship:

Tirpitz: 24%

Bismarck: 25%

North Carolina: 21%

Colorado: 18%

Giulio Cesare: 27%

Gneisenau: 26%

People have BETTER gun hit rate with North Carolina, due to its 2.0 sigma and steep landing angle (compare a 4-iron and a lob wedge, you would know which is more accurate). Your numbers show the opposite. The number shows that the faster the shell travels, the better you do (please use wowsft.com to check the shell speed, krupp, drag, etc). Both Colorado and North Carolina have very slow, yet very accurate gun ballistic, the rest ships are fast bullet shotgun (except Cesare which has flat tragectory, yet accurate gun, which explains the highest hit ratio). The result shows that you are not very used to the USN slow plunging, yet very accurate gun. While playing USN BB, you need to lead the target by a lot, predict where it would turn, know their turning delay/radius, and shoot at that spot.

Iowa's gun is more flat than NC's gun, but not by much. So the good news is that you will do better with Iowa, and the bad news is - you won't do as good as Bismarck. You need to train yourself using USN guns. However, the training is totally worthy.

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